madmartian Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 Basicly I have some 6-button KeypadLincs and I don't want the LEDs under the A through D scene buttons lighting up - ever. Unfortunately, no matter what I do the darn things light up. I've tried setting the brightness level to 0. I've tried turning the LED off using button presses (I found instructions that work for the big ON and OFF buttons, but not the A-D buttons). There must be some way of disabling the LEDs in the scene buttons.
LeeG Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 There is no mechanism to stop the A-D button LEDs from turning On when the buttons are in Toggle mode. It would not be possible to know when a button is On or Off if the LEDs did not work. They can be put into non-toggle Off mode such that after blinking twice they turn Off. They would be of little use for Scene control. An ISY Program can be triggered when an Off command is received from one the Secondary buttons and perform whatever activity is needed.
kclenden Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 There must be some way of disabling the LEDs in the scene buttons. I don't have a KeypadLinc, but couldn't you just pull the button cover, put some black electrician tape on the back of the cover, and then put the button cover back on?
madmartian Posted March 17, 2013 Author Posted March 17, 2013 In non-toggle-off mode indeed the buttons flash and then go out as you describe. However, in that mode I can't get the scene to turn a light on. If I switch to non-toggle-on (as I had before) the scene works properly but the button stays lit. Non-toggle-on also has the weird side effect of not really being non-toggle. If you accidentally double-tap the button, all the lights in the scene go on! That doesn't happen in non-toggle-off mode. My scene is pretty simple - turns four lights off and one light on. No dimming or mood lighting. I'm not sure why non-toggle-off mode would prevent me from turning a light on, but it does.
oberkc Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 My scene is pretty simple - turns four lights off and one light on. No dimming or mood lighting. I'm not sure why non-toggle-off mode would prevent me from turning a light on, but it does. It seems to me that when one sends an OFF command ( including via a keypad configured to send OFF commands) the normal and expected response would be for lights to turn off. Also, I have had mixed success adjusting the backlight levels of a keypad. Have you tried using the manual method as described in the user manual for the keypad. I can tell you that my understanding is that keypads CAN be set to zero backlight. Having said this , the ISY would allow you to accomplish that which you seek, but would require the use of a few programs to make it happen, rathther than using the keypad button as a controller in a scene. It would look something like: If Control keypad is turned off Then Set scene off Else
LeeG Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 oberkc “I can tell you that my understanding is that keypads CAN be set to zero backlight.†If you mean by this that all the buttons on a KeypadLinc can be set in such a way as to not turn On when a button is pressed please explain how this is done.
oberkc Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 If you mean by this that all the buttons on a KeypadLinc can be set in such a way as to not turn On when a button is pressed please explain how this is done. I recall having some of mine where the backlight level is completely off. I never liked them this way, so I quickly readjusted them. Also, because of my mixed success with adjusting backlight levels via ISY, I have always adjested this manually via the method in the manual ( page 12 in the latest manual) setting the brightness level completely off. I havent done this in quite a while. Perhaps this ability is differernt in older versions of keypad. Perhaps I remember wrong. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to verify.
LeeG Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 I agree that the Backlight level for buttons which are Off can be set to what is LEDs visually Off. I want to know how to set the BackLight level so that buttons which are On and Off have the same non visible LED level. That is to say it is impossible by looking at a button to know if the button is On or Off. I have never been able to achieve this using commands through the ISY or through the manual adjustment level. It is this state that I want to know how to achieve. The state where it is impossible to know if a button is On or Off.
Teken Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 I know I was able to do this on a older KPL. It was done by accident at the time of programming. This was about the same time I noticed that the ISY did not track and follow what I expected the levels the system said it would? Pressing the levels in both up and down to achieve the back light was fruitless. Now, somewhere doing the manual method I was able to do exactly what the OP stated. Keep in mind the LED is still lit (even if extremely dim) when pressed. But, for all intent its as close as you can get to being off / dimmed off. Teken . . .
madmartian Posted March 17, 2013 Author Posted March 17, 2013 I'm in agreement with LeeG - it should be possible to turn off the LED completely, not just dim it really low. To me the A-D buttons are not really "scenes" but command buttons I use to set the house to a certain mode - such as shutting all lights off and turning on the hall light when I leave the house. I can ALMOST achieve what I want. As described earlier, I can get the lights to work, but not the LEDs, in non-toggle-on mode. I can get the LEDs to work (stay off) but not the hall light going on in non-toggle-off mode. I would love to get non-toggle-off mode to send commands as listed and not just turn all devices off. Since an accidental double-tap turns everything on in the non-toggle-on mode, that mode is kinda pointless. I accidental double-tap frequently since I am used to doing a double-tap for the instant on mode of the regular SwitchLinc switches. It should be easier to say "run this scene" - and do nothing else I didn't ask for - when pressing the button...
