shannong

Agreed! And one of my most useful tools.

Tablets have USB ports. Zwave USB dongles can be had for $35.

Disagree. I don't know many people under 25 without tablet or laptop. Tablets can be had for under $100 and the hacker tools are freely downloaded from the internet. Easier to drive and press and button than stand in front of a door with a drill or other tool.

A word of caution on the Kwikset models that have the "Smartkey" feature. I've been debating this one a lot with myself. I'd really like that capability and looked at many locks including Kwikset, Schlage, and Morning Industries. However, I've decided to forego a wireless lock at this point since it's only a matter of time (or is already available) before a vulnerability is exploited and somebody cruising streets with a laptop or tablet can detect and open locks that are based on Zwave, Zigbee, etc. The idea and likelihood that somebody could cruise by, detect I have an affected lock, hit a button on their tablet to unlock my door and stroll in without forced entry I find untenable. I would consider it imperative to have a security system if you're going with a wireless lock so that you would have some way to detect unwanted entry and you should definitely have it on at night while you're sleeping. I'm going to go with something that can be operated by wires and activate it via a relay with my security system. There is a hole in that I did integrate my Elk security system with my ISY. The ISY uses Insteon and Zwave. That means you could hack the ISY over Zwave/Insteon wireless and then hack at the security system over the Ethernet network. I find that attack vector too unlikely and difficult to worry about.

I was trying to noodle through that one. I was contemplating whether it would be necessary to have a drain valve for the hot water lines and the cold water to be most effective. Seems like I would if the goal is to remove as much water from the house lines to reduce the amount that can leak inside. As for interrupting the hot water heater itself at the inlet and outlet pipes, I couldn't come up with a reason for putting anything there. Water exits the top of the tank to enter the house so without water pressure it can only pull in water via siphoning which I don't think would happen in most circumstances. With a drain open outside for on the hot water pipes, that definitely wouldn't be possible. The hot water heater is in the garage and obviously holds a lot of water. If it was leaking and the water supply was shutoff, it would drain itself out in the garage on a floor sloped to drain out towards the door. No real harm.

By that argument, all shutoff valves are a waste since the end result is the same in that you must still show up with a towel to clean up what leaked out before the valve shutoff the water. The expected end result change with any shutoff valve is to reduce as much as possible the amount of water to leak out, clean up, and avoid damage. Obviously the main shutoff means the leak can't go on for ever. Great start and if I only accomplish that I'll feel much better. My idea of a supplemental exterior drain valve may or may not help. I plan to test with one of my outside faucets and some simulated leaks. Logically to me it seems it would have a noticeable impact as there is still pressure in the lines when the main is shutoff and that pressure is pushing water out whatever leak you have. And having a place for water to drain out means gravity is robbed of it's push on getting water out as well. Especially if the drain is at an outside spigot with a hose that is on a downhill grade so that it's lower than the pipes in the slab thus siphoning and draining as much as possible. On the side of my house, that's easily possible. I'll let you know the results of my testing.

I don't see any issues you bring up in your last post that are relevant to safety as originally warned about. As for redundancy, I already mentioned in the original post that my Elk already has a battery backup for a week and plans for battery backup for the valves. Manual options are obviously available as the Elk valves have a handle for manual operation to open and close them. I also plan to program a Function key on the Elk for controlling the valves. I don't see anything about this system that poses the need for additional level of backup. These things are a risk (probability combined with impact) vs cost vs benefit analysis. The risk is low as the probability is low (long term power outage, failed valve, etc) and the impact of wasting water is low. So the cost to add additional systems or another level of backup seems unwarranted. If I'm missing something please help drive home the idea.

What would be the safety issues that you're thinking of? I can tell you that I have left the hose on in the backyard MANY times and sometimes even overnight. Sucks for the water bill but I've never observed any safety issues. I was planning to install a pulse flow meter for the hose in the backyard just for that reason. What redundancies are you thinking would be necessary? Seems simple. Add logic in ISY and Elk to check status of both valves which can be done with the Elk valves. If InsideValve is OPEN and OutsideValve is Open THEN Close OutsideValve. Overall it seems low risk. The only risk I see is wasting water and dollars on the water bill. Small cost for the protection added of being able to drain pressure and water from the house during a leak.

I'm aware of the issue residual water in the pipes. However, local control at each outlet is challenging. Also, that assumes the problem is AFTER the valve, which may not be the case. I'm toying with the idea of an outside spigot with another control valve attached that would open when a leak sensor fires so that while the main valve is closing to shutoff water to the house that one would be opening to drain pressure and remaining water from the house.

