Keypad Scene/Remotelinc Program help...

[jmed999]

I currently use a remotelinc2 in a bonus room in 4-scene mode. The d button on the remotelinc turns a scene called "upstairs on" on and the c button turns on a scene called "upstairs off" on.

 

Upstairs on turns a thermostat to 72/68

Upstairs off turns the thermostat to 85/56

 

The programs for the remotelinc is...

If
       Control 'Remotelincs / Upstairs Remotelinc / Upstairs RemotelincC-D' is switched On
Then
       Set Scene 'Upstairs On' On
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

If
       Control 'Remotelincs / Upstairs Remotelinc / Upstairs RemotelincC-D' is switched Off
Then
       Set Scene 'Upstairs Off' On
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Those programs work great for the remotelinc.

 

I just installed a keypalinc at the bottom of the stairs and a keypadlinc at the top of the stairs going to the bonus room. I would like Scene B buttons on both keypadlincs to control the thermostat in the bonus room. When a Scene B button is toggled on it toggles the other Scene B button on (via a scene called "Scene B") and I would like it to turn on the scene called "Upstairs on". When the Scene B button is toggled off I would like it to toggle the other scene B button off and turn the scene "upstairs off" on.

 

I would also like to turn both scene B buttons on when the remotelinc button d is pressed and vise versa when button c on the remotelinc is pressed.

 

How can I do this with programs? Thanks for your help!

[oberkc]

I would also like to turn both scene B buttons on when the remotelinc button d is pressed and vise versa when button c on the remotelinc is pressed.

 

For this, I would remotelinc buttons C and D to your existing scene "Sceme B", as controllers. Once added, select button C from the scene and define ON levels for the two B buttons as 0%. Then select the D button from the scene and define ON levels for the two B buttons as 100%.

 

When a Scene B button is toggled on it toggles the other Scene B button on (via a scene called "Scene B") and I would like it to turn on the scene called "Upstairs on". When the Scene B button is toggled off I would like it to toggle the other scene B button off and turn the scene "upstairs off" on.

 

For this, I would simply update your existing two programs:

 

If
       Control 'Remotelincs / Upstairs Remotelinc / Upstairs RemotelincC-D' is switched On
or
control "KPL button B1" is switched on
or 
control "KPL button B2" is switched on

Then
       Set Scene 'Upstairs On' On
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Make the same change to your other program, except for the condition should be "is switched off", rather than on.

[jmed999]

Thanks for the reply! I added the remolinc buttons c-d to the scene B. Keep in mind that I'm using the remotelinc as a 4 scene remote and not 8. So I didn't need to set on levels of 0% and 100%. This part now works great!

 

I now have the following programs...

 

If
       Control 'Remotelincs / Upstairs Remotelinc / Upstairs RemotelincC-D' is switched On
    Or Control '22.90.00.B' is switched On
    Or Control '22.90.F5.B' is switched On
Then
       Set Scene 'Upstairs On' On
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

If
       Control 'Remotelincs / Upstairs Remotelinc / Upstairs RemotelincC-D' is switched Off
    Or Control '22.90.00.B' is switched Off
    Or Control '22.90.F5.B' is switched Off
Then
       Set Scene 'Upstairs Off' On
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

The remotelinc controls the scene B on the keypadlincs great! The remotelinc and the "scene B" button on the primary keypadlinc controls the thermostat great but the secondary scene B button doesn't control the thermostat that well. I tried the secondary keypadlinc scene B button many times and it only adjusted the thermostat a couple times. So the remotelinc and the primary keypadlinc is working perfectly but not the secondary keypadlinc scene B button.

 

I must have something incorrect. These are both dual band keypadlincs. How can I get the secondary scene B button to work like the primary scene B button?

[oberkc]

Keep in mind that I'm using the remotelinc as a 4 scene remote and not 8. So I didn't need to set on levels of 0% and 100%. This part now works great!

 

Ah! So the C and D buttons are the ON and OFF buttons of a single scene. I am glad you have it working.

 

The remotelinc and the "scene B" button on the primary keypadlinc controls the thermostat great but the secondary scene B button doesn't control the thermostat that well. I tried the secondary keypadlinc scene B button many times and it only adjusted the thermostat a couple times.

 

I am not sure that I understand the difference between primary and secondary keypadlinc. However, when I hear things like not "that well" or a "couple times", this makes me think intermittent problems, to which I instantly wonder if your ISY is, or is not, seeing the commands from some of your keypads. Programs usually work always, or not at all. Communication problems, on the other hand, can be quite hit-and-miss.

 

To test for this, I would open an event viewer and press the mis-behaving keypad button a few times. Does the event viewer always register the button press?

[jmed999]

First of all thanks for your help!

