3-way status LED update issue.

[scotcarter]

Hi all, new to Insteon but many year veteran of X10. I am currently swapping out my outdated X10 system Insteon and running into some annoying issues.

 

Currently my main issue is with status’ being updated.

 

Here’s the setup: Main bedroom, 3-way circuit. One switch at bath door and one at hallway door. I have the switches linked properly now (after tech call to Smarthome) so that either will turn light on and off and the status led under each responds accordingly. Now where my lack of knowledge comes, I am using Mobilinc pro and can send an on command to say switch 1 and the light comes on. Both switches indicated that the light is on but only switch 1 shows on inside mobilinc or the devices page in the ISY. How can I get both switches to show the proper status? I tried making a program to check the status of 1 and turn 2 on or off as needed. And another to check switch 2 and turn 1 on or off as needed. This worked a little but then the two programs started fighting and wouldn’t stop flashing the bedroom light!

Anyway thanks for any help you can offer.

[scotcarter]

OK, just read this from another post:

 

Define a single ISY Scene. Add the two switches as Controllers in the single ISY Scene. This will cross link the two switches such that either switch controls the load and the status LEDs of both switches stay in sync.

 

To operate both devices from the ISY or MobiLinc turn the ISY Scene On/Off. Turning an individual device On/Off has no affect on other devices that may be linked to the individual device.

 

Update: devices should only be linked with the ISY. Linking with the Set button creates links the ISY is not aware of. The links can eventually be deleted or overlaid by ISY activity.

 

 

 

I did make the links at the switches themselves before ever adding them to the ISY. On the isy I clicked start linking and then pressed the set button on one of the switches. The ISY gave me the option of adding all devices linked with that switch and to keep those links. That was the option I choose, so doesn't that mean that the ISY does know about the links that were made at the switches themselves? I'm still trying to figure all this out.

[LeeG]

"so doesn't that mean that the ISY does know about the links"

 

Yes. Below the device entries in the My Lighting tree are Scenes. There should be a Scene with a name such as "Scene 4" for example. The ISY creates these Scene definitions based on links it finds in devices during the device add process when the "keep existing links" option is selected.

 

Find the Scene xxxx that represents the two referenced switches. Click on one of the device nodes in the My Lighting tree. To the right side of the node display in the right Membership pane is a list of Scenes the switch is a part of.

 

Use this Scene to turn both devices On/Off together.

 

Update: suggest spending some time renaming the generated Scene names to something meaningful.

[scotcarter]

Looking at my ISY now and the only scene I have is Auto DR. When I click on either switch in the tree all I see for either is switch name, is controller for, is responder for.

That's it nothing else. When I was on the phone with the Smarthome tech guy he said we were setting up a scene so the LEDs would stay in sync. This was done at the switches thought. So do I need to create a Master Bedroom Light scene and add these two switches to it since it didn't create when I added the devices? Remember I only added one device the other showed up on its on with the first one.

 

Just added a new scene and this has happened both times I have played around with scenes. I click on new scene, type a name, hit enter, the new name screen goes away but no scene shows up in the tree. I close the admin console and open it back up and there it is. Any idea why the new scene doesn't show up until after I restart the console?

[LeeG]

What is being used for AV?

 

Avast and Kaspersky are two that often block updates from being pushed out from the ISY to the Admin Console.

[scotcarter]

I use Nortons.

[LeeG]

What level of Java?

 

What does Help | About show for Firmware and UI?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello scotcarter,

 

Please do not hesitate to contact our tech support team (links below) in case you are still having problems.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Xathros]

Looking at my ISY now and the only scene I have is Auto DR. When I click on either switch in the tree all I see for either is switch name, is controller for, is responder for.

That's it nothing else. When I was on the phone with the Smarthome tech guy he said we were setting up a scene so the LEDs would stay in sync. This was done at the switches thought. So do I need to create a Master Bedroom Light scene and add these two switches to it since it didn't create when I added the devices? Remember I only added one device the other showed up on its on with the first one.

