I think they're still down.

 

I have 0 stations showing online in all of Michigan/Indiana

Hello Mike,

 

I'm still struggling with your soil system. Comments below -

 

IndyMike,

Thanks for the valuable info. Incidentally the only reason I started this particular thread is that I discovered my system applying water less than 48 hours after a heavy rain and when the soil was nearly saturated. It is this tendency to resume irrigation too soon after rainfall that I'm trying to prevent.

 

Normal soil structures have been characterized and assigned "Field Capacity" (FC) numbers base on the soils ability to hold water. You stated that you were using a "loamy sand" soil classification and had 6" - 8" of soil.

 

From the table below:

1) 8" of soil @0.07" per inch of root depth (8 x 0.07) = 0.56" in H20 Field Capacity. This is the maximum water that that classification of soil is assumed to be able to hold.

2) Assuming an 8" root depth, your Maximum Allowable Depletion (MAD%) is 60% (0.6*.56" = .34" water depleted).

 

Problems:

1) The table assumes a normal level of percolation - any irrigation above the Field Capacity of 0.56" is assumed to run-off (heavy soil) or be lost to percolation.

2) While a heavy rain in excess of the FC will saturate a "normal" soil, Evapotranspiration will be increased as will percolation. Normally, the FC will be re-established within 24 hours. In other words - the ISY is correct in re-starting irrigation after 48 hours. It is assuming a "normal system" that has re-established the FC due to run-off/percolation.

3) As I stated previously - your lava cap prevents Percolation. This effectively throws the concept of Field Capacity out the window. You effectively have a closed container that can be filled to saturation and is only subject to drainage due to elevation changes. I have not found a "residential" application that can account for the lack of Percolation. The alternative is active soil moisture measurement.

 

As I said in the lead in, I have not come up with a good solution for this. In the meantime:

 

1) Adjust your soil type to sand (100% absorption). This will help account for the lack of percolation.

2) Historically, your summer months will be marked by lower rainfall and higher ET. This should lesson the problem of Rain storage above the lava cap.

3) Your normal March ETc was 2.4" vs a rainfall of 2.2". Assuming your soil is retaining the rainfall, that's not enough difference to worry about. You might consider disabling the system from Jan through March.

 

 

I always do my soil moisture test at the highest point on the slope, preferably near an edge where it is most susceptible to wind.

 

That's a news item for me. I did not realize that you had a means of measuring the soil moisture. Could you post back the make/model of your tester and any measurements that you have performs?

 

I have data for 4/1, 4/2 and today. I couldn't get yesterday's because I'm not familiar with getting historical data and my system was down for a major HVAC control rebuild. When I get finished it will be completely Insteon (right now I have nothing).

 

I rolled up my data this morning. I'm rather disappointed:

 

1) I forgot about the time zone difference. I believe the ISY was pulling numbers for your site 3 hours early.

2) I had modem issues (1st time in over a year) on 4/3. I missed some rainfall on that date as a result.

3) Sampled the KAUR site at 5 minute intervals. Had 3 errors over the space of 5 days (seems reliable).

 

Other than the loss of data on 4/3 (Modem down), I don't see anything incorrect in the following. Please let me know how I can get your recorded data. PM me if you need an Email address.

 

Hello Mike,

 

I've been reading Engineering Manuals for the past couple of days. After educating myself a bit more, I am have to retract an earlier statement: The ISY is correct in not allowing a negative water requirement. This is accepted practice in the absence of a detailed site analysis and/or active soil moisture measurements.

 

From the US Dept of Agriculture Engineering Handbook:(FC is Field Capacity)

When rainfall or irrigation takes in excess of the amount needed to bring the soil back to FC, the extra amount is assumed to percolate below the root zone; the daily balance is recorded as the FC level. Should high intensity rains cause runoff before the soil is filled to FC, it will be necessary to either estimate or measure the effective rainfall percolating into the soil that is available for plant

use. This amount is added to achieve the daily balance.

 

What I view as important in the above is the phase "percolation below the root zone" - You have rock below the root zone. There is no percolation.

