INSTEON Water Leak Sensor, low battery on ISY99?

[Michel Kohanim]

I have already requested for clarification from SH.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[az1324]

Maybe just write a dummy group 4 link record into the sensors? They don't send cleanups so the link doesn't have to be valid. Unless there is some other undocumented way to enable the heartbeats, but really I doubt conserving a link on the sensor side is going to be a concern.

 

Just as an update, I changed my heartbeat program to a 25 hour window and it's working fine, no missed heartbeats yet.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello az1324,

 

Are you suggesting that we create a half link with a dummy destination address?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[az1324]

Well I would use the PLM as the responder address just for consistency but yes a half-link (sounds Tolkien). Since there are no cleanups then it really doesn't matter it's basically a flag to enable the heartbeats.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello az1324,

 

I totally understand. Unfortunately that would break everything we do within ISY to ensure there are no half links.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

That half link should not work anyway unless the PLM is not following protocol requirements. Those messages are Group Broadcast messages. The Leak Sensor would send a Group Broadcast message for Group 4 but the PLM should not pass it to the application (ISY) without a corresponding Group 4 Responder link.

[az1324]

That half link should not work anyway unless the PLM is not following protocol requirements. Those messages are Group Broadcast messages. The Leak Sensor would send a Group Broadcast message for Group 4 but the PLM should not pass it to the application (ISY) without a corresponding Group 4 Responder link.

 

Yes in fact you are correct and I had it backwards. A leak sensor will still send out all its messages even with no link records in its database (after factory reset). But in order for ISY to receive the group 4 message from the PLM there must be a link record on that side. So a half link would still work, but on the PLM side. Obviously there is not really any value to saving a record on the leak sensor side so may as well make it a full link. So from the information we have, the group flag being set is the mistake. Unfortunately the only solution seems to be adding the group 4 link unless they plan to recall all of these devices.

[LeeG]

I’m not sure the group bit is a mistake in the broadcast message. With the right format link record the Leak Sensor generates the standard Group Cleanup Direct message.

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110102 C70600

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110102 C70600

 

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C30600

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C70600

[az1324]

Hmm that is interesting what link records are in the sensor in that case?

 

The group flag being a mistake refers to the documentation and the fact that there was intent to conserve link records.

[LeeG]

A single link record for that particular PLM - I generated with the Set button so the Leak Sensor generated the actual link record. I don't have a subscription so hopefully your doc will explain the details.

 

0FE8 : E2 FF 13.AC.99 03 1F 01

[az1324]

Interesting because the group is FF. So on the PLM side there is also a single group FF responder link but all the group messages (01,02,04) get passed on via serial?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello az1324,

 

Group FF is the broadcast group. That's how all on/all off work. And, as I mentioned before, ISY should hear these messages (on FF) simply because the PLM already has 2 more links for this device (just like All on/All off). So, the back to the issue of why we are not seeing the heartbeat.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[az1324]

Ok I know that when the destination for a message is group FF then members of any group respond to it but this is a record in the link db that specifies group FF which I thought was strange because the leak sensor says it uses group 1.

 

Is the opposite true that if the responder's link db record specifies group FF then it sees all other group messages?

 

This is what I have seen:

sensor has group 1 & 2 controller records, PLM has only group 1 & 2 responder records = no group 4 messages passed but they are still sent from the sensor, no cleanups

sensor has group 1 through 4 controller records, PLM has group 1 through 4 responder records = group 4 messages are passed, no cleanups

 

This is what LeeG has seen?

sensor has only group FF controller record, PLM has only group FF responder record = all group messages (1,2,4) are passed, cleanups are sent

 

LeeG can you confirm the link record on the PLM side?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Guys,

 

Just got a message from SmartHome: we should be getting the broadcasts as long as the device has been linked (or has at least one link). Has anyone seen these?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

With the following link record in the Leak Sensor which was generated by the Leak Sensor when it was Set button linked to a PLM

 

0FE8 : E2 FF 13.AC.99 03 1F 01

 

the Leak Sensor is sending a Group 2 On with a tap of the Set button on the Leak Sensor. The following link record was generated in the PLM by the Set button link with the Leak Sensor