 

Just added a new scene and this has happened both times I have played around with scenes. I click on new scene, type a name, hit enter, the new name screen goes away but no scene shows up in the tree. I close the admin console and open it back up and there it is. Any idea why the new scene doesn't show up until after I restart the console?

 

scotcarter-

 

I find that all new scenes that I create will appear at the very bottom of the device/folder/scene list in the order created until I quit and reload the console at which point they appear in the proper alpha sort position.

 

Make sure you have scrolled to the bottom of the list to see if they show there.

 

-Xathros

[scotcarter]

Firmware and UI = Insteon_UD994v.3.2.6

When I go into control panel the Java, then on the java tab, then the user tab, I see two;

a 1.7 platform with product of 1.7.0_04 and a 1.6 platform with a product of 1.6.0_30. Both are checked as enabled. On the system tab I see just the 1.7.

The about Java page show Version 7 Update 4 build 1.7.0_04-b22

 

 

Just tried to make another scene and this time it did show up in the list immediately. Go figure!

 

 

OK, created a scene last night using ISY, added both switches. When I turn on or off the master bedroom scene both switches show on or off inside Mobilinc. If I turn on the master bedroom scene from Mobilinc both switches show on within Mobilinc but if I use one of the switches itself to turn off the light, only that switches shows off inside Mobilinc and the scene now shows 50%.

 

Like I said my Insteon setup right now is very small. Only 4 switches total installed. Only 3 scenes total. 1 is the ISY scene, the Auto DR, and the Master Bedroom I created last night. I’m going to keep reading and performing some trial and error while I learn all of this. I am game to try anything you guys throw at me.

 

The program I setup that was working OK went like this:

If status of 1 is on

Then turn 2 on else turn 2 off

Also had one for switch 2 just opposite of switch 1. This was working until they both tried to run at the same time, then my light started flashing until I disabled the programs. It worked for 2 days!

 

I was trying to think of a creative program that would monitor both switches but not fight like my last two did. I was thinking of something like if status of 1 or 2 is on, the set 1 and 2 on, else set 1 and 2 off. Not sure if I turn the switch off at the switch if the second switch will respond before the ISY sees an on in one and not the other and run the program. Essentially keeping the light on always!

[LeeG]

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the Programs. When they are correctly cross-linked manual operation at either switch will cause the other to follow. Operating the Scene either in MobiLinc or the Admin Console will cause both switches to operate together.

 

In Insteon if you programmatically control just one switch the objective is for that switch only to respond. That is the way Insteon is architected to work.

 

It seems like the Programs are trying to override the Insteon architecture. If that is what you are trying to accomplish try using If Control rather than If Status. If Status causes a Program to be triggered any time the Status changes. This means that when Program 1 changes the Status of a device it can cause Program 2 to trigger because the Status has changed. Using If Control triggers the Program when a specific command is received from the device, not a state change. Changing the Status of a switch does not trigger the Program that is checking for a specific command (If Control) from that device.

 

Again, it seems like the Programs are trying to defeat the way Insteon is designed to work. Certainly can be done, just not sure why.

 

Also note that Java 7 is known to cause problems. I would go back to Java 6. At least make sure the latest Java 7 build is installed.

[scotcarter]

It's starting to make since. I remember when I was playing around at the house. When I would manual flick switch 1 on, I would hear the relay click in and the status LED would change along with the staus LED of the other switch. If I would then walk across the room to the other switch and flick it on (even though the LED already shows it as on) I would then hear the relay click in. So I guess even though the LED shows on the device itself really isn't. Am I correct in assuming this?

 

I was just trying to accomplish having to only open the My Devices area inside Mobilinc to control my lights and have them all display accurate status's. It appears that wont be the case for rooms with multiple switches controling 1 light. As it is right now I can open the scenes tab and turn my bedroom on or off and both display right. But if I turn it on from the scene and turn it off from a local switch then only that one switch displays an accurate status in the My devices tab of Mobilinc leaving me to wonder is it really on or off.