 

To explain lava cap it's best I start by saying I live in the Sierra Nevada foothills. Auburn is about 35 miles NE of Sacramento on I-80 and I'm at just over 1,200' elevation. There is a dense, very low absorption and very rocky layer in the soil around here that is anywhere from on the surface to 12-18" below the surface that we call lava cap. That stuff is the main reason that a jack hammer is a standard gardening tool here. On my property it is very near the surface and the absorbent layer I mentioned is soil that I have put down. The lawn has varying amounts of slope (nothing is level around here) and as soon as water reaches the lava cap it begins to run off below the top soil. At least I'm assuming that's what happens when the soil is moist but not saturated and there is water collecting on the sidewalk that isn't coming from overspray. I use the 0.25" per cycle as a safety factor and run an extra cycle in the evening if called for to make sure the lawn gets enough water.

 

From your previous description, you have 6 - 8" of topsoil above the Lava cap. Referring to the graphic below, when it rains (or you irrigate) a portion of the water will travel through the soil and hit the lava cap. As you noted above, the slope of your land will cause the water to travel downward until it hits an obstruction (curb, driveway, foundation). The soil near the obstruction will become saturated as a result.

 

As you probably already know, saturated soil is not a healthy environment for grass. Under watering grass will cause it to go dormant. Over watering can kill it (in a much shorter time).

 

I do not have a solution for heavy rainfall. The ISY calculation should accurately calculate the ETo for the upper end of your slopes. If the low end of the slopes are being dammed by an obstruction (saturated), you'll need to apply some "Kentucky Windage". From the looks of your weather history, heavy rainfall should be gone until November.

 

As far as irrigation is concerned, I think you have to correct approach in applying .25" per watering. I would not run the system twice in a day (.5") unless the ISY tells you that you lost over .5" the previous day. Based on your ET#'s, you're not there yet.

 

Most irrigation manuals promote "deep watering" of 0.5" to promote root growth. With only 8" of soil, your grass roots have little room to grow. In other words, daily watering of .25" will cause less drainage to the lower sections of the lawn whereas 0.5" watering every other day may saturate the area.

 

I use Hunter MP Rotator sprinkler heads, a mix of MP2000 and MP3000 and I'm using the factory provided data to determine how long to run the system to get 0.25" of water. Each irrigation cycle runs each zone in the system twice to get the 0.25".

 

I began collecting the data you suggested this morning. I'll try to remember to collect each morning for the next few days.

mike

 

The Rotator heads are nice. I wish they had them when I laid out my system. They are susceptible to wind (which you appear to have a lot of). Be careful watering in the evening when the winds may be high - your uniformity will go to the wind (pun intended).

 

If you are interested, I've used the following site many times over the years as an irrigation reference:http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/reviews/rotor/mprotator.htm

 

I am still interested in the numbers that your ISY is providing. Let's give things a couple more days, then we can compare notes. I have some more suggestions, but want to see the numbers first.

Hello Mike,

 

The station name was a typo. I'm monitoring KAUN.

 

I've updated the charts based on your settings.

 

I know the soil type is wrong but it seems to work best for me. My actual soil type is 6-8" of highly absorbent top soil on top of lava cap. I set the small amount of water applied because it is about the maximum I can apply before runoff.

I have to admit that your soil structure has me a bit mystified. I have no idea what a "lava cap" is. "Highly absorbent" and "runoff" don't normally go together unless you are applying water at a very high rate. From your description, this sounds like soil that is 100% absorbent but quickly hits a saturation limit. I don't know how to model that - yet.

 

Questions:

1) What type sprinkler heads are you using (spray, rotors, etc)?

2) Have you measured the application rate?

 

Observations:

1) If you are able to saturate your soil with the sprinkler system, the same will be happening (probably to a greater extent) when your receiving your 1" of rainfall.

2) The above being the case, retaining the full value of 1" "rain today" is completely incorrect. Most of this would be lost to runoff after the soil becomes saturated.

 

The offset I mentioned was an error, the actual offset is 7" and it is purely arbitrary. My irrigation program looks at 7" the same way it looks at 0" without the offset. Basically I'm trying to achieve the performance pattern in your 2nd (ISY Calculated Irrigation) chart's red line and avoid the green line. It appears to me that the offset will do the trick but time will tell.

 

The early morning program looks for Irrigation Requirement > 7.45" and applies 0.25" of water if the condition is satisfied.

