2420 Issues

[LeeG]

The ambient light level must exist for at least 3.5 minutes before the Motion Sensor will signal a change of the Dusk/Dawn node. I have seen it take longer.

 

Is the Motion Sensor in Night Only mode or Always? One user reported not seeing changes to Dusk/Dawn when running in Always mode. The rest of his Motion Sensors did show a change in Always mode.

 

What hardware level is the MS and do you know the firmware level?

 

You could put the MS into linking mode and do a Show Device Links Table and a Compare to see if all the link records are present.

[dano]

I let the MS go through two days of light/dark. I also made sure the MS is in the Night Only mode. Still no Dusk/Dawn status is displayed (still blank). The unit says "5011 Rev 2.0" on the back.

Here's the link table

0FF8 : E2 01 18.D0.31 FF 1F 01

0FF0 : E2 02 18.D0.31 FF 1F 02

0FE8 : E2 03 18.D0.31 FF 1F 03

0FE0 : 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00 (not present when compared) - this must be the Dusk/Dawn

[LeeG]

Dano

 

This is the Dusk/Dawn link record which is present and correct.

 

0FF0 : E2 02 18.D0.31 FF 1F 02

 

The record that does not match the Compare operation is the End Of List record in the Motion Sensor. The ISY database does not contain the equivalent of the End Of List record as it would just take up space. Except to mark the end of the list it serves no functional purpose as far as the Motion Sensor sending Dusk/Dawn messages.

 

The other requirement for the Motion Sensor Dusk/Dawn message to be processed by the ISY PLM is the corresponding Responder link record in the PLM. It will look like this

 

A2 02 aa bb cc xx xx xx

 

where aa bb cc is the Insteon address of the Motion Sensor. The values in the last three bytes, xx xx xx, do not matter, they are not functional. This record is much harder to find as the PLM could have hundreds of link records and there is no Compare function. If this record is in the PLM the Motion Sensor is not sending Dusk/Dawn messages.

 

The Dusk/Dawn light level could be set at either extreme and not triggering a change in light level. Set the Dusk/Dawn level to something in the middle such as 128 and repeat the test, assuming the A2 02 ..... link record is in the PLM. With a value of 128 for the Dusk/Dawn level the Motion Sensor can be placed under a desk lamp for at least 5 minutes. Then covered with an opaque covering such as a thick black cloth for at least 5 minutes. If the Dusk/Dawn message is not received after a few iterations of light to dark to light the Motion Sensor is not sending the Dusk/Dawn message. Be sure the Motion Sensor is close to a Dual Band device and not stuck in a drawer to create Dark.

[dano]

LeeG

Sorry for the delay but I've been out of town. I originally had the MS set (default) to 128. I've also tried a setting at the high-end (200) and low-end (60) with no change (still blank). The MS is sitting two feed from the PLM. Any idea how to identify the issue is with the PLM, MS or ISY?

[dano]

LeeG

BTW....the PLM link record is showing:

0003 : A2 02 14.99.1B 10 01 00

[LeeG]

The link records in the Motion Sensor and the PLM are good assuming 18.D0.31 is the PLM address and 14.99.1B is the Motion Sensor address. If the Motion Sensor is signaling motion then the RF path is good also. That only leaves the Motion Sensor itself.

[dano]

I tried more more thing. I removed the remote management jumper (5) along with installing Night-Only mode jumper (3). The MS is now functioning properly. I get both on/off status depending on the light. This is telling me there is an issue with remote management (either with the MS or ISY). Since I don't have Insteon HouseLinc software installed I wasn't able to verify if its the MS or ISY remote management configuration error. Can you verify?

[LeeG]

I can confirm my Motion Sensors send Dusk/Dawn messages. I install every release and beta that comes out but I am sure I do not test MS configuration on each one. ISY 3.2.3 is my current beta and I can confirm the Motion Sensor sends a Dusk/Dawn On and Off after setting the Darkness Sensitivity to 100. I traced the operation and the 100 (0x64) value is stored where I expect to be.

 

This a read of the Motion Sensor data to confirm the data was set after setting the Darkness Sensitivity to 100 (0x64).

 

02 51 13 F2 57 19 70 06 11 2F 00 00 01 00 07 01 50 10 01 34 1E 7F 03 64 C9

 

EDIT: I turned out the light and covered the Motion Sensor with an opaque cloth. After the Dusk/Dawn On was received I uncovered the Motion Sensor and turned the light back on. The MS sent the Dusk/Dawn Off after about 5 minutes.

[andyf0]

FWIW, I recently installed 2 of these and neither report dusk/dawn status either. However, I am not using these in "night only" mode, so I thought this was normal. I do run the latest firmware as they released and currently on 3.2.3.

[LeeG]

The Motion Sensor I have been using for the tests is firmware v.3A. This Motion Sensor sends Dusk/Dawn messages independent of Night Only mode. I was in Always node when I ran yesterdays tests to confirm the Motion Sensor was sending Dusk/Dawn On/Off messages at the Dark Sensitivity of 100.

