shannong

I used aluminum duct tape. It is has better workability than aluminum foil. I left the paper on and put black tape on the edge facing the board. That allowed me to create a collar that went completely over the screw terminals and touching the board. I then covered the entire length of wires to the entrance hole of the housing. Since the aluminum tape was actually in this port it was touching the metal frame thus grounding it. Sadly, it made no difference.

For the most part. I added a few of the regular culprits to my HouseLinc instance to use their ping utility. That allowed a continuous quantitative measure without me manual operating the devices and keeping count.

I discovered the primary offender in my house. It was a multi-function laser jet printer. It was a significant signal suck when idle and when running apparently was also spewing noise. My worst performing device went from a ping success rate of 85% to better than 99% after putting the printer on a Filterlinc.

Maybe. The difficult part will be where the wires fan out to each of the contact screws. It is. Why do you say that? I'm not disagreeing just looking for details.

The timing is easily identified after watching it about a hundred times. It occurs when the electric igniters begin sparking to ignite the gas. So I assume there are voltage spikes on the lines 3-4/sec. Oddly the two igniters are fed from two different spots on the control board. One is a simple one-wire bladed connection and the other also a one-wire entering into a black cylinder on the board.

Arrrgh! Energy mode just turned itself on. Looks like the only answer is a inline solution of some fashion to neutralized the spikes/noise.

Oops. I deleted it because I figured out what I was doing wrong. Sorry you saw it and typed out a response in the interim. Connecting the on board 24VAC transformer of the furnace to an external 120VAC power source didn't resolve the issue. All wiring and connections are being down in the mechanical closet with the furnace. When attempting to connect a separate 24VAC transformer I was putting one of the leads of my multimeter on the neutral on the 120VAC side and looking for a zero reading on one of the 24VAC terminals. However, I didn't have the transformer grounded so I wasn't getting a zero reading through any combination. Once I grounded it to the metal frame of the furnace then... Viola! I now have a separate 24VAC transformer powered external of the furnace that is also happens to be connected to a surge supressor, although same branch circuit. The common/neutral wires of the two power systems are connected together. All is working as expected. So far I've cycled it about 10 times without the damned Energy mode engaging but that isn't enough to verify that the problem is eradicated. I'll have to monitor over the next 24 hours. I've got an ISY program setup to detect set point changes that would be indicative of Energy mode being enabled locally at the thermostat. Thanks for your continued help.

Hopefully. But I'm not optimistic it'll happen quickly. I looked for chat, phone number, or a forum thread but couldn't find any of those. Email was the only option I could find.

I played with the trial version of HS3Pro before buying my ISY about 2 months ago. I can't say that one is better than the other since I know only a little about ISY and even less about HS3. Cost was not a consideration for me. As the controller for a lot more expensive components being built around it a $200-$300 differential is a bad reason to choose unless it's the tie breaker. HS3 is far more flexible than ISY, IMO. There are probably a hundred or more plugins that are free and for purchase to talk to damn near everything I've ever heard of. Since it runs on an x86 box, just about anything can be integrated into HS3 via serial or USB. You can even easily add things into HS3 without integrating it since it could be added to the same workstation where it can put data in a file for HS3 to easily pickup and vice versa. You can use the GUI to write scripts in HS3 like ISY or you can create your own scripts with it's native VB.net support or using almost anything like Perl, Python, etc since it can call external scripts as well. So why did I choose ISY over HS3? First, I decided to base my HA almost entirely on Insteon. There's a chance I might use some Z-wave if forced. ISY already had great Insteon support. HS3 itself is very new and still buggy lacking many basic plugins that haven't yet been migrated from HS2. In fact, it's basically still beta although they've quit actively calling it that in the last month or so. I tested the Insteon plugin for HS3 and it was severely lacking and also felt like a beta. The ISY had a strong community that spoke well of it and specifically saying it was stable and reliable. That's pretty much the opposite of HS3. I also knew that Z-wave for ISY was in beta so I would have that option soon with the ISY. I figured I could do a lot with the ISY quickly without learning VB or another scripting language, although the idea of doing so doesn't bother me. If figured if I really go far with the HA effort and later feel like I'm being limited by the ISY, I'll also buy HS3 and let them coexist since there's a plugin to provide full integration, in beta of course. ISY v5.x is around the corner (so I'm told and hoping) with enhanced variable support and Z-wave rolling out also. So I don't think the ISY will be holding back anytime soon.