 

The evening program looks for Irrigation Requirement > 7.3" and applies another 0.25" of water if the condition is satisfied. This arrangement allows up to 0.5" of water to be applied in a 24 hour period and also avoid the runoff problem associated with the lava cap if the 0.5" were applied at one time.

 

I still do not understand the 7" offset. If I add the total ETo for the month of march (disregarding rain) I get about 3". In other words, your system should never have approached the 7" offset. If this number is correct, something is very wrong.

 

I have my ISY set to monitor your KAUN site using the numbers you posted. If you could collect numbers over the next few days we can compare to see if you are somehow getting corrupted data.

 

The easiest way to pull your data is to use the REST interface via your browser: 192.168.XXX.XXX/rest/climate. Save the XML file and we can compare notes.

 

IM

 

 

IndyMike,

 

The station I use (KAUN) is a NWS airport station that started reporting rainfall data about a year ago. So far the reported rainfall has been tracking actual conditions very well. I'm really reluctant to change from it because of one of the factors you mentioned, elevation. I'm at least 1,000' higher than any nearby station except KAUN, which is about 400' higher than where I am.

 

I'm not concerned with the ETo calculation, I'm totally ignorant in that area. The discarding of rainfall data that should (in my mind) drive Irrigation Requirement negative is a problem though. I've checked the soil with a soil moisture tester numerous times and following a heavy rain the system wants to start irrigation again in a day or so while the soil moisture is still off-scale (mud).

 

I've inserted an offset into my programs by not calling for irrigation until Irrigation Requirement exceeds 10.3". That should allow the system to delay restarting irrigation too soon. I'll be using the soil moisture test regularly and make adjustments accordingly.

 

Michel, my router is a Motorola combination cable modem/router in a single device. the ISY now connects directly to it without going through the switch. I've rebooted it twice in the last couple of days with no change. We'll see what the offset in my programs does.

 

mike

 

Mike,

 

I found your station and downloaded the observations for the month of March. I do agree that there should be some method of retaining the rainfall information.

 

Note that your NWS site appears to report at 30 minute intervals. Based on your error log, you are requesting data from weatherbug at a much faster rate (not sure what that is). I believe I remember one of the UDI team posting that over-polling weatherbug sites could be interpreted as a Denial Of Service attack and could result in errors. Regardless, you should be able to back your polling way down - it's not buying you anything.

 

I am currently monitoring the NWS station at 10 minute intervals as a test. I'll let you know if I encounter errors.

 

The 1st chart below shows the ISY calculated ETo and Irrigation required (both as calculated and with retention of rainfall). You've had two rather significant rainfalls (on 3/6 and 3/20) and are in the process of getting more rain today. Sorry for the crappy weather.

 

The second chart predicts Irrigation based on:

1) 100% Soil absorption

2) 0.5" water applied per cycle

3) Both current calculated Irrigation Requirement and Irrigation requirement with Rainfall retention (negative values).

 

As shown, the current ISY calculation (not retaining negative Irrigation) would have resulted in 5 cycles of your irrigation system. If the ISY had retained the negative values, the system would have cycled 3 times (one inch less water applied).

 

With all of the above said, I still do not understand your numbers:

1) You stated that you've applied a 10.5" water offset to keep your system from cycling. I don't understand this - your total calculated Irrigation requirement for March should not have exceeded 1.2". Is it possible that you are using metric values (mm)?

2) I'm having problems understanding why your system would cycle every day or so.

 

Please post back your settings:

1) Irrigation Region

2) Soil absorption (100%, 90%, etc)

3) Water applied/cycle

4) Allowable depletion

5) What you are actually watering (Grass, flower beds, etc).

 

IM

 

ARRRGH - 3 hours into a post and I just watched it vanish. Lesson (re-)learned: write post local and copy/paste to the forum!

 

Here's the short version:

 

I assisted Michel in checking out the ETo calculation. I believe it's accurate within +/- 7% over a month. It will vary more per day but we're talking about errors on the order of 0.05 inches.

 

The calculation relies on elevation high/low temperature, and averages of current temp, wind speed, and dewpoint. This is a classic example of Garbage in = Garbage out.