[andyf0]

Can't find f/w version anywhere for my motion sensors but I've been doing some experimenting.

 

It appears (to me) that Dusk.Dawn is not sent if the sensor is on. Since I only use my MSs to detect occupancy and not to turn anything on or off, I've set the timeout to 15 mins. Also, since it's getting hot in Houston, the shutters are mostly closed.

 

Since I ran the tests while I was home, the sensors were on pretty much all of the time, except this morning I was doing some sprinkler work and they all timed out. When I came inside I noticed one of the Dusk.Dawn nodes was on. So I opened up the shutters in the bedroom and stayed out, sure enough the Dusk.Dawn on that MS showed up as off.

 

I'm not saying these are definitive experiments, just what it seemed like what was happening.

 

Edit: I'm more convinced now that Dusk.Dawn isn't sent out when the sensor is on.

Two rooms, one sensor off, one on. The room with the sensor that is off updates Dusk.Dawn fine. The room with the sensor on doesn't.

[LeeG]

andyf0

 

Thanks for the additional information. Can you indicate the configuration being used. I think

 

Occupancy mode

Always

Timeout 15 minutes

On Only ??

 

I'd like to set mine up with the exact same options to see if I can reproduce the no Dusk/Dawn messages.

 

Thanks

[andyf0]

Occupancy Mode: Not sure what that is but it sends ON only once when motion detected, then OFF after timeout

Timeout: 15 mins

Night Mode Off, always sends.

 

Both setup the same way, well actually the timeout on one is 14 mins. I've found when both timeout together invariably one of the OFFs is drowned out by the other OFF.

[andyf0]

The one thing I can't figure out is if the MS detects Dusk.Dawn changes but just doesn't send them until the sensor is off, or whether the sensor has to be off for it to detect changes.

 

It did send the Dusk.Dawn changes about 3.5 to 5 minutes after the sensor turned off.

[LeeG]

Sorry, Occupancy mode is what the ISY Set Options labels "Sensing Mode" with either "As motion is sensed" (Occupancy mode) or "Only after timeout". The sales level information refers to it as Motion / Occupancy Sensor. I think "Sensing Mode" is how the internal specifications refer to it.

 

I'll set up one of my Motion Sensors with your set up and see if I can answer the question about Dusk/Dawn On/Off versus Sensor On state.

 

Thanks for the information.

[Xathros]

Lee-

 

I'd be interested to know the results of your experiment with the motion sensor. I'm almost ready to reinstall my 5 2420's in my new place and knowing how this actually works may help improve my program logic.

 

Thanks for all of the time and effort you put in here. I certainly have learned a lot reading your posts.

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

Xathros

 

Apologies for the slow answer. I was side tracked with I2CS work.

 

I can confirm that my motion sensor does not send a Dusk/Dawn Off message while in a Timeout interval. A 20 minute timeout value was established with the motion sensor being placed under a bright light to insure Dawn was being sensed. The Dusk/Dawn Off message was sent 3.5 minutes after the Motion Off when the 20 minute timeout interval expired. With a normal 3.5 minute delay before the Dusk/Dawn Off was sent it appears the motion sensor can count down only one thing at a time. Looks like it cannot (or does not) countdown the 3.5 minutes required for an ambient light level change while counting down the timeout interval.

[Xathros]

Lee-

 

No problem and thank you.

 

At least it doesn't forget about it entirely. Better late than never right ?

 

So then, if the sensor is in occupancy mode, it won't send dusk/dawn changes until the ambient light threshold has been passed AND there has been no motion detected for 3.5mins ?

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

I would phrase it this way, the ambient light level must exist for at least 3.5 minutes past the Dusk/Dawn threshold. The minimum 3.5 minutes is designed to prevent the motion sensor from cycling the Dusk/Dawn messages from passing car lights, clouds, etc.

 

From testing results if the motion sensor is busy timing the Off command flow it waits until the timeout interval has expired before starting the 3.5 minute timer. When running in Occupancy mode (Sensing Mode unchecked) there would not likely be any Off commands requested so the timeout interval would not enter the picture.

 

I would look at the Dusk/Dawn message as an approximate indication, not something that is going to happen precisely at 3.5 minutes after something.

 

EDIT:

 

here is an example where the Dusk/Dawn Off came slightly more than 1 minute after the last motion On as there are no Off commands requested in this test. The motion sensor had been move under a lamp some time before.

 

Mon 04/16/2012 12:37:50 PM : [ 13 F2 57 1] DON 1

 

Mon 04/16/2012 12:38:52 PM : [ 13 F2 57 2] DOF 2

[Xathros]

Excellent. It sounds like I will be able to tell within 6-10 minutes if the light threshold has been reached in either direction.

 

Thanks again Lee.

 

-Xathros