Installing a Generac Generator

[pjjameso]

Looking to do the same install as you with a micro switch to sense when the generator is supplying power. Any further modifications or wish you had done it differently before I embark on this mod?

 

Thanks in advance.

[jzsjr]

My generator is okay but continued to have the issue with the micro sense. I ended up using a relay inside the transfer box hooked to input 1 on a CAI Webcontrol. Since the CAI cannot do ssl email I have it using the webset command and sending information to the ISY which then triggers the email message using ergodic's program (set to look for variable from relay instead of the micro on/off). The CAI is mentioned throughout this forum and on cocoontech forum and is a great device. I've used them at work for years. If your interested I can upload some pics and include some more detail. There was also another thread on this forum where a gentleman used two relays in his generator to tell when the unit was exercising and then when it was with load.

 

thanks,

Jim

[pjjameso]

jzsjr,

 

Looks like im going to have to go the relay and CAI route too.  The micro sense is just not a reliable device and I suffer the same issue of not turning off when power to sense is removed.  I actually pulled wires ito the house from both the utility side and the generator side of the transfer switch such that when utility is on I have 120 on that pair, and when the generator is running I have on the other pair.  This will allow be to test if I have power on both the utility and generator side, generator must be in test mode.

 

Havent worked with the CAI nor webset command so any guidance on how to tie to the relay and trigger the ISY would be appreciated.

[jzsjr]

Pjjameso,

 

If you have not worked with the CAI Webcontrol then I would look at all the threads on http://cocoontech.com/.  Search for CAI, Webcontrol, CAI Webcontrol.  Read anything that RossW post to.  I'm connecting to the inputs on the board using a RossW breakout board found here http://webcontrol.rossw.net/.  This is not necessary but since I use a lot of these boards for work it makes it a cleaner look.  I'm not a very good programmer but get by.  Here is the simple PLC code I'm using for this project.  It post two temperature sensors I have in the house and the Input from the transfer switch relay. 

 

START    

SET RAM2 0  

LOOP:

TSTEQ RAM2 0  

CALLSUB STARTUP   

TSTEQ CTS RAM2  

CALLSUB GENERAC   

TSTEQ CDW 0  

GOTO LOOP   

END    

 

GENERAC:

WEBSET URL1 T1  

DELAY 500   

WEBSET URL2 T2  

DELAY 500   

WEBSET URL3 IP1  

ADD RAM2 60 RAM2 

RET    

 

STARTUP:

SET RAM2 CTS  

RET 

 

This points to the Web Http Get feature in the Notify section of the Webcontrol where I put in the IP of the ISY that ends up sending me the email.  I will try and take some pictures of the set up for you and post them later.

thanks,

Jim

[pjjameso]

Jim,

 

Just received the CAI board.  What do I need to do on the ISY side to allow variables to be set by the CAI?  Is the ISY network module required? 

 

From the CAI manual I see the example to set the ISY URL1 192.168.2.222:80:www:mydomain.com, what the heck is the :www.mydomain.com?

[larryllix]

Jim,

 

Just received the CAI board.  What do I need to do on the ISY side to allow variables to be set by the CAI?  Is the ISY network module required? 

 

From the CAI manual I see the example to set the ISY URL1 192.168.2.222:80:www:mydomain.com, what the heck is the :www.mydomain.com?

No, Network Module not required. The whole thing is set up inside the WC8 board admin console.

 

The instructions are so poorly written in Chinlish that some of them are just wrong and may be completely opposite of what you need to do.

 

Put your ISY IP in the IP address (first column)  (no "http://")

 

Put your ISY rest command and variable access address in the get URL (second column) eg. "/rest/vars/set/2/6/" 

 

Put your ISY admin console user name and password encrypted with Hash64 method found online. Silly method but it just works that way. When you encrypt this makes sure the format is exactly as shown.   "Joe:MyPassword"

 

 

Now in your PLC code when you do a "WEBSET URL1 RAM5" the ISY variable will suddenly update to whatever is in RAM5.

 

Keep in mind this WC8 board does not support 1wire devices well. If you use longer cables the board may stall PLC code for chunks of time and sometimes reboot. This means you really can't have an initialisation setup if you mind it being run at random intervals. From what I can gather the WC8 shares memory between the 1wire bit-banger interface, the WEBSET commands and a few other processes. When the 1wire has errors or retries everything suffers.