I've been kicking this around in my head. During lunch today I came up with another idea. The board is supplied by 120V AC from the house. Obviously things like the blower and other components use the 120VAC. There is a 120VAC lead that comes off the board to a separate 24VAC transformer that then connects back to the board to supply 24VAC to the thermostat and any other components needing the stepped down power. I was thinking I could supply that 24VAC transformer with a separate external 120VAC rather than from the control board. This might isolate it from the voltage spikes occurring when the electric igniter is arcing.

I just discovered something that might make this more likely to be an issue. The 2441ZTH RF thermostats only send updates once a minute even when connected to an external power supply. Also, the temp sensor on the unit is very sensitive registering changes quickly. When I blow in the side vents very lightly it changes by several degrees immediately and falls back down within a few seconds. Those two things combined might make it slip from one half degree increment to another during the quiet window thus not registering a full 1 degree change in ambient temperature in my variables. One degree is the difference between the HVAC system being active and not active when hovering around the set point in a home that's been conditioned already to the desired temp.

I was thinking more of the wrapped core kind that are placed inline rather than just the beads where wires run though and confused the two in my head. I probably could harvest a bead that encases the wires by cannibalizing one from a keyboard or probably ten other things I have lying around the house. The first thing I'm going to try tonight is using an external 24VAC power supply.

Perhaps sending them an email will yield results. Thermostat Support: thermostatsupport@venstar.com

So I've decided to start tackling this now, at least for heat. That means really I only need to worry about a scope of 6 degrees. Hopefully by the time I need A/C v5.x will be out. One problem I've run into is that ISY only provides integers in programs. So when the current temp is at a .5 increment, I can't set the current temp variable. If for any reason there is a temperature change that skips from a .5 to another .5 then things could get weird. How oftern might that occur? Dunno. Any way to deal with this currently? Since we can't make use of the floating points in any programs or features of ISY (that I've seen so far), it would seem more useful if the temp displayed and used by ISY was rounded up to integers like the Tstats do themselves and other controllers. Will v5.x with expanded capabilities for variables introduce floating points? I'd actually like to use the half degree resolution of the Tstats for zone control.

Ah.. I found the "test data" in the middle of the postings. At first I had only read the first few pages and last few. You definitely quantified a lot of knowledge that was existing and also debunked some common beliefs. It gives me a good baseline as a troubleshoot my own installation even without a tool. You're approach of measuring signal suckers, strength, and reliability are exactly what I want to do and why I created the post. I actually don't care about decoding actual messages. I don't like the idea of just filtering everything due to cost and unsightly additions. I also don't like to guess in the dark and try to convince myself "Yeah. I think Bedroom 3 seems more reliable since I did X." I also fear of holding myself and family hostage where I avoid adding new things not knowing what affect they might have. If I could just measure that would be awesome. I can feel the light bulbs in my ceiling staring down at me and taunting with the threat they may or may not be signal sucking and interrupting communications with noise. Damn you!

No reasons for apologies. You've done a great service for all working on your project and sharing the info with all those here. I might not have seen the "Test Data Area" as I only read a few of the pages. I'll go back and look for that specifically. I also checkout your site. Thanks for sharing.

I read a good portion of the thread. Interesting but not actually helpful except I did check to make sure none of my LEDs matched those found at that thread to be especially troublesome. A device to measure signal strength and noise in an Insteon environment wouldn't require any licensing. It only needs to listen and report on frequencies relevant to Insteon communications. There isn't an actual need to send/receive Insteon protocol messages to do that. The ISY can provide that mechanism to look at actual commands.

