smoke detector via iolinc

[rsansev]

I have ac powered (110v) smoke detectors.

If one alarms, the other alarms as well (in other words they are using some protocol to com over the ac wires)

Questions:

 

1) will this interfere w/ insteon

2) is it possible it is using insteon protocol i.e. could plm detect it?

3) if not, how would i be able to fire an event when the smoke detector alarms?

 

p.s. It is my understanding that iolinc supplies its own voltage and that i would not be able to use it...

[Brian H]

1.& 2. Unknown as we don't have enough information on what the sensors are and what they send on the AC power Lines.

I doubt the smoke detectors use anything close to an Insteon protocol in their communications.

 

The I/OLInc is triggered by a dry closure from its Sensor Input to Common.

The small voltage you may have seen mentioned. Is the sensing current used to determine if the sensor is On or Off.

If you can get a dry closure from the smoke detectors. You can trigger an I/OLinc.

I have seen some smoke detector manufacturers make an optional adapter that connects to the wiring to interface with an alarm system. If you know the brand and model. We maybe able to find something.

 

Side note. In the latest beta software there is a Insteon Smoke Sensor {10.0A} listed in the drop down list of modules.

[rsansev]

sorry, my bad:

 

Kidde KN-COSM-IB Hardwire Combination Carbon Monoxide and Smoke Alarm with Battery Backup and Voice Warning, Interconnectable

[LeeG]

Kidde makes Relay Modules (xx120X) for connecting to external devices. Looks like one would be needed for Smoke and one would be needed for CO.

[io_guy]

LeeG is correct.

I have both of the xx120X in my house. The relays close when the alarm goes off. You supply 12V to the relay and wire the other side back to IO. They work great.

http://www.kidde.com/Documents/sheet_re ... odules.pdf

[rsansev]

perfect, thanks guys!

[rsansev]

btw, upon googling, i came upon an interesting discussion of the merits of doing this.

 

http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/1864 ... ge__st__15

 

seems like the proper approach is to use an LV Smoke Detector (LV = low voltage)

[io_guy]

That's a few minutes I'll never get back. They're arguing about 10 different points there.

 

No, a secondary relay shouldn't be used as a replacement for a proper alarm smoke detector - that should be powered from the alarm system to allow for proper power loss protection.

 

But for just automating it back to an ISY, the XX120Xs are perfect. Interconnected detectors, dry contact, what more do you need.

The relays should be wired into an electrical box (since the coil side is 120V). I sent the output side to a terminal strip.

Some of those guys go on about it powering auxiliary devices only - they obviously don't own them. Yes there's a LV powered out but there's also dry contacts perfect for automation. You'll notice that the people who actually owned them on that post said they work great for automation.

[rsansev]

sorry, io_guy, it was quite a bit.

either way, it's a whole lot more painful than just buying an insteon smoke detector and being done with it.

i mean...

i gotta buy the relay, the iolinc and a 12v power supply.

relay and power supply go in the detector and then feed two wires out to the iolinc?

[LeeG]

io_guy

 

Is the 12v supply needed in this case. The I/O Linc Sensor is triggered with GND to Sense. Seems like it would only be necessary to connect Smoke or CO Relay Com and NO to I/O Linc GND and Sense.

[io_guy]

LeeG,

Correct. With a I/O Linc going to ground, 12V wouldn't be needed.

I use the relays with an 8SA so I send 12V through. Sorry for the confusion there - I try to avoid the I/O Lincs since the $/input ratio is quite high.

 

rsansev,

As LeeG pointed out, 12V PS not required (with standard I/O Linc).

I haven't seen the specs on the Insteon detector but the advantage to linking into the Kidde is you get all detectors (interconnected, full house) off the single relay and you can also do carbon monoxide (plus you're not adding any extra detectors). I added the relays near my basement detector so they're not visible.

If you're planning other I/O, put the relays in the basement and pick up a multi I/O unit like a 4x2 or 8SA.

[rsansev]

I decided to go with the 2475S2 as the interface.

This is because you mentioned elsewhere in this forum that it would work AND... i happen to have a spare one floating around.

Lastly, i really am not too concerned about co2 when i am not in the house.

 

Thanks again for all of your help, LeeG & io_guy!

[rsansev]

LeeG,

Correct. With a I/O Linc going to ground, 12V wouldn't be needed.

I use the relays with an 8SA so I send 12V through. Sorry for the confusion there - I try to avoid the I/O Lincs since the $/input ratio is quite high.

 

rsansev,

As LeeG pointed out, 12V PS not required (with standard I/O Linc).

I haven't seen the specs on the Insteon detector but the advantage to linking into the Kidde is you get all detectors (interconnected, full house) off the single relay and you can also do carbon monoxide (plus you're not adding any extra detectors). I added the relays near my basement detector so they're not visible.

If you're planning other I/O, put the relays in the basement and pick up a multi I/O unit like a 4x2 or 8SA.

 

 

Just to be certain, there is no reason i cannot use the 2475S2 with the sm120x, right?

 

I can send 120v through the relay (as indicated in the schematic/using blue as common) and then the NO (orange) will close when smoke is detected and send 120v to the in-linelinc.