 

Yes, the event viewer does register the secondary keypadlinc scene B button. It seems like it works depending on the staus of the remotelinc button c and d. I haven't figured out the logic yet though. Does the remotlinc need to be off (button c pressed) for the scene B button to turn the "upstairs on" scene on?

[oberkc]

Does the remotlinc need to be off (button c pressed) for the scene B button to turn the "upstairs on" scene on?

 

No. Your progam, as posted, should turn the upstairs scenes on or off, if at least one (which is a logical OR) of the three conditions are met. If one of the keypad B buttons is pressed, status of the remotelinc (and other B button) should be irrelevant.

 

Yes, the event viewer does register the secondary keypadlinc scene B button.

It seems like it works depending on the staus of the remotelinc button c and d.

Are you saying that you saw examples where the event viewer registered an ON or OFF command, yet one of the programs did not initiate!? How are you judging whether "it works"... based on status of upstairs lights, or based upon program status as shown in the ISY admin panel?

[jmed999]

When I say it works I mean I pressed the scene B button and the program activated and initiated the correct scene (either Upstairs On or Upstairs Off) and the thermostat changed correctly.

 

Tonight I tried pressing the Scene B buttons on both keypadlincs with the event viewer on level 3. Sometimes pressing the scene B buttons would work and sometimes they wouldn't. When they didn't work, most of the time nothing showed on the event viewer...other times it didn't work the event viewer showed some activity and the hops left would be either 1 or 0. It never gave an error saying the ISY couldn't communicate with the device.

 

What does it mean if I press the button and no activity shows on the event viewer? I don't think I've ever had this happen.

 

Thanks!

[LeeG]

"What does it mean if I press the button and no activity shows on the event viewer?"

 

There is likely a comm problem. There will be no ISY cannot communicate message. How would the ISY know if a button is pressed and the message does not make it to the PLM. Comm fail messages come from outbound messages that do not get a response.

 

Hops Left=0 on inbound messages can be okay. Depends on the Max Hops=x count of the inbound message. Post the event trace.

[jmed999]

"What does it mean if I press the button and no activity shows on the event viewer?"

 

There is likely a comm problem. There will be no ISY cannot communicate message. How would the ISY know if a button is pressed and the message does not make it to the PLM. Comm fail messages come from outbound messages that do not get a response.

 

Hops Left=0 on inbound messages can be okay. Depends on the Max Hops=x count of the inbound message. Post the event trace.

 

 

Thanks for the respsonse Lee!!!

 

There are really two things going on here. One thing is I sometimes do not get any activity on the ISY event viewer when the button is pressed. This almost has to be a comm problem but I'm not sure what to do about it. When a comm problem exists such that the PLM isn't getting the comm do I troubleshoot like any other comm problem...start flipping breakers, unplugging things, etc???

 

The other thing going on when the button is pressed and the thermostat doesn't adjust (scene doesn't change state) when there is ISY event viewer activity. For this case I don't get the "Can't comm" error. Normally on other devices, if I do have a comm problem (which is rare these days ) and activity does show in the event viewer and the device doesn't change state, I get the "Can't comm" error. So this situation seems different in that I'm not getting the error. If I press the button, get event viewer activity without the "Can't Comm" error, but the thermostat/scene does not change state...is this still a comm error?

 

Thanks guys!

[oberkc]

When a comm problem exists such that the PLM isn't getting the comm do I troubleshoot like any other comm problem...start flipping breakers, unplugging things, etc???

 

 

Yes. However, I would focus on the PLM and the circuit in which it is plugged. Because the PLM is so critical in the operation of the ISY and your insteon system, I filter everything on that circuit. Better yet, add a dedicated circuit for the PLM.

 

The other thing going on is when the button is pressed and the thermostat doesn't adjust (scene doesn't change state) when there is ISY event viewer activity.

 

And this is the point of so many of the earlier questions...is the thermostat not adjusting because the program is not running because the ISY is not seeing the button presses (sounds likely)? Or is the ISY seeing the button presses but not running the program (unlikely in my mind)? Or is the program running, but the thermostat is not seeing the commands issued by the ISY (possible, and possibly the same as causing the failure to see the button presses)? Answers to these questions will help isolate the cause and course of troubleshooting.

 

which is rare these days

Perhaps not as rare as you think?

 

So this situation seems different in that I'm not getting the error.

 

I recall cases where this ISY would issue commands, the device fail to respond, and getting no error messages. I would not get too hung up about this. I think your root cause is comm issues. I suspect it is centered around the PLM. Make sure you don't have lots of other electronic gadgets (UPS? Surge Suppressor?) plugged in the same circuit, or filter them.