 

1) If you have a unreliable WB connection, your averages will be incorrect. If the "gaps" in data are large enough, the errors can be significant.

2) If you have a very unreliable WB connection, your Min/Max temperatures and rainfall may be incorrect. This will lead to large errors.

3) You need to pick a RELIABLE WB station. Temperatures are typically very reliable. Windspeed and dewpoint are placement/maintenance sensitive. Reliability is more important than proximity. You can compensate for offsets (constant differences) between your local location and the WB station. Nothing can compensate for poor station placement or maintenance issues.

4) NWS stations (airports) are typically well maintained. Unfortunately, they do not normally report rain data and report wind speed at a higher elevation. While not good candidates for WB data, they are a good source for assessing whether your local WB site is giving accurate wind/dewpoint data.

5) WB has a nasty habit of "automatically switching stations" if your selected station is having reporting problems. This isn't a big deal in Indiana where the elevation changes 200' over the course of miles. Out West, where little things like Mountains come into the equation, a station change could move you from a valley to Pikes Peak. I don't have a good solution for this problem - other than selecting a RELIABLE station.

 

I did not address the issue of Irrigation Required or retention of negative values. In hindsight, I can see where this would be required for rain events that far exceed the typical ETo. Unfortunately, I don't believe that it's as simple as retaining a negative irrigation required variable:

 

1) The soil absorption factor is a linear approximation that is applied over a "normal" range of rainfall.

2) Soils are not linear - after hitting saturation, 100% of the rainfall will result in run-off.

 

Short of running a percolation test (required in my area with septic systems), I do not know how to quantify soil absorption/saturation. Asking users to run a percolation test would seem to be a bit extreme. If anyone has access to data that could be used to characterize regional soil characteristics, please chime in.

 

IM

Lee

 

Reset PLM and then restore PLM...no change

 

IndyMike,

 

How do I move the 2413 to the opposite phase?

 

Questions

1) if you are referring to 1d 28 a8 - that is a 2477D

2) yes I did and I got no response from the dual band lamplinc when I queried it.

 

If I understand your response correctly -

 

1) You factory reset/restored to PLM (per Lee's request).

2) You plugged a dual band lamplinc in the same circuit as the PLM and received no response to a query.

 

If the above is correct, you are either dealing with a failing PLM, or have severe corruption of the powerline communication.

 

I had asked about moving the PLM to the opposite phase because it's possible that only one of the phases is corrupted. You'll need to figure out which breaker your current PLM location is being supplied from. Once you know this, select a location/breaker that is on the alternate phase per the picture below. Alternating breakers from top to bottom are on the opposite phase. Breakers across the horizontal are on the same phase.

 

Another approach would be to use a Filterlinc on the PLM itself. This will eliminate any powerline corruption and force the PLM to utilize RF exclusively.

IndyMike,

 

Thank you for your suggestions:

 

Question 1- queried and down to 6 responding

... and the six that are responding are different than in your original post. I'd regard that as "non-repeatable" (intermittent communications).

 

 

Question 2 - 2413S

Question 3 - basement near the service panel

Thank you. Would it be possible to move the 2413S to the opposite phase? This would rule out a noise source/absorber near the PLM.

 

 

Suggestions:

 

1) I get a Request Failed error and nothing is written to the event log file...when I query Insteon engine nothing happens.

2) Queried Insteon Engine - first two were showing the exclamation mark, third had previously worked when I did the query, but as you can see failed on this try and now shows an exclamation mark

 

log file - can't add as file so copy and paste below

 

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:27 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:33 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:37 PM : [All ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:37 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1D 28 A8 0F 0D 00

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:37 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.28.A8 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:46 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1D 28 A8 0F 0D 00

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:46 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.28.A8 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:55 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1D 28 A8 0F 0D 00

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:55 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.28.A8 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Sun 03/24/2013 01:54:59 PM : [ 1D 28 A8 1] ERR 1

 

The above log is showing a device timeout for a "Insteon Engine query". The ISY attempted to communicate to the device 3 times and did not receive a response.

 

Questions:

1) The device address shown in the event viewer was not in your original list. What type of device is this?

2) Have you tried moving one of your dual band Lamplincs to the same circuit as the PLM (or is that what you are showing above)?