Thought my post below might be of interest to those here on this thread. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13832

Greetings. I'm in the process of setting up my leak detection accompanied with an auto shutoff valve. I'll be using the Elk WSV2 to shut off the main water inlet. It will be controlled by my Elk M1 alarm system rather than the ISY directly, although the ISY will be able to trigger it via the integration module. I can't wire all the areas of the house I need leak detection so I must use wireless. I had purchased a two Insteon Leak sensors but haven't been impressed so far. Insteon RF is attenuated drastically through wood, etc. Also, my device count I'll need at least 16 and I didn't like the idea of spending $440+ more dollars on sensors (4 packs at Costco for $100). I'm also worried about the reliability of the Insteon RF signal and lack of functionality during power outages. My Elk system also has a Honeywell wireless receiver. I had several old 5816 wireless sensors (standard wireless door sensors) from the previous system and decided to see if I could make my own simple, cheap, and reliable sensor. The 5816 has an internal set of contacts (N/O or N/C) for wiring an external zone in addition to the internal reed. I connected these contacts to two wires that I screwed out the backplate and serving as external wet sensors that close the N/O contacts. I've tested it and it works great. This RF signal provides much better coverage especially when put behind cabinets, appliances, etc where the Insteon RF is challenged. The battery in these guys last easily 5 years. They provide a low battery notice and generate a device failure if a heartbeat hasn't been received in 12 hours. You can buy a 10 pack of these for ~$185 making the price per device ~$18. Since I plan to have the Elk control the shutoff valve, it's preferable to have the Elk sense the leak. The Elk and its Honeywell wireless module are more reliable than Insteon and ISY (Insteon protocol issues not an ISY issue). Also, the Elk security system has a battery backup than lasts more than a week and I can use a small battery backup on the power supply for the shutoff valve which means I can detect leaks during power outage AND still shutoff the supply valve. That isn't possible with any scenario involving Insteon products. Another advantage is that you can mount the 5816 on the wall/cabinet off the floor away from water damage and have the wires extend to the surface (rather than screws penetrating the backplate) where you want to sense water. For my dishwasher and washing machine, it means I can mount the transmitter accessible easily inside the cabinet with the wires penetrating a small hole into the area to sense water. Makes servicing it super easy. Big bonus for this one. The replacement batters are CR123a and thus cheaper than a AA lithium used by the Insteon devices. Finally, you can use longer screws of your choosing when making the sensor leads to elevate the sensor higher of the floor. Like the Insteon, this unit is not sealed. However, elevating the unit a 1/2" above the surface should suffice in most situations although you could make it as high as you like. If you're using the Elk wireless receiver or GE instead, there are similar versions for those. However, they don't have the cheap transmitter option like the 5816. The pic is my prototype. I'll use different screws for my final version and add two feet to the oppose side to elevate the entire sensor off the floor when not mounting it. Does anyone see problems with my setup and idea? Suggestions? I'd love feedback.

Ah... Skipped on by it because it was on the data bus connection page. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

It's referenced as a feature with "One Programmable Switched Positive Voltage Output" that I had overlooked. And it's actually not documented anywhere in the owner's manual showing the location of the connections or providing any specifications. Where did you get the 50ma rating? Is the output voltage 12V DC?

I now realize connecting it to the Elk M1 will be easier than I thought (but more expensive) and I won't have to wait until I'm ready for a more involved project. As usual, there's an alarm keypad right inside the door leading in from the garage. I can run a wire through the wall into the garage to add an output expander on the 4-wire bus daisy chained off the keypad. My keypad is an M1KP2 which has one wired supervised zone input. I can connect that to the relay for sensing the status of the valve. Since I can use my keypad to monitor the status I won't need an IOLinc so that offsets about a third of the cost of the output expander. My Insteon system will still know the status and be able to activate the valve since I'm running the Elk module on my ISY while benefiting from the reliability of a hardwired solution directly to the Elk M1 panel. Perfect! The UPS on the Elk M1 panel will last at least 7 days with no power but probably longer. I'll by a smaller UPS to run the valve in the garage locally. It's overly simple and I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before. Since I'll know the opening/closing of the valve with the arming/disarming of the system will be 100% reliable, I'm more inclined to shutoff the water upon exit. Thanks for helping to lead me down the right path.

Agreed. I have both Elk and Honeywell wireless transceivers but I haven't seen anything to provide a wireless relay controlled by the panel. I'll probably run a multi-strand cable from the garage to the wiring closet where the Elk is a later date. I'll probably have to run it on the exterior under he soffit and penetrate the wiring closet from the outside. It's unfortunate but I don't see another way. Via what mechanism are you activating the valve with the Elk?