 

After about 8-9 firmware updates to make a DS2438 sensor work (sheepwalk SWE3) I gave up on humidity sensing. The WC8 designer has since removed support of the DS2438 on the newer versions of firmware for the WC8 board.

[pjjameso]

Larry,

 

Finally had some free time to work on this project a bit more.  I have been able to get the state variables to change depending upon the TTL input on the WebControl.  However for the life of me I cannot get a program to work and send a text message.  If I tell it to run the If statement the text comes but when the state changes from 0 to 1 it doesnt trigger.  What am I doing wrong?

 

If

        $WebControl_IP1 is 1

 

Then

        Send Notification to 'Me Text' content 'Generator Power On'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[LeeG]

Sounds like the Variable $WebControl_IP1 is an Integer rather than a State variable.   Integer variables do not trigger a Program. 

[pjjameso]

Thanks Lee, your are correct, must have been tired last night!  Found the command have the WebControl send a state variable.

[pjjameso]

I just completed the install of a 20KW Generac generator at the house.

 

This post is just to share the experience as it relates to the ISY and Insteon. I'd also like to thank the several forum users who corresponded with me in advance of my getting the unit as it helped me know what to expect.

 

The Generac unit and whole-house transfer switch are straightforward installs and it only took about a day including the propane piping and so forth. There was debris lodged in the 1/4" propane feed line that took another couple of hours to figure out - it was causing the unit to shut down after starting. But other than that no real install problems. (But I've decided to start a "tray cable is too damn high" party. Residential tray cable is now running about $1 per INCH.)

 

There is one odd part of the design of this unit I will warn you about: that little 6-wire 18ga Generac control line is carrying full 240V line power to the generator unit for it to sense utility power. There is no isolation or step-down, just fuses on each of those 3 lines. No kidding. I discovered this the Bad Way when tying it up and I accidentally nicked through the thin insulation on the bell wire, touched one to the metal flex and spent most a day looking for a very-hard-to-find 5A fast-blow mini fuse. (thank you Fuseco in Laguna Hills, CA.)

 

My main concern was being notified when the generator goes on or off if we're not here via SMS. To do that I wired up an Smarthome Inlinelinc with sense. The Inlinelinc is powered from house power (utility or generator) and its sense lead is tied to one leg of the Generac output, all just simply stuck inside the roomy transfer switch box itself. The Inlinelinc load is of course not connected to anything, we just want the sense.

 

The picture below shows it wired-in at the bottom right-side cabinet, just below the neutral bonding plate in the transfer switch. It is secured with a little velcro on the back and a tie wrap, there are no useable mounting holes. The power for the Inlinelinc is run through the conduit to the main breaker box on the left and tapped from the same breaker that connects up my access points below the breaker panel. I did observe that the Inlinelinc is more fussy than most devices about signal so getting it close to an AP is probably worthwhile.

 

image.jpg

 

This setup also means the Inlinelinc loses power for a few seconds during the switchover. This is harmless and causes no issues.

 

I also did scope the Generac output on advice from several people. The 20KW Guardian is the largest of Generac's true-sine units and I saw absolutely nothing to concern me. No spikes during the transitions and no h/f noise. There is a little visible distortion in the A/C waveform which matches exactly with what I see when I'm on utility power -- just the way the house loads. Frequency bobbles around a bit from 59.4Hz to 60.5Hz. No big deal there either. I have no worries about the Generac causing any problems with Insteon. Everything communicates fine.

 

What does cause an issue is the Generac sense, which bounces around during its cut-in and cool-down phases while the voltage is stabilizing. This causes the Inlinelinc to "jitter" from off to on to off quickly and randomly in those intervals. If you're looking for an SMS text message from this, you'll definitely get a few!

 

I initially tried to solve this with hardware: I breadboarded a little RC-diode circuit to try an smooth all this out, but never could come up with anything reliable. I still don't know if it is because the Inlinelinc sense expects A/C, or there's just too much variability, or I was just tired. I do know for sure my wife was very tired of my testing. Anyway, this is the digital age, so we ought to solve it with software anyway.

 

To fix this we just need a few ISY programs to sense the transitions over a long period, ignoring short on/off sense line changes of a few seconds. I eventually settled on 7 second or less fluctuations and a wait of 90 seconds to determine that the unit is really on or off. There are arguments for other numbers, but these worked fine the first time.

 

These first 5 programs are a little 3-state machine that does the on-off smoothing. They use two state variables: $Generac.On.State to track the state of the state machine itself, and $GeneracCurrentStatus as an "output."