Hello Envirogreen,

 

In addition to the event viewer diagnostics that LeeG has requested...

 

Observations from the screen shot you provided:

1) Your screen shot showed a total of 24 devices.

2) 22 of the devices are dual band - we can hopefully assume that your phases are coupled properly.

3) 8 devices are showing a status (they responded at one point). The remainder are showing that they failed to communicate.

 

Question 1) Are the 8 devices reliable? Do they consistently respond to queries?

 

4) Of the 24 devices shown: 4 are newer I2CS units, 4 are I2 units, the remaining 16 are unknown (added manually and show version V.00)

5) Of the 8 devices responding: 3 are the newer I2CS units, 5 are unknown. All are dual band.

6) There doesn't appear to be a pattern to the location of the responding devices. Some are on your 1st floor, some on the second.

 

Question 2) Are you using a 2412S (powerline only) or 2413S (dual band) PLM?

Question 3) Where is the PLM physically located (1st floor, basement,etc and near service panel, office (away from panel), etc).

 

Suggestions (in addition to Lee's request) -

1) You have a number of dual band Lamp modules. Try moving one to the same outlet/circuit as the PLM. Please post an event trace of a device query.

2) Have you tried a "query Insteon Engine"? Right click on the device, then select diagnostics/query Insteon Engine.

Hello someguy,

 

Sorry to hear that you haven't resolved the issue. I am a bit curious how you are determining that the PLM is losing it's records:

 

Edit: Stupid question follows. Resolved by reading page 1 of this thread. Please disregard.

 

1) Observation: device responses not registered by the PLM.

2) Link record read: Very difficult to accomplish unless you filter the PLM and disable RF devices. If the link table shows blank (similar to a factory reset), that's conclusive. Otherwise it's very hard to determine whether a particular link record is gone.

 

Not doubting your conclusions - just trying to figure out how the problem is exhibiting itself.

I don't know whether my power supply is on the opposite phase or not. Should that matter? It is NOT on the same outlet as the PLM

That was really a fishing expedition on my part. It should not matter, but I'm not sure that the designers took this into account. Both the PLM and the ISY are isolated from the powerline, but they are not isolated from each other. The question becomes, how good is the power isolation. I don't have an answer for that with the 2413S.

 

It may be a total WAG on my part, but something to think about it you experience problems again.

 

Along a similar line, the "older" modules (SWL, KPL, Etc) could be upset by a line voltage spike making it through the power supply to the uP. Units would require the "air gap" procedure to recover. While I've experienced this with older units, I have not had any problems with units using the "improved" power supply implemented around 2009. The 2413S came out in the same time frame. From what I can see, it uses the same switching power supply configuration.

 

With the above said, if you encounter problems again, please try:

 

1) Verify the PLM/ISY supplies are on the same phase.

2) Consider moving both to the opposite phase (to preclude line spikes from being an issue). Your passive coupler should not pass (or severely attenuate) a spike between the phases.

 

IM

Hello Someguy,

 

I realize that this is a rather old thread, but I was researching PLM malfunctions and was wondering where you wound up with this. Were you able to recover the PLM, or did you replace it?

 

As a side note, you mentioned that your PLM is installed in a dedicated outlet with a phase coupler. Where is the power supply for the ISY connected? Is it possibly on the opposite phase?

 

IM

Johnnyt,

 

The following is from the GE Zwave manual for a 45609 dimmer:

 

Wireless Range

This device complies with the Z-Wave standard of open-air, line of sight transmission distances of 65 feet. Actual performance in a home depends on the number of walls between the remote controller and the destination device, the type of construction and the number of Z-Wave enabled devices installed in the control network.

 

Ge Z-Wave Network

Every Z-Wave enabled device acts as a signal repeater and multiple devices result in more possible transmission routes which helps eliminate “RF dead-spotsâ€.

Things to consider regarding RF range:

- Each wall or obstacle (i.e.: refrigerator, big screen TV, etc.) between the remote or a Z-Wave device and the destination

device will reduce the maximum range by approximately 25-30%.

- Brick, tile or concrete walls block more of the RF signal than walls made of wooden studs and plasterboard (drywall).

- Wall mounted Z-Wave devices installed in metal junction boxes will suffer a significant loss of range (approximately

20%) since the metal box blocks a large part of the RF signal.