I've really been struggling with this one. I like the reduced risk associated with having it off when away. Not only does it protect against the rare event of power outage during a leak but it also statistically means I'm far less likely to have a leak at all while away. I'm away from home 25% of the time so that means having it off would leave no pressure to have a leak at all during that time. My dishwasher and washing machine run up to an hour so I'd need a delay at least that long. The landscapers are here at any given time on Friday and need the water on then. Ice maker in the fridge wouldn't be able to fill. So there's that..... It is an electric motor. How many times can it operate until failure? I'm have no clue. Cycling it a minimum of 2 times a day and often 4 or more means it will fail a lot sooner than running a test program once a month to make sure it's still working. I also worry about the Insteon command to turn it back on failing as they occasionally do when returning home and dealing with the WAF of no water because of the HA system. The full-on HA project is already a sticky subject at times. When I think about all those things and then consider how rare it would be for there to be a power outage during a leak I shy away from the idea. Perhaps I'll feel differently once fully installed, and I've tested it out for a bit.

The valve is an electric motor which I expect to fail at some point. And that motor is controlled by my HA which can introduce its own problems. I want to be able to route around the valve should it fail or other issue arrive. With a bypass valve, any family member or someone home sitting for me could easily find it and turn it to restore water to the home for whatever situation occurs. I also get the benefit of being able have the water to the home on while testing, replacing, or doing whatever to the valve and setup. It will only cost a few extra bucks so the benefits far outweigh the cost to me.

I'm not a plumber but I play one on the internet.

That's my plan for the most part for the inlet setup. However, I had planned to put a 1/4-turn ball valve for the main shutoff before the "D" supplying the WSV2. I see you're using a compression valve. It's my belief and understanding that ball valves are more reliable than compression valves and in the event of a catastrophic leak a ball valve is easier and quicker to shutoff with a 1/4 turn vs several rotations of a compression valve. Especially if the contraption itself is spraying water as the source of the leak. Or think of somebody besides you needing to shut it off. It's hard to get a 1/4 turn on a ball valve wrong vs a compression valve. Panic..Panic... Which way? Turn.. Turn.. Other way.. Turn....Turn...Keep going! Main water line --1/4 turn ball shutoff----3-way ball valve---D-ring---WSV2 on top---straight pipe on bottom-- 3-way ball valve---> house inlet What are you thoughts on that?

Smarthome apparently was monitoring this thread and realized a mistake. The price just jumped to $514. Drats.

I'm working on my solution for this right now as well. I appreciate all the comments and ideas on this thread. I chose the (much!) more expensive Elk valve instead of the Smarthome-branded option or other similar choices due to the ability to detect the state of the valve (open or closed) and because of the built-in manual on/off handle. I also also have more comfort with such a product from a professional security company on the second generation of the product vs the more cheap looking option from SH and a few others. Mine will be triggered by my ISY instead of my Elk M1 to due wiring difficulties. Sure, power is my enemy in this case but I'm measuring the risk vs probability vs cost and I'm happy with where I end up. I'm in the South where we don't experience power outages associated with cold weather (not once in my 35 yrs here) when the rare freeze-broken pipe down here is also a threat. Power outages have been rare overall so it would have to be a rare fluke to have a pipe burst during a power outage. (fingers crossed) Perhaps in the future will all the other HA projects are done I'll upgrade it with a hard wire to the Elk M1 and add a UPS to the local 12V supply. I also created a diagram of sorts using the beginnings from tbossela and wiring instructions from EricK plus a bit of googling to verify pin #s, etc. I tried to make it a cross between a conceptual diagram and a schematic to get the best of both worlds to make it easy for the typical DIY'er to understand. I created it in Visio if anyone wants the source file to make their own modifications. I created my own IOLinc dummy for the diagram which you might find useful for other drawings. The Elk diagram came from their documentation plus a random image of power supply off the interwebs. I ordered the following relay from Amazon for a few bucks. There is a 5-pin wiring harness available to make the connections easy with the to easily disconnect/reconnect. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PHLQJW/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks to all that contributed to this. I love my Sonos setup and this makes it and the ISY a bit more useful. I don't actually want to control my Sonos via ISY per se but rather just pause the music when leaving rooms and/or all systems when Away scene is activated leaving the house. This one feature alone was enough to get me to purchase the Network Module today.

I highly recommnend you read the excellent thread linked below. It explains the basics for Insteon and ISY related to controllers, responders, linking, scenes, etc. http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4026

I agree. Too much traffic unless you have an error free Insteon network (no retransmits). Unless you have put in a lot of filters, I doubt that's the case. I had this setup for a while for the same exact purpose. If I watched it, it had noticeable pauses and the blink cycles weren't evenly timed. I decided to test some traffic while it was running. I updated a KPL which generates a lot of Insteon traffic. I would have a failure 1 out of 5 times. I now just turn on the light and raise the LED ON-brightness to 15. I also send a text message to my phone. My conclusion was exactly as TJF. Would be great if Smartlabs added a localized blink function that could be called. The KPLs do blink a few times when using non-toggle mode to let you know the button was pushed. It would be such as simple and useful addition to make.

If you want to leave them in as Controllers, the dimming level can be set for each node within the Scene by clicking on it. The top level scene settings are for when ISY activates the scene. When you select each controller, it allows the setting of on levels for when each individual controller is turning on to activate the scene.