Thanks for the tips.

[quote="Brian H" Noise is not always the problem. A problem electrical device may not be making any power line noise but its internal power line filters. That keep its electronics noise from getting onto the power lines. Is absorbing the Insteon power line signals as noise. Yeah. I'm also looking to identify signal suckers but that requires a measurement of signal strength. I surprised at this stage of the game Smartlabs has not created one or another 3rd party manufacturer.

Some folks feel the X10 noise signal measuring feature is useful in a Insteon environment and others do not. I don't have enough experience to say. Based on Jeff's knowledge which far exceeds mine as a builder of such devices I've elected not to buy one. I still don't agree with his assessment that Insteon is "relatively immune to noise".

I have an all Insteon setup with the ISY994i Pro and a 2413S. I have about 130 devices spread throughout every room in my home (~approx 3300 sqft). Almost every device is dual band except for a handful of devices like the On/Off plugin modules. At least 110 of the devices are dual band if not more. There isn't a room in my house with fewer than two dual-band devices on two different walls. On the branch circuit where the ISY and PLM plugin, all devices are on filters except for two table side lamps with low wattage LED bulbs. I haven't noticed a difference in performance with those lamps On/Off. The PLM is not connected to a power strip, UPS, etc. I'm about to undertake some efforts to identify and filter noise, signal suckers, etc as I have a several devices that don't always respond reliably. I've been researching this in preparation to develop a strategy and acquire any necessary tools. After reading a lot about noise sources, noise types, filters, etc I kept running across the often recommendation for adding more APs. I mostly ignored that recommendation as most of my devices are dual-band and already repeat RF messages. It seems in the earlier days dual-band devices were not the norm. Then I got to thinking... Hey! Wait a minute. Since most of my devices are RF-enabled, they all repeat messages, and RF is retransmitted before powerline then why would noise on the power line matter? My RF-network should be robust enough for full coverage as long as there is an RF-enabled powerline device reliably communicating to my PLM. Sure, there can also be interference in the RF 915Mhz range affecting wireless but I don't have any known sources in my own house except for maybe my microwave which is rarely used. Within each room, I don't seem to have RF issues as I can use the RemoteLinc2 in every room without issue. I'm not asking for assistance troubleshooting the wired issues. I'll have a different thread for that. What are your thoughts on that being a non-issue with a good wireless mesh coverage with the dual-band devices?

Here's the two key points I got in an email from the owner of JVE. "Insteon systems are relatively immune to noise" and "Both the XTBM and XTBM-Pro will try to identify Insteon signals as different from other noise...I would not recommend either of them for someone with a strictly Insteon system." I don't agree with the first as I very much believe and see the results of noise in my Insteon environment. It seems if they identify Insteon separately from other noise they would still be useful for troubleshooting noise which I stated was my main goal, but if the designer and maker of them thinks it's a bad choice I'm not going to buy them.

Smartlabs is telling me that using an external 24V power supply separate from the furnace will alleviate the issue. I'm doubtful of that because MWareman had previously posted about that, but their going to send me one free to try. I'll update when I receive and test.

Never mind. Discard the surge suppressor work around. I was doing further testing tonight and discovered I couldn't turn on the AC. Being winter and all it was last on the list. When 'Cooling' would turn on, nothing would happen and sometimes the tsat would blank out/reboot. I tried removing the yellow wire from the surge suppressor and going direct with it. It worked fine but when I tested again with Heat the problem returned where the Energy mode would engage when the electric igniters kicked off.

Not an encouraging signal for sure. They both seem to have power issues. I not sure how much would be the same. It's my understanding that HVAC systems are based on 24V whereas this device is somewhere between 5V-7.5V. It also can switch from AC to DC and back.