 

The in linelinc gets wired to neutral and the bundled line/switchIn get the NO(orange wire)

It is my understanding that i dont need to use the sense (yellow wire) as the inlinelinc will detect the 120v when the relay closes.

Also dont need the switch out (red wire) either.

 

-Ron

[LeeG]

If the sm120x relay is to control an InLineLinc the sm120x relay is switching 120v AC to the InLineLinc Yellow Sense line. When 120V AC is applied to the Yellow Sense line the InLineLinc turns On. When 120V AC is removed from the Yellow Sense wire the InLineLinc turns Off.

[rsansev]

If the sm120x relay is to control an InLineLinc the sm120x relay is switching 120v AC to the InLineLinc Yellow Sense line. When 120V AC is applied to the Yellow Sense line the InLineLinc turns On. When 120V AC is removed from the Yellow Sense wire the InLineLinc turns Off.

 

Glad I waited!

[rsansev]

Help!

 

I dunno why, but i cannot seem to stop the sm120x from setting off the fire alarm.

I disconnected the interconnect from the rest of the house's wiring (in order to eliminate the possibility it is my wiring).

The alarm sounds when i connect the sm120x:

the black/blue (or even just the black) to the line

white to neutral

red to interconnect

 

Nothing attached to the relay at all (i.e. no inlinelinc attached)

 

The alarm stops when i remove the red wire to the sm120x

I tested the voltage between the smoke detector red and ground and it shows as 120v

 

My line/hot is indeed 120v to ground and neutral is 0v to ground, so they are not switched...

 

BTW, i can see the voltage from the NO/yellow it reads 120 to neutral and yellow is 0V

 

Is it the device or is it me?

 

Thanks,

 

Ron

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Ron,

 

What is SM120x?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rsansev]

Hi Ron,

 

What is SM120x?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

It is a kidde relay that senses the smoke detector interconnect signal.

So, when any kidde smoke detector alarms, they all alarm (including the sm120x).

BUt, alas, my sm120x seems to be *sending* the alarm!

[Brian H]

When you connect the Black to Line, White to Neutral and Red to Interconnect signaling.

The smoke alarms start sounding?

 

I found a diagram. Do NOT connect the Blue {Relay Common} to the Line connection. The diagram shows it connected so it can activate a 120 volt device.

 

With an I/OLinc putting the 120 volts on the sensor input will fry the I/OLinc.

Just connect the Blue {Relay Common} to the I/OLinc Common and the Orange {NO} to the Sensor Input.

If the SM120X is functioning correctly. On a smoke alarm sounding. The Sensor Input should go On triggering the I/OLInc.

 

The Gray wire connection should probably be insulated and not used. Though in some systems it is used for a 9 volt trigger of other devices.

[rsansev]

When you connect the Black to Line, White to Neutral and Red to Interconnect signaling.

The smoke alarms start sounding?

 

I found a diagram. Do NOT connect the Blue {Relay Common} to the Line connection. The diagram shows it connected so it can activate a 120 volt device.

 

With an I/OLinc putting the 120 volts on the sensor input will fry the I/OLinc.

Just connect the Blue {Relay Common} to the I/OLinc Common and the Orange {NO} to the Sensor Input.

If the SM120X is functioning correctly. On a smoke alarm sounding. The Sensor Input should go On triggering the I/OLInc.

 

The Gray wire connection should probably be insulated and not used. Though in some systems it is used for a 9 volt trigger of other devices.

 

Brian-

I have the sm120x instructions and both the diagram and the text state that i should do this.

However, at this point it is irrelevant, as the sm120x is causing the smoke detector to go into fire detect mode.

If i just hook sm120x to line and netral, all is well, as soon as i hook it's interconnect alarm sounds and wont stop, not even 'hush' will work.

 

Regarding the sense input, this is to a inlinelinc, not an i/o linc.

inline linc is made for 120v.

 

Thanks

[Brian H]

I thought we where talking about an I/OLinc.

I missed the part of your post where you where thinking about a InlineLinc with Sense.

 

With only the Black, White and Red connected and the alarms sounding.

Maybe the SM120X is bad.

 

Do you know what the Red Interconnect System wire reads normally?

[rsansev]

not a clue, but i hope it is supposed to be 120, cause that's what mine reads.

[LeeG]

Does it specifically indicate it is for a Smoke detector circuit. The CO relay also carries the 120X designation.

[Brian H]

The SM120X modules installation manual. Indicates it will work with the smoke detection part of the KN-COSM-IB but not on a CO detection. Unfortunately it does no indicate what the Interconnect signal is including its voltage.

The CO120X is for CO detector interfacing.

[rsansev]

I am sending it back to the seller

 

yes sm120x = smoke

i think the other is co120x

 

from amazon's site:

Model Number: SM120X|UOM: EA|Properties:|Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz, Amp: .08 |Interconnectable |Switches connected device power when a Smoke/Heat interconnect signal is received |Internal power supply for pull station comparability |Controls and connects auxiliary warning devices|For use with multiple station alarms and detectors

 

my detector is also interconnectable:

 

Kidde KN-COSM-IB Hardwire Combination Carbon Monoxide and Smoke Alarm with Battery Backup and Voice Warning, Interconnectable