 

A2 02 21.7A.CC 00 00 00

 

I was not getting a Group 1 On with a tap of the Set button on the Leak Sensor until I added a Responder link for Group 1 to the PLM

 

A2 01 21.7A.CC 00 00 00

 

 

With both Responder link records in the PLM and the single Controller link record in the Leak Sensor I now get Group 1 On and Group 2 On. I have not yet seen a Group 4 On without a Responder link in the PLM for Group 4. It has not been 24 hours with this link record configuration in the PLM. Since the PLM did not pass the Group 1 On message to the application until the PLM had a Responder link for Group 1 I suspect the PLM will not pass a Group 4 On to the application until the PLM has a Responder link for Group 4. I am waiting a full 24 hour cycle without the Responder link for Group 4 to confirm this. Once a full 24 hours has passed I will add a Responder link for Group 4 to the PLM and see if Group 4 On message is then passed to the application. I believe with the Responder link for Group 4 in the PLM the Group 4 Heartbeat message will be passed to the application.

 

It appears like the single odd looking Set button generated link record in the Leak Sensor causes the Leak Sensor to send Group 1,2,4 On messages. The PLM, a v92 2413U, only passes those Group x On messages to the application for which it has an equivalent Responder link record.

 

EDIT:

 

"Is the opposite true that if the responder's link db record specifies group FF then it sees all other group messages?"

 

I don't know the answer to that question yet. The initial evaluation of what messages are received by the application is using the Set button link generated link record in the PLM. I wanted to see what the results were when the links were generated by the hardware/firmware of the respective device. Since the PLM firmware was written long before the existence of a Leak Sensor I am not surprised that the PLM requires a conventional link record for each Group it passes On to the application. Once I confirm the Group 4 On will not be seen by the application without a Group 4 responder link in the PLM I can change the PLM link record to Group FF as the only responder link for the Leak Sensor Insteon address and see what messages the PLM passes to the application. It will be Wednesday evening EST before I can run those tests. I will be out of town for most of the day Wednesday.

[az1324]

I believe with the Responder link for Group 4 in the PLM the Group 4 Heartbeat message will be passed to the application.

 

That is what I thought too until you posted the following which showed group 2 and 4 messages coming through with cleanups:

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411102

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110102 C70600

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110102 C70600

 

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411104

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C30600

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C70600

 

So where did those messages come from?

[LeeG]

The Group Cleanup Direct messages are generated as a result of that Set button generated link record in the Leak Sensor. That is the only link record in the Leak Sensor for the test PLM 13.AC.99

 

0FE8 : E2 FF 13.AC.99 03 1F 01

 

Obviously the Group number (FF) is unusual but the On Level (03) and Unit number (01) are also values that might have some control over whether the Leak Sensor sends Group Cleanup Direct messages or not. Since what I would call conventional Controller link records generated by the ISY when the device is add do not result in the Cleanup messages, something in the above link record is controlling. I would hope something in the Developer information would explain what is directing the Leak Sensor to send the Cleanup messages.

[az1324]

I get that part, but what I'm saying is that if that test PLM with only one link passes both group 2 & group 4 messages to the serial port then why shouldn't ISY be receiving those as well unless it is filtering them out itself and not the PLM.

[LeeG]

Sorry, I have not accurately described the conditions. When the Group Cleanup Direct messages for Group 2 and Group 4 were traced the PLM had other links. I had done a Set button link between the Leak Sensor and the PLM but had not cleared the PLM of other link records that had been established for testing of Group 4 messages.

 

I factory reset the PLM, relinked to the Leak Sensor with the Set button, which is the configuration I have been using for these last series of tests. With these last tests the PLM started out with only a Responder link for Group 2 which was established with the Set button link. With that as the only link record in the PLM the only thing being passed out from the PLM were messages for Group 2. I added a Responder link for Group 1 to the PLM at which point I now get Group 1 and Group 2 messages. These include the Group Cleanup Direct messages because of the unusual Controller link record in the Leak Sensor that it created when I Set button linked with the PLM. Something in that link record directs the Leak Sensor to include sending Group Cleanup Direct messages.