 

Another example was I turned on switch 1 from My Devices or the switch itself, the light comes on, both physical switches LEDs turn off indicating the light is on. Mobilinc shows switch 1 as on and switch 2 as off. I then turn the light off at physical switch 2, the light goes off and both switches LEDs come back on. Mobililinc shows still shows switch1 as on and switch 2 as off.

 

I just though that if the status LEDs follow each other shouldn't the status's inside the ISY and Mobilinc also follow? I truely appreciate your insight here. I dont want you to think that I am just being argumentative. Just not making sense to me. It will soon click it. No pun intended!!!

[oberkc]

I was trying to think of a creative program that would monitor both switches but not fight like my last two did. I was thinking of something like if status of 1 or 2 is on, the set 1 and 2 on, else set 1 and 2 off.

 

I am with LeeG on this one. You are fighting the core design of insteon here. Furthermore, creating a program to perform a scene function will introduce a lot of opportunities to enter these endless programming loops (as you have experienced). In addition to all that, introducing mobilinc into the equation eliminates the use of "control" as a program condition (I believe control conditions work only when a device is physically activated).

 

If you want to control the scene with mobilinc, control the scene rather than individual devices within the scene, even if those individual devices are defined as "controllers". Remember, scene controllers behave as controllers only when directly activated (button press). They behave as responders when commanded externally, such as via the ISY or via moblinc.

 

Everything you describe makes me think your system is operating properly.

[LeeG]

"When I would manual flick switch 1 on, I would hear the relay click in and the status LED would change along with the staus LED of the other switch. If I would then walk across the room to the other switch and flick it on (even though the LED already shows it as on) I would then hear the relay click in. So I guess even though the LED shows on the device itself really isn't. Am I correct in assuming this?"

 

This is a defective switch (or wiring problem). The Status LED must follow the relay. If the LED says it is On but the Relay is Off the switch is defective or wired wrong. There is no means of separating the physical state of the relay from the status LED. What type of switch is it, ICON, SwitchLinc, ToggleLinc, etc?

 

The above could be an error in how the normal 3-way wiring was converted to use Insteon switches in a multi way circuit.

 

Don't worry about being argumentative. It is never a problem getting a situation clarified. I've been doing this along time and still put in the wrong information at times.

 

What I was going to post here is an example of a Program using If Control.

 

If

Control 'ICON Dimmer 1' is switched On

And Control 'ICON Dimmer 1' is not switched Off

 

Then

Set 'ICON Relay 1' On

 

Else

Set 'ICON Relay 1' Off

[oberkc]

So I guess even though the LED shows on the device itself really isn't. Am I correct in assuming this?

 

I don't believe this is correct. Given a single button switch (as opposed to a keypad), if the LED indicates on, the device is on (assuming no device failure). To be clear, for some insteon switches, the LED being on indicates the switch is off. There is no way to separate the LED status from the load being controlled by the switch.

[oberkc]

What I was going to post here is an example of a Program using If Control.

 

If

Control 'ICON Dimmer 1' is switched On

And Control 'ICON Dimmer 1' is not switched Off

 

Then

Set 'ICON Relay 1' On

 

Else

Set 'ICON Relay 1' Off

 

LeeG...correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe this program will work when "ICON Dimmer 1" is being activated by mobilinc. I thought a "control" status activated only by direct button presses of the device.

[scotcarter]

Was playing around with the if control and nothing was happening. Then I found out that control only works from the switch and not from the web interface. I also just found out that my scene should have had the switches listed as controllers and not responders. I am going to change them to controllers to see if that helps when I get home since its hard to actually push a button from 60 miles away. It was bugging me that I would turn on the light at my master bath and then turn it off when leaving the room at the hall and Mobilinc not knowing that the light is actually off. Since I want to look in one tab only in Mobilinc then I will make my scenes favorites and the lights with only one controller a favorite. I'll just fill up the favorite tab!!!