 

 

 

I do not have much recent experience with Zwave. I will say that I am able to communicate with an Intermatic receptacle 68' away through a steel door/12" concrete wall. This is "line of sight" with one rather ominous obstruction, but still rather impressive.

Yeah - I can program my 2876SB Icon Switches (V.39) using I2! These had been a problem previously due to the limited memory.

 

I'm not sure which revision included this change - thank you nonetheless.

OH throwing the bolt. The wife would like that.. But I make my deadbolts pull the door TIGHT on the seal, so curious how much torque these little motors might have.

 

Alan

 

Alan,

 

This is likely not achievable. Most of the motorized locks that I have seen are sized so that they stall the motor if they encounter an obstruction.

 

In order "pull the door tight" a gear reduction drive would be required to multiply the motor torque. This toque would still require limiting (motor stall or a clutch) to prevent damage for a true interference condition (door partially shut). This same gearset would also drain the battery due to the increased operating time required to throw the bolt.

 

The installation manuals for all of these locks refer to "alignment" and "smooth operation" during installation. The Kwickset deadbolt does advertise a "tapered" bolt to improve engagement. I do not know how effective this is in practice.

 

If you have a Metal door:

You could replace your compression seals with magnetic seals (lock side and top). This will pull your door shut for you allow allow for minimal interference on the deadbolt.

If you have a Wood door:

1) Adjust your handset to "hold the door tight" and allow the deadbolt to align properly. Your family members may not like having to "push" the door closed.

2) Consider using a Zwave locking handset + the Schlage Zwave non-motorized deadbolt (expensive). This would allow you to remote lock the handset and still use the Schlage deadbolt to pull the door tight against the seals.

 

Question: Do you really need to force the deadbolt to seal the door? Are you sure that your seals aren't worn out?

Hello again johnnyt,

 

More info on ventilation systems:

 

Nice article on using ERV's and HRV's: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-hrvs-cost-effective

 

At the bottom of the article there are #'s for the relative savings for different locations in the US (johnnyt, you would likely use the Burlington Vermont #'s):http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/sites/default/files/Semmelhack%20HRV%20cost%20effectiveness%20table%201.jpg

 

From the chart above, I'm roughly in-line with the numbers posted for Chicago. I just re-tested my furnace blower. After subtracting out the "unneeded" loads (zone panel, vent dampers) it pulls 1100W in heat mode and 575W in low speed continuous mode. I think I'm stuck with my "open window" system until it dies. On the brighter side, I'll be in retirement sooner than I care to admit. I'll get another chance at this when we down-size.

 

Article on the "Lunos" through the wall heat recovery ventilators: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/european-products-building-tight-homes

 

The Lunos fans go for $1200 for a pair and are rated at 17.6 CFM/Pair. My home would require 5 pair to meet ASHRAE standards. There is no current cost/benefit calculation ratio that would support using these in the States. The sad fact is these may make sense in Europe. On average, Europeans pay nearly 2x my local price for natural gas, and 3.5X the price for electricity. Add in the fact that the fans are "easy" retrofits for older homes and these could work for them.

 

IM

EHV: is either an Exothermic Heat Ventilator (haven't invented it yet) or a typo. I corrected my post to indicate a HRV.

Hello johnnyt,

 

Thank you for the clarification on your local code. I cringe whenever I hear the term "lobbyists". While it is possible that there were issues with the 90's vintage HRV's (your defrost heater as an example), I have a hard time believing they had your best interests in mind when they campaigned to change the code. A HRV would seem to be ideally suited to your area.

 

I do have co-workers that have HRV's with defrost heaters. They appear to function well in the milder climate of N. Indiana/S. Michigan. I can see where it could present an issue with your much colder climate.

 

Since you had a HRV installed during construction, I'm guessing that you have dedicated return/supply ducts throughout your home. In other words, your HRV system is separate from your Heating/Cooling air system.

 

I'm jealous. I'm running bath fans with makeup air vents in the basement (walkout). The air vents are similar to your back draft vents but reversed so they supply outside air to prevent negative pressure in the home. I live in an area where Radon gas is a problem (I've tested the house multiple times over the years) and need to prevent a negative pressure condition. As you stated, my system is analogous to turning on the fans and opening a window.