LeeG Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 You can produce the LED Off state as the final state by removing the Secondary buttons as Controllers of all Scenes. Trigger a Program with button A Status On. Have the Program perform the Scene activity you want to accomplish along with issuing a Set Scene xxxx Off that has the 4 Secondary buttons as Responders. This way button A produces only the effect you want regardless of single/double tap and all the Secondary buttons are turned Off. The down side is there will be a slight delay triggering a Program versus direct Scene control. Also the KPL button will blink On until the triggered Program turns all the buttons Off. The On command directs the device(s) to turn On to some % On Level. Turning On to 0% On Level has the effect of turning the device(s) Off. There is no logical counterpart for the Off command. The Off command directs the device(s) to turn Off. There is no concept of an Off command turning a device On.
djordan2 Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 Has anyone managed to configure the LED brightness via the ISY controller? It can be configured for 0-15 for ON and OFF, and the option is available for each individual button, but it has zero effect. I'm fine with the scene buttons A-D lighting up dimly when on if they are completely off when the button is off. I managed that manually, but then I've still got a problem with the main load buttons. They too are off when not activated and dimly lit when active, but the problem is that one or the other is always active! When the bedroom light is off the "OFF" bar is lit. Someone above alluded to a method to turn that part off, but I haven't been able to find it myself. Is there a way or am I going to have to resort to electricians tape?
LeeG Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I believe setting the ON/OFF button to non-toggle Off mode will result in OFF button being dark when the KPL load is Off. This is covered in the Smarthome forum if you have access.
fba Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I've been messing with the keypadlincs myself lately, and also have some experience with low level Insteon messages. There *IS* an Insteon command that will turn off all of the lights on the KPL. I don't know if the ISY guys have chosen not to implement it, or if it wasn't available at the time the KPL drivers were originally written. (Or both.) However, from what I have observed, the code doesn't seem to be used by the ISY. (Or, I have not figured out how to use it yet. I'm a bit of a newbie.) If you happen to have a Linux box kicking around, and you wouldn't mind hooking your PLM up to it and running a few commands, I can point you to an Insteon daemon I wrote and give you instructions on how to turn the lights off. Once you do that, they should stay off unless you factory reset the device. You could then hook your PLM back up to the ISY and I would expect they would remain off. If any of the ISY guys are reading this, I would love to see a feature request for this capability. I think it has some real usefulness. I mentioned in another thread that I used the total backlight on/off state for an indicator of my garage door being open or closed. That idea seems to be unpopular, but another place I used it was for a KPL in my bedroom. It is nice to have the LEDs all lit most of the time, however, when I turn out the lights to go to bed the KPL is EXTREMELY bright. Right now, I am trying to set the backlight and buttons to 0, and it seems to turn off the backlight, but the buttons remain at full power. This decreases the brightness, but I liked it even more when it just went completely off. Also for the ISY guys, I suspect you know which command does this already, but if you are unsure, I can look it up in my old code and let you know.
LeeG Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 fba The ISY does not support that command. It is a bit wise command that affects all the KPL buttons making it difficult to use. A Program using such a command would have to be aware of manually operated KPL buttons (whether On or Off) as well as buttons operated by Scenes running independent of the Program in question as well as Programs affecting other buttons. I don't see the ISY implementing this command. The Insteon Direct On/Off commands which would be the logical candidate have no means of indicating which KPL button should react to the command. Thus the need to use a Scene for Secondary KPL button On/Off control where a specific button is identified.
djordan2 Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 I believe setting the ON/OFF button to non-toggle Off mode will result in OFF button being dark when the KPL load is Off. This is covered in the Smarthome forum if you have access. Thanks, in hindsight this was obvious. The ISY failed to make the configuration change however so I had to do it manually based on the KPL instruction manual. The ON button still lights up when the load is on, but that's fine. It's now acting as I want it to. It would really be nice if each button were independantly configurable...