 

//GENERAC.B0 (waiting to come online)
If        $Generac.On.State is 0 
Then        $GeneracCurrentStatus  = 0

//GENERAC.B1 (Generac sense is on. Ignore short off transitions)
If        $Generac.On.State is 1
Then        $GeneracCurrentStatus  = 1

//GENERAC.B1 If
//Off transition on Generac. If not too long then ignore it, o/w reset to B0 after wait
        $Generac.On.State is 2 
Then
        Wait  7 seconds
        $Generac.On.State  = 0

//GENERAC.C1: Jump to state B1 when sense goes high
If        Status  'Generac Sense' is On
    And (
             $Generac.On.State is 0
          Or $Generac.On.State is 2
        ) 
Then        $Generac.On.State  = 1
 
//GENERAC.C2: Jump to state B2 when sense goes off
If        Status  'Generac Sense' is Off
    And $Generac.On.State is 1 
Then
    $Generac.On.State  = 2

These next two programs implement the on and off waiting period. They use $GeneracCurrentStatus as an input and, after 90 seconds of an unchanged $GeneracCurrentStatus, they set the final state variable we're actually interested in: $GeneracIsOn.

 

//GENERAC.C2: Jump to state B2 when sense goes off
If        Status  'Generac Sense' is Off
    And $Generac.On.State is 1 
Then
        $Generac.On.State  = 2

//GeneracGoingLive
If        $GeneracCurrentStatus is 1
Then
        Wait  90 seconds
        $GeneracIsOn  = 1 

//GeneracGoingOff
If        $GeneracCurrentStatus is 0
Then
        Wait  90 seconds
        $GeneracIsOn  = 0

The last program uses $GeneracIsOn and is the one that actually drives the notifications out.

 

//Generac.SendMessage
If        $GeneracIsOn is 1
Then
    Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.On'
Else
    Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.Off'

One more thing I'd like to implement is some way to remotely turn off the generator via the ISY regardless of whether utility power is on or off. It is easy to fire it up by simply opening one of the utility sense leads with a relay, simulating a power failure. But as yet I've found no control point inside the transfer switch where a generator-off can be done easily and it may not be possible. But at $4/gallon for propane and a 250 gal tank, I'd sure like to.

 

Thanks for your code above, I have implemented it along with Webcontrol and it is working well.  One question on your code above.  I get 2 text messages when the generator goes off, believe this is due to your sendmessage code as else statement says to send off text if GeneracIsOn is not equal to 1.  The GeneracIsOn has three states, 1, 2, and 0 so when it changes to 2 or 0 i get the off text.

 

Any thoughts on a fix?

[larryllix]

Thanks for your code above, I have implemented it along with Webcontrol and it is working well.  One question on your code above.  I get 2 text messages when the generator goes off, believe this is due to your sendmessage code as else statement says to send off text if GeneracIsOn is not equal to 1.  The GeneracIsOn has three states, 1, 2, and 0 so when it changes to 2 or 0 i get the off text.

 

Any thoughts on a fix?

//Generac.SendMessage

If 

   $GeneracIsOn is 0

Then

    Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.Off'

Else

    run prgram (if) //Generac.SendMessage1

 

 

//Generac.SendMessage1 (disabled)

If

       $GeneracIsOn is 1

Then

    Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.On'

Else

   run prgram (if) //Generac.SendMessage2

 

 

//Generac.SendMessage2 (disabled)

If

       $GeneracIsOn is 2

Then

    Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.Timing'

Else

     --

[pjjameso]

Thank you.... Will get the hang of this eventually.

[larryllix]

Thank you.... Will get the hang of this eventually.

You could combine the last two if you don't need to differentiate between the states 1 and 2.

 

Remember the slave subroutine programs should be disabled or they can self trigger.

 

 

//Generac.SendMessage1 (disabled)

If

     $GeneracIsOn is 1

OR

      $GeneracIsOn is 2

Then

     Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.On'

Else

     ----

 

Another way to skin this cat.

 

//Generac.SendMessage1 (disabled)

If

     $GeneracIsOn  > 0

Then

     Send Notification to 'steve.sms' content 'Generac.On'

Else

     ----

[grtaylor]

I also did scope the Generac output on advice from several people. The 20KW Guardian is the largest of Generac's true-sine units and I saw absolutely nothing to concern me. No spikes during the transitions and no h/f noise. There is a little visible distortion in the A/C waveform which matches exactly with what I see when I'm on utility power -- just the way the house loads. Frequency bobbles around a bit from 59.4Hz to 60.5Hz. No big deal there either. I have no worries about the Generac causing any problems with Insteon. Everything communicates fine.