 

I would love to install a dedicated system, but simply don't have access to the walls/ceilings to be able to install one. That leaves the option of tying the HRV into my heating system. Unfortunately, my furnace is an older model with a fixed speed blower. It consumes ~1500W of power when running. That puts a big dent in the payback from the HRV. I've looked at this a number of times over the years and have always walked away in disgust. I really need my furnace to die (can't believe I wrote that) so I can replace it with a variable speed model.

 

At least I've been able to automate the bath fans using ISY so that the air exchanges occur at a regular rate or my choosing.

 

Thanks for sharing the information on your system. Glad to hear that it's working well for you.

 

IM

In Ontario and maybe Quebec and other places in Canada (and northern US?) if your house is newer (early 90's +) it was built air tight with either a Heat Recovery Ventilator (HRV) until about the mid 90's or a relatively big (150-200 CFM) bathroom fan with a "Vent" switch near the thermostat after the mid 90's.

 

If you have a newer air tight home you're supposed to run the fan or HRV to bring fresh air in so there's natural dehumidification happening with the need to bring in fresh air - and arguably no additional cost attributable to dehumidification unless you're overdoing it. I frankly don't know how much you need but I go for about 8 hours / day in spring, fall (when there's minimum "stack effect" venting your house naturally) and somewhat less in summer and winter. My HRV has dry contacts that I use to turn on to low or high IO Lincs.

 

I don't know the Viconic products or the Honeywell Prestige - do they control HRV's and bathroom fans?

 

Hello johnnyt,

 

I was confused by your statement that HRV systems were "early 90's" while the large bath fans + makeup air were "mid 90's". I had thought that the HRV systems were the "latest and greatest" for providing ventilation (with the side benefit of winter humidity control) without increasing heating costs.

 

I currently use my bath fans + makeup air valves to "attempt" to control humidity in the winter (second floor runs 50% unless controlled). I was considering a HRV in an attempt to lower the heat load in winter. I'm having a very difficult time calculating the cost/benefit trade for the HRV (can't calculate the heating cost of running with makeup air). Is there something better? I've seen some reports of European fans that passively heat the incoming air, but they are expensive and have no numbers for humidity control.

 

IM

Plau,

 

Your Honeywell Prestige thermostat appears to have all the necessary controls for both dehumidification and humidification (internal humidity/external temp and humidity/ frost control). It seems like it could replace your VH7200 if you have the necessary wires run.

 

What type of dehumidification equipment are you using?

 

Note that if you are using the setback feature on your thermostat you will have problems @-22 outside. As your indoor air temp is decreasing the RH will be increasing. If you are using the setback at night, the indoor temp/RH is increasing at the same time that your window temps are decreasing. It's very difficult for any system to keep up with these changes. You need to compensate by keeping the RH low during your warm periods so it doesn't hit dew point (at your windows) during setback.

 

For your area, I'm not sure that is a economical tradeoff. Gar furnaces are far more efficient than mechanical dehumidifiers. It might pay to leave the temperature higher and run the dehumidifier less.

Hello Plau,

 

I would be extremely cautious in trying to automate this setup. Your VH7200 is a rather capable device with built in protection to prevent damage to your equipment. This isn't easily replaced with standard automation devices. Without understanding your exact equipment type (heat pump, forced air/mechanical cooling, hydronic, etc,) it's impossible to recommend any replacement. Even if this were known, I would be hesitant to interface automation modules directly to your equipment. Without a lot of thought. they simply won't offer the protection that the VH7200 does.

 

A natural thought would be to replace your existing thermostat with one that included humidity control. There are communicating thermostats available that might be able to safely control your equipment. The fact that you have the VH7200 as a separate device indicates that the functionality is not built into your thermostat and you may not have the wires run to support a humidity control thermostat.

 

I have a lot of automation in my home. The furnace/AC/humidity is something that I leave to dedicated controllers that have the capability of properly controlling/protecting my expensive equipment.

After performing more tests it's painfully evident that I don't have a clue what is going on...

 

The following is a comparison of a 2476D (powerline) vs 2477D (dual band) with timing as identical as I can get it.

 

The 2476D is a V.40 (I2) dimmer.

