Weird Dimming then KPL Freaked Out

[Vyrolan]

So I recently installed a KPL Dimmer for my bathroom lights. It's a 6-button and I use the main On/Off to control two recessed ceiling lights above the vanity. I use B and D to control the light in the shower (via an Inlinelinc). Currently A and C don't do anything.

 

The bathroom is on a hallway where I use a motion sensor to bring up the lights, and I was going to include these bathroom vanity lights in the program. Now I have it programmed via ISY so that the lights have various levels at different times of day. Late at night, the hallway cans come on only 25% when motion is detected (just enough to navigate), and I was going to include these bathroom at the same level.

 

However, those lights are crazy with the brightness levels. At 25%, sometimes they do not come on at all. I thought well these bulbs must not dim that low, so I bumped it up...but just nothing makes sense. If I'm at the KPL and I hit Off, then start brightening to an appropriate level, then I'll go look at ISY to see what it's at, it will be like 30% or so. But when the program brings them up to that level (with ramp rate anywhere from 0.1 to 2.0), they often don't come on. Then I tried turning it off and just setting the current value with the ISY to 30% (by just dragging the slider)...wow, they were almost fully on. After that, I turned them off and hit the motion sensor again...the "30%" was now almost completely bright. Craziness. Again I go to the KPL, off, on, etc, etc, and then I set the brightness manually wanting to check what ISY says. They're super dim like I want, and ISY says they're 84%. It's utter madness.

 

Shortly after that, the KPL just freaked out and stopped responding to anything. Next thing I know, it's somehow converted itself to a 8-button configuration. I can see how the right side of the On and both sides of the Off are just toggling their LED, and the left side of the On is controlling the load. I follow the instructions for converting to 6-button around 10 times and it never will switch back. I finally just disabled the device in ISY, and then did a factory reset on the KPL, and then had ISY restore it. Everything was back to normal, but I took those lights out of the motion detection program. I'm instead using the shower light which dims normally and correctly.

 

What could be happening here? Could the KPL be defective or just needed the factory reset? Could the bulbs above the vanity not respond well to dimming which got everything out of whack?

[LeeG]

First, when you press and hold the ON button (6 button mode) that starts ramp up in the KPL hardware and sends a message to the ISY that ramping has started. When the ON button is released the KPL sends another message to the ISY that ramping has stopped. It does not tell the ISY at what actual level the KPL was turned On to. The ISY estimates the On Level by measuring the time between when the KPL says ramp up starts and stops. To get the actual On Level right click the Primary node and select Query.

 

It sounds like the lights are non dimmable CFLs. Check what they are as they can be damaged and/or the KPL damaged if they are not a dimmable load.

 

The ISY has no logic to change a KPL mode from 6 to 8 or 8 to 6. The KPL did that on its own which may be another symptom of using the KPL to dim a non dimmable load.

 

Pull the air gap for 30 seconds and then restore only to the level of the frame. If that does not allow the KPL to change modes try a factory reset. The KPL may be damaged.

[Vyrolan]

First, when you press and hold the ON button (6 button mode) that starts ramp up in the KPL hardware and sends a message to the ISY that ramping has started. When the ON button is released the KPL sends another message to the ISY that ramping has stopped. It does not tell the ISY at what actual level the KPL was turned On to. The ISY estimates the On Level by measuring the time between when the KPL says ramp up starts and stops. To get the actual On Level right click the Primary node and select Query.

Oh...wow...totally didn't know that. =p That's probably a big source of the problem here.

 

It sounds like the lights are non dimmable CFLs. Check what they are as they can be damaged and/or the KPL damaged if they are not a dimmable load.

They are tiny little bub with the reflector. I'm not at home so I can't check them directly, but they look just like the ones I get when I search online for "MR16 halogen" and nothing at all like the bulbs I see when I search "MR16 CFL". I do seem to recall them being halogen from the last time they were replaced.

 

The ISY has no logic to change a KPL mode from 6 to 8 or 8 to 6. The KPL did that on its own which may be another symptom of using the KPL to dim a non dimmable load.

 

Pull the air gap for 30 seconds and then restore only to the level of the frame. If that does not allow the KPL to change modes try a factory reset. The KPL may be damaged.

Yea, I may have confused it pushing buttons and stuff and it got a little out of whack...ever since I factory reset it, it had been fine.

[Brian H]

I did some web searching and found MR16 halogen bulbs. 12 volt and 120 volt.

If yours are 12 volt with a power supply or transformer. A dimmer type KPL may not act correct.

The changing button types could also have been noise from driving an incorrect type device. Scrambling the microcontrollers operation until you did a power cycle reset.

[Vyrolan]

I did some web searching and found MR16 halogen bulbs. 12 volt and 120 volt.

If yours are 12 volt with a power supply or transformer. A dimmer type KPL may not act correct.

The changing button types could also have been noise from driving an incorrect type device. Scrambling the microcontrollers operation until you did a power cycle reset.

Yea, we were postulating about that on another forum. I'm pretty sure they're 120V...I remember it being pretty difficult to find replacement bulbs when one went out. I knew nothing about bulbs at the time, so we were just trying to match the voltages and wattages printed on them exactly, and the 120V certainly seem less common. I guess it's possible there's a transformer sitting up there somewhere steppng down the voltage, but it must be mounted up well above the enclosures or something. They were using a simple mechanical switch before I put in the KPL, and the load wire was definitely receiving full 120V.

 

I'm going to check the bulbs when I get home tonight to confirm type, voltage, and wattage, and hopefully I can get my multimeter probe on the contact to confirm actual voltage being applied.