LeeG Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 If referring to the ON and OFF buttons being configured separately I doubt that will ever happen. Although separate buttons they share the same Group number making independent identification and configuration impossible. If referring to the Secondary buttons they can be configured individually. Each button can be set to a different toggle/non-toggle/On Off mode.
djordan2 Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 I was thinking about the LED brightness level, not the toggle. I want to have one button turn on all lights and another turn them all off, and I don't want the buttons to light up. I can set one up as no-toggle/on and another as no-toggle off, but then the no-toggle/on lights up both buttons if they are included in the scene. The reason I want to avoid lighting them up is I have other buttons and scenes that can affect some or all of the lights in the main scene and that can leave the "ALL ON" button lit even after all the lights in the scene are off. (For example I have three other buttons to individually control lamplinc modules and another button that controls a scene that sets some of them at 25%.) Can I do this with Insteon scenes, or will I need to write a program to handle it?
LeeG Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 A Program is needed for that type of logic where all devices being Off is necessary for a button to be Off. There is an approach that folks on the Smarthome forum have discussed. Set the KPL to 8 button mode but leave the 6 button frame in place. This allows buttons A&B to be controlled totally separately from G&H. This eliminates the relationship between ON and OFF buttons that exist when in 6 button mode.
djordan2 Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 A Program is needed for that type of logic where all devices being Off is necessary for a button to be Off. There is an approach that folks on the Smarthome forum have discussed. Set the KPL to 8 button mode but leave the 6 button frame in place. This allows buttons A&B to be controlled totally separately from G&H. This eliminates the relationship between ON and OFF buttons that exist when in 6 button mode. It's not that I want all lights to be off for the KPL to be off, but rather I don't want it on in the first place. It's more like a trigger to light all the lights which can then be modified via other buttons or scenes. So for example you could turn on all the lights on the main floor, then turn some off manually. Later you might run a scene that alters the main floor to "Movie Mode" with most lights off and some at low levels. Then if you turn off "Movie Mode" all the lights are off. If I have the KPL button light up when triggered it would just stay lit up through all these changes. I'm thinking the best way to handle it might be via a program which watches for the KPL button status change as a trigger, sets all the appropriate lights on (perhaps through a scene to make it run faster), then turns the KPL button off. That divorces the button from the scene so it can be turned off while the scene is still active.
Xathros Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 Why not just set the onlevel of the button(s) to 0 in the scene definition(s)? -Xathros
djordan2 Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 Why not just set the onlevel of the button(s) to 0 in the scene definition(s)? -Xathros That works for the other KPL buttons in the scene, but there is no option to set the level of the button being pressed. I guess ISY figures you manually pressed it so that's what you want it set as.
LeeG Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 The Insteon "Controller" link in the KPL that represents the button being pressed does not have the ability to affect the status of the button LED. Not an ISY choice. Using the Program to turn the button LED Off is the approach. Unless you want to assign the button to non-toggle Off mode. The button LED blinks twice and turns Off. The Program is still called, just looking for an Off command . Again, if a 6 button KPL the ON button does not allow that.
fba Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 LeeG - We must be thinking of different commands. What you outlined didn't ring any bells as being something I had written in my own code, so I pulled it up to check. The command I used was the options command (CMD1 = 0x1f) and setting bit 4. That turned on or off all of the back light. When that bit is set to have the back light turned on, then the LED levels that you can currently set in the ISY would have effect. However, if that bit is set off, then the LED levels you can set in the ISY didn't seem to make a difference. (They were probably being set, but since that option command seems to be the ultimate on/off switch, it didn't show anything.) So, while I understand the complications with the command you had in mind, it doesn't seem like the same thing exists with the command I had in mind.
LeeG Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 It does appear we are talking about different commands. 20070810a Removed KeypadLinc and KeypadLinc Relay SD 0x1F02 to 0x1F06, and 0x2Fxx to 0x33xx, added same functionality to ED 0x2E00. Added KeypadLinc and KeypadLinc Relay SD 0x1F02 Get Signal-to-Noise Value. The 0x1F command is a Get Operating Flags rather than setting something. My information is old so your information may be later than my 2007 level command document.
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