The 2477D is a V.38 (I2) dual-band dimmer.

All programs are disabled - except my variable counting program.

Passive coupler removed.

Accesspoints on each leg of the panel (not my normal configuration).

 

 

Thinking that this might be a dual-band "echo" that is somehow not being transmitted to the ISY, I replaced the 2477D with a 2477S. To my surprise this worked flawlessly.

 

2477S V.42 (I2CS) Switch wired in the 2477D dimmer location.

Programs enabled/disabled has no effect - program counts consistently.

Passive coupler installed/removed has no effect.

Accesspoints installed/removed has not effect.

 

Hopefully someone smarter than I can make sense of this...

 

I ran another more comprehensive test today of 12 different switchlink dimmers. All of the dual band dimmers displayed the problem where it took took toggles to get the variable to register an increase of one. All the non dual band switches responded as you would want with one toggle increasing the variable one. Any thoughts on why dual band could be linked to this issue?

 

This is the test program. All I did was change the switch in the if statement and monitor the count on the integer variable to track changes in it's value with each on command of the selected switch.

If

Control 'TOP landing lights' is switched On

Then

$iBathroom_Fan_Counter += 1

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

I agree -

I tried this on my one (only) 2477D V.40 and received the same results and virtually identical event log. I have tried disabling programs, removing my passive coupler, and adding accesspoints to no avail. The ISY seems to regard every other paddle press as a "duplicate" event.

 

By slowing the paddle presses to 1 every 3 seconds, the ISY recognizes the presses as "unique" events.

 

This does appear to be something related to the 2477D or the way that the ISY interprets its communications. I have been running similar counting programs on non-dual band relays and dimmers since variables were introduced (fan timer programs). I have never seen a hiccup on these.

 

Hello mfranzel,

 

If I understand the above correctly, you are using the KPL relay (2486S?) to control a standard duplex outlet.

 

You may very well already know this but, the KPL is not rated to control a duplex outlet. It is rated for "Wired-in incandescent lighting and inductive loads". You could overload the KPL by plugging in an "inappropriate" device at the duplex outlet.

 

If this is the configuration that you are using, please do not try to put a leviton filter between the KPL and the outlet. The leviton filters are only rated at 5 amps.

 

Hello again mfranzel,

 

I am not trying to upset you. In my original post, I was inquiring about your configuration (kpl controlling an outlet). I should have posted this as a direct question. You had indicated that your Keypadlinc was a non-dual band unit. The only non-dual band Keypadlinc relays that I know of are the 2486S units which are rated at 13 Amps.

 

Do you have a 2486S relay Keypadlinc controlling a standard outlet? You can check this using the ISY - click on My-Lighting and then find the device type in the right hand pane (under "Type").

 

If that is the configuration (please respond), I believe it does not comply with NEC code (as Brian also indicated).

 

I was actually more concerned about you trying to place a filter between the KPL and the outlet. The filters are rated at 5 Amps while the KPL is rated at 13 Amps. Adding a filter to this configuration would have been against code AND unsafe.

Sorry, 1 outlet or many makes no difference. It's against code.

 

Whether or not this is a safety issue is debatable. Enough discussion - I'll climb off my high horse.

 

From your description, your CFL's are using the GU24 base. I have not seen LEDs with this base locally.

 

Rather than spending money on new bulbs, you could try plugging your lamps into a filterlinc (assuming you have one). If this solves the problem, you may want to try different bulbs. If it does not, you may have another "unknown" load on the circuit.

The KPL in the wall is an On/Off and it controls a switched outlet... Aka my nightstand lamps.

 

And yes, you are correct. When the load is on (the lamps), signals do not get to the appliancelinc but when the load is off, the appliancelinc works perfectly.

 

Hello mfranzel,

 

If I understand the above correctly, you are using the KPL relay (2486S?) to control a standard duplex outlet.

 

You may very well already know this but, the KPL is not rated to control a duplex outlet. It is rated for "Wired-in incandescent lighting and inductive loads". You could overload the KPL by plugging in an "inappropriate" device at the duplex outlet.

 

If this is the configuration that you are using, please do not try to put a leviton filter between the KPL and the outlet. The leviton filters are only rated at 5 amps.