[LeeG]

oberkc makes a good point. ICON switches are Off when the single yellow/orange Status LED is On. When the ICON switch is turned On either with the paddle or with a command from another device the single Status LED turns Off.

 

SwitchLinc switches have a lower blue/white LED that indicates the switch is Off. For a Relay SwitchLinc there is only one additional blue/white LED at the very top of the LED array which is On when the Relay is On.

 

Again, with the above convention, the Status LED cannot be separated from the state of the Relay. There is no command, no option, no linking configuration that can change the relationship between the device Status LED and the device Relay.

[oberkc]

Then I found out that control only works from the switch and not from the web interface.

 

That is consistent with my understanding, as well. This is why I believe programmatic solutions will be difficult for your situation.

 

I also just found out that my scene should have had the switches listed as controllers and not responders.

 

Also correct. I am sorry that I failed to recognize that you have not yet come to this realization. This will not solve your original mobilinc problem...you will still need to control the scene from mobilinc. However, the switches will now stay better in sync and should display correctly in mobilinc.

[scotcarter]

Just got home and now things are working like I hoped they would. Original issue was I had no scene setup in the ISY for the two switches. That was made locally at the switches themselves. Then I had them in the scene as responders and not controllers. Now I have them as controllers and things appear to be working as they should.

 

In Mobilinc on the My Devices tab I have all my switches listed including Master Bedroom 1 and Master Bedroom 2 (my 3-way circuit). If I click into either one of them so I can see the different options to control that switch; on, off, fast on, fast off; and turn it on from there, then that switch only shows as on in both Mobilinc and the ISY web interface. But, big BUT here! If I stay on the My Devices screen where all switches are listed and tap the icon for the master bedroom switch 1 or 2 it acts like I turned the scene on or off (toggles) and both switches status react together. YEAH that's was what I was hoping for. I never tried to tap the icons to toggle the lights on or off. This is even better now cause I don't have to leave the devices tab at all but to look at my cameras.

 

Thanks for all yaws help!

 

 

Update: Found only one thing that doesn't seem right but I can live with it. If I send an on command from inside the Mobilinc panel for switch 2 only the light doesn't come on. I can tap switch 2s icon and it does. Switch 1 (has the load) controls it from anywhere. Oh well can't have it all!

[Xathros]

The proper way to accomplish what you want in Mobilinc would be to make the scene for your 3way(s) a favorite(s). Make any other standalone devices favorites then everything you want will be on the favorites page in Mobilinc. You will control the 3way with a scene and the standalone devices as devices. I will have to play with the device icon thing that you mentioned. I don't believe that is the way it was intended to work.

 

-Xathros

 

 

UPDATE: I can confirm the device Icon in MobilincHD (Latest Version) acts as a scene controller for multiway configurations when accessed from a member device's device page.

[InsteonNut]

Hi Xathros and scotcarter,

 

Here's an explanation as to what you are seeing with regards to ICON commands vs. direct device command:

 

The idea is that if you use the ICON controls or switch control (graphic controls) in MobiLinc HD, the action (ON, OFF, etc) should reflect what the real-world device would do if you walked up to it and performed the same ON, OFF, etc action.

 

In the case where devices are controllers of a scene, that means the scene actually gets the ON, OFF, etc command, just like it would in the real-world.

 

If you want to talk just to that device (direct device commands) then you can tunnel into the details of the device and issue the ON, OFF, etc commands from the table menu here to talk just to the device.

 

I hope this helps explain how MobiLinc is operating,

Wes

[Xathros]

Thanks for the explanation Wes. This is a capability I didn't know existed in Mobilinc. I'll have to see if I can simplify any of my configuration using this.

 

-Xathros

[InsteonNut]

Not a problem. Happy to help,

 

Wes

[scotcarter]

I like the way the Icon toggles on and off. Made what I was looking for real simple!