 

I have not yet seen a Group 4 message of any kind since I factory reset the PLM. Have not yet reached a full 24 hours yet. Once that time passes I will add a responder link in the PLM for Group 4. I expect at that point to see Group 4 messages. That activity will not be done until this evening when I get back. After that I will change one of the existing responder link records to Group FF and erase the other links to see if that allows the PLM to pass all Group numbers

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi LeeG,

 

Thanks so very much for the detailed explanation. It seems that we will have to add group 4 for heartbeat. There's just no way out of it as I can see it now.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

Michel

 

It does look like the PLM is reacting the way it would be expected to react. It needs a Responder link for Group 4 before it will pass either a Group Broadcast or Group Cleanup Direct for Group 4.

 

I did not receive a Group 4 On over a period of 26+ hours. Added the Responder link for Group 4 to the PLM and now receive Group 4 On in addition to the Group 1 On and Group 2 On I was receiving before. The following was generated by two Set button presses on the Leak Sensor. The Leak Sensor sends the Group 4 On a few seconds after the last Set button press messages.

 

When the Leak Sensor is actually made Wet by placing in water or Dry by removing from water, the Group 4 On does not get generated. It will take another 24 hour period to confirm the Group 4 On Heartbeat happens without the Set button press. I feel certain it will send the Group 4 On Heartbeat in 24 hours.

 

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000002 C71102

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411102

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110102 C70600

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

 

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000001 C31101

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000001 C71101

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411101

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110101 C30600

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110101 C70600

 

 

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

0 :11 0250 217ACC 000004 C71104

0 :11 0250 217ACC 13AC99 411104

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C70600

0 :11 0250 217ACC 110104 C70600

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi LeeG,

 

Thanks so very much for the clarification. My main question now is whether or not we need to have a 3rd node for group 4 + an additional control called heartbeat. At the moment, I am thinking that we do not need the 3rd node but that we send a DON for group 1 every time we get a heartbeat.

 

Your thoughts?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[az1324]

I've already received many group 4 heartbeats at the 24h interval so they are definitely working properly on their own.

 

I guess as Michel says the only solution is to add all 3 links to the PLM for each sensor. In addition, if the links are going to be written manually into the leak sensor, they should be changed to group FF and the parameters adjusted if necessary so that group cleanups are sent.

 

It's unfortunate that there is not a pass-all type responder link that can be written into the PLM.

 

I don't think any change to the nodes or processing is necessary. A heartbeat program can simply ensure that one of the nodes has been switched on within the last 24hrs.

[LeeG]

Michel

 

If a Group 1 On is simulated for each Group 4 On Heartbeat what does that do to the normal state of the Dry and Wet nodes. If the Leak Sensor is actually Wet (in water), node Dry=Off and node Wet=On. Does this simulated Group 1 On change the node pattern to Dry, marking node Dry=On and node Wet=Off even though the Leak Sensor is still actually Wet? That does not sound good to me.

 

If the node pattern after the simulated Group 1 On is node Dry=On and node Wet=On that destroys the normal node pattern. Which node state is to be believed? This does not sound good to me either.

 

az1324

 

I have no doubt the Heartbeat Group 4 On will be received in the next 24 hour cycle. Just want to see it happen as you have to complete that part of the test cycle. Once that is confirmed I will see if a single Responder link in the PLM with Group FF produces the same results as 3 individual Responder links. I don't like the idea of a mismatch in the number of link records in the Controller and Responder. If a single Group FF in the Leak Sensor is required to get the Group Cleanup Direct messages I would prefer a single link record in the PLM to match.

[az1324]

No it is processed correctly according to the logic posted earlier by Michel (aside from the typo at line 16) because the state of the sensor is sent within the heartbeat. So a heartbeat could either cause a group Dry ON or group Wet ON event along with the corresponding OFF event. It won't cause an incorrect sensor state to be reported.

 

Questions that remain:

Does the sensor still send wet messages every 15 seconds if it has successfully cleaned up all responders?

Do the wet messages continue every 15 seconds ad infinitum or is there a timed cutoff?