[Brian H]

I did see your posts on the Smarthome Forums.

I looked at one of my online bulb vendors and can see why you may have had trouble finding 120 volt ones.

They come in bi-pin where you just push them into a socket or twist lock where you insert them and give a short twist to lock them into the sockets. Along with beam angle and wattage.

[Vyrolan]

I did see your posts on the Smarthome Forums.

Yea I ask stuff over there, but these forums seem a bit more active. =p

 

I looked at one of my online bulb vendors and can see why you may have had trouble finding 120 volt ones.

They come in bi-pin where you just push them into a socket or twist lock where you insert them and give a short twist to lock them into the sockets. Along with beam angle and wattage.

Yea, they were a pain...these were just bi-pin push in style, and trying to find matching was really difficult. Like I mentioned, we knew nothing about bulbs at the time so we just took the bad one and headed to like Home Depot or something....couldn't find a match at all. We had to order them online. =/

[Vyrolan]

So they actually are 12V bulbs. O_o I guess that explains a lot of things. I'm guessing I should not dim these at all despite the fact that they seem to dim ok (except for ramping from 0 to a low level). Thoughts?

[Brian H]

I saw your added information over on the Smarthome Forums.

Some of those small power supplies are made to be powered by a dimmer to dim the bulbs.

Though you may have to find out if they are rated for dimmer use.

My thoughts are they are not acting real strange. Like pulsing, buzzing or making other strange noises. It maybe OK.

[ergodic]

You really need to investigate what kind of recessed cans you have. May mean crawling around in the attic or pulling the trim and looking around inside.

 

I tested quite a few before I started my remodel. I eventually settled on the small, 4" Elco 12V halogens -- which I now have everywhere in the house. Elco has an excellent selection of trims and these cans work flawlessly with Insteon.

 

LV cans that have 12V electronic supplies are certainly efficient, but they can be trouble for any dimmer, and especially Insteon. Even if they are rated for dimmer use not all of them seem to handle standard leading-edge dimmers well. They often don't dim all the way down and there can be noticeable hysteresis in the ramp up/down. (That symptom is what makes me think you have an electronic supply.)

 

These cans also can feed HF noise back onto the powerline; normally harmless but it can confuse the powerline communication that Insteon listens for.

 

In short, if your can isn't designed for dimming, I'd recommend against it. And even if it is, you want to test it to see if it causes interference with Insteon communication when it is at, say around 50%-70% brightness where the potential noise can be the worst. Which is why you want to find out what you actually have up there.

 

If it turns out to be a problem, one option is to just replace it with a remodel can that does work better. Otherwise you really should use a KPL relay device instead. Just full on/off doesn't solve the entire issue as the triac output of a standard dimmer can be damaged over time by highly capacitive loads that are typical of electronic LV supplies. And that is more or less irrespective of how the device itself is set. If I had to guess, I'd suspect your're going to have this happen a few more times at random, and then the KPL will eventually hard-fail.

 

Any 12V can with a simple magnetic stepdown transformer should be fine.

[Vyrolan]

You really need to investigate what kind of recessed cans you have. May mean crawling around in the attic or pulling the trim and looking around inside.

The best I can do is pulling them down and looking...no access above. There's just a black sheath carrying two wires that connect to a small metal block attached to a metal disk. The MR16 pins plug in through the metal disk to the small metal block. I'll post pictures tonight when I'm at home and really check for markings.

 

LV cans that have 12V electronic supplies are certainly efficient, but they can be trouble for any dimmer, and especially Insteon. Even if they are rated for dimmer use not all of them seem to handle standard leading-edge dimmers well. They often don't dim all the way down and there can be noticeable hysteresis in the ramp up/down. (That symptom is what makes me think you have an electronic supply.)

I haven't had any problems since I reset it; I think the ISY not reading the level properly because of my local adjustments was a big factor there. I changed my late night mode to 40% on them and they've been fine. Even on a simple mechanical switch, the lights had a natural fade in and fade out of approx 0.5s.

 

In short, if your can isn't designed for dimming, I'd recommend against it. And even if it is, you want to test it to see if it causes interference with Insteon communication when it is at, say around 50%-70% brightness where the potential noise can be the worst. Which is why you want to find out what you actually have up there.

Is there any way to really know from a visual inspection? I dug through my emails back to Nov 2011 and found the exact bulb we ordered. Here it is on bulbs.com: http://www.bulbs.com/espec.aspx?ID=12431 Indications do seem to be that the bulb is dimmable, but that doesn't necessarily mean the transformer converting the voltage is as well. Not sure how I'll be able to tell...

 

If it turns out to be a problem, one option is to just replace it with a remodel can that does work better. Otherwise you really should use a KPL relay device instead. Just full on/off doesn't solve the entire issue as the triac output of a standard dimmer can be damaged over time by highly capacitive loads that are typical of electronic LV supplies. And that is more or less irrespective of how the device itself is set. If I had to guess, I'd suspect your're going to have this happen a few more times at random, and then the KPL will eventually hard-fail.

Replacing the cans would obliterate my WAF so that's not really an option. =| I do have a KPL relay I could swap to, although I hate how deep the KPL relays are...they just barely barely fit most of my boxes.

 

Any 12V can with a simple magnetic stepdown transformer should be fine.

As mentioned above, I'll post a picture tonight, but I remember them being the simplest small little device just behind the bulb. I guess I can verify with multimeter that it's actually 120V up to that point.