 

I just came upon this thread as I've been looking for a whole house solution and I asked Generac if they had any pure sine units and the answer was no, but that their Synergy unit produced the cleanest power.

 

So, true sine or not, the question is, is the Guardian's power 'good enough' and you say yes. That's great. Are there any other Generac Guardian (or Synergy) owners out there who can confirm their HA stuff works perfectly when the house is on backup power? Any other brands or guidance? The output from my Westinghouse portable is so bad any Insteon traffic on the network a) fails to do anything and makes all the Insteon lights flicker.

[EricK]

I have had no issues with my generac quiet source 36kw and insteon with my isy. Only issue I have to sort out is figuring out how to run programs that should have triggered while on backup since some of my devices are not on the generator. We don't lose power very often.

[grtaylor]

thanks Eric. 36 KW and not all devices are powered? wow. that's a big house.

[jacobs-gc]

I just came upon this thread as I've been looking for a whole house solution and I asked Generac if they had any pure sine units and the answer was no, but that their Synergy unit produced the cleanest power.

 

So, true sine or not, the question is, is the Guardian's power 'good enough' and you say yes. That's great. Are there any other Generac Guardian (or Synergy) owners out there who can confirm their HA stuff works perfectly when the house is on backup power? Any other brands or guidance? The output from my Westinghouse portable is so bad any Insteon traffic on the network a) fails to do anything and makes all the Insteon lights flicker.

I have a Generac Guardian 40KW installed in 2001. At that time I was running all X10.  In 2011, I converted to all Insteon (over 200 Insteon address).  I can confirm that the Insteon devices work very well while running on Generac power.  The only problem I have is that, intermittently, the PLM will lockup on transferring power from utility to Generac. The PLM is v92 which is back level (current is 9E) I use the v92 because it has proven to be less susceptible to the ALL-ON problem.

[EricK]

thanks Eric. 36 KW and not all devices are powered? wow. that's a big house.

Large home but the issue was that We have electric heat and the emergency heat strips for two heat pumps pull 10kw each, plus a few for the pump. We have two panels with a sub off of one and ended up putting almost all needed circuits on those.

[Planethill]

I realize this is about the large, "whole house" Generac Generators, but I thought I'd throw in that once running, my smaller Generac XG7000E with manual transfer switch works great with my ISY/Insteon setup as well.

 

Unlike you guys, it has no auto-start or remote capability (although it is electric start). I have often wondered if there would be a way to hook up a relay to the starter switch so I wouldn't have to go outside in a storm to fire her up! But I think there are too many variables. Manual fuel petcock, manual choke, etc.

 

I am envious of you guys!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[someguy]

I just had a generac 22KW guardian generator installed and I was thinking of using the ideas presented in this thread.  I'd like to make sure I understand what you guys are proposing with this INSTEON REMOTE CONTROL MICRO ON/OFF SWITCH ADAPTER:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2443-222-micro-on-off-module.html

 

I would connect it as follows:

 

I would connect the neutral and line (top and bottom poles on the unit) to power that comes from an outlet or other source that would be powered when the house is being powered by EITHER THE GENERATOR OR THE UTILITY.  

 

I would connect the yellow "sense" wire to the positive side in the generator that is only energized when the generator is running.  

 

three questions:

 

1) Am I understanding this correctly?

2) this would send an "on" signal when the generator is running and the rest of the time it would send an "off" signal, right? 

3) does anyone know where I should hook up the yellow wire in my transfer switch?

[someguy]

[someguy]

Ok. Here are several pictures of my set up. I'm not sure I connected the yellow sense to the correct output but I put it in one of the placed I tested for 120 power when the generator was running. Please let me know if this is incorrect. Like I said before, when I had the meter on the output that I have the yellow wire attached to I was reading 123v. I was looking over the installation manual but will look up online how to test the frequency. Here's to hoping the pictures are smaller and oriented.

thanks,

Jim

jzsjr:

where, exactly, did you connect the yellow wire?

[Scottmichaelj]

jzsjr:

where, exactly, did you connect the yellow wire?

 

You ever get things going? I am looking to start this project too myself. However I have a SIEMENS GENTFRSWTCH Automatic Transfer Switch in my SIEMENS Load Center panel.

 

See my post here - https://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1692