[jmed999]

"And this is the point of so many of the earlier questions...is the thermostat not adjusting because the program is not running because the ISY is not seeing the button presses (sounds likely)? Or is the ISY seeing the button presses but not running the program (unlikely in my mind)? Or is the program running, but the thermostat is not seeing the commands issued by the ISY (possible, and possibly the same as causing the failure to see the button presses)? Answers to these questions will help isolate the cause and course of troubleshooting."

 

I don't think it's the stat since it works perfectly with the remotelinc...100% of the time.

 

I guess both issues (when the button is pressed and there is ISY activity and when the button is pressed and there is no ISY activity) is comm related. I do have a UPS plugged into the same circuit. It has never caused a problem and since my comm problems are rare these days I didn't plug the UPS in a filter (since a filter can introduce noise itself). Now that the new keypadlincs are getting comm errors it's time to rethink filtering the UPS.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

I'll post the event viewer results tonight when I get home so you guys can further help diagnose the problem.

[LeeG]

"get event viewer activity without the "Can't Comm" error, but the thermostat/scene does not change state...is this still a comm error?"

 

If the event trace shows the Scene was executed it would likely be a comm problem. A Scene command in ISY does not have ACKs and no retries so they are normally first to see problems when comm is not reliable. "Cannot communicate" errors are usually on outbound direct commands that have ACKs and retries so the application knows when something is not ACKed.

 

With intermittent missing inbound messages, problems with Responders in a Scene, and "cannot communicate" errors it sounds like comm issues.

[jmed999]

"get event viewer activity without the "Can't Comm" error, but the thermostat/scene does not change state...is this still a comm error?"

 

If the event trace shows the Scene was executed it would likely be a comm problem. A Scene command in ISY does not have ACKs and no retries so they are normally first to see problems when comm is not reliable. "Cannot communicate" errors are usually on outbound direct commands that have ACKs and retries so the application knows when something is not ACKed.

 

With intermittent missing inbound messages, problems with Responders in a Scene, and "cannot communicate" errors it sounds like comm issues.

 

 

Very helpful information Lee!!!! I'll have to do some troubleshooting on this!

 

Thanks for your help!

[oberkc]

I don't think it's the stat since it works perfectly with the remotelinc...100% of the time

I agree, that this tends to suggest that the thermostat works. Unless you have a direct scene relationship between the remotelinc and the thermostat (do you?) then this tends to further isolate the problem to communication between the B buttons and the PLM. Unless you have watched the event viewer, confirming reciept of B button commands, THEN confirmed that a program failed to run (still unlikely, in my mind), I would focus on this.

 

Is the problem happening with a specific B button, or all B buttons?

 

but the secondary scene B button doesn't control the thermostat that well

 

I also wish to re-engage here. Your "B" scene includes ALL B buttons (and the remote button) ALL as controllers, correct? No responders? What do you mean by "secondary" buttons?

[jmed999]

"Your "B" scene includes ALL B buttons (and the remote button) ALL as controllers, correct? No responders? What do you mean by "secondary" buttons?"

 

Scene B includes the kepadlinc #1 (primary) button B, keypadlinc #2 (secondary) button B, and the remotelinc button C-D (4 scene toggle mode) all as controllers. Keep in mind, I have 2 keypadlincs here used as a 3 way switch. One is at the bottom of the stairs going to the bonus room and the other is at the top of the stairs. Secondary just means the secondary keypadlinc in the 3-way switch setup.

[jmed999]

"Is the problem happening with a specific B button, or all B buttons?"

 

The remotelinc buttons C-D (4 scene toggle mode) works perfectly everytime! The scene B button on the primary keypadlinc works most of the time. The scene B button on the secondary keypadlinc works only about 10% of the time. Both keypadlincs are on the same circuit.

[LeeG]

"The scene B button on the primary keypadlinc works most of the time. The scene B button on the secondary keypadlinc works only about 10% of the time."

 

There will always be some variation in transmission levels between devices. When nothing shows in the event viewer when a button is pressed it means 4 attempts by the device to notify the PLM have failed to arrive. This means comm with that circuit (with multiple devices on that circuit) is very poor at least at times. Depending on the Max Hops and Hops Left counts on the inbound messages when they do arrive, it will show if the problem is general with that circuit or intermittent which would suggest something that runs intermittently is interfering.

[jmed999]

Great info Lee!

 

Also, the dual band keypadlincs are within 15 ft of the PLM and on the same circuit. I'm thinking those facts could help narrow down the noise/signal sucking electroncis.

 

Thanks!

[jmed999]

It seems like with the dual band keypadlincs being so close to the PLM that the RF signal would reach the PLM regardless of the powerline noise. If there is lots of noise or signal sucking on that circuit from electronics, wouldn't the RF frequency still make it to the PLM?

Does this mean I have some RF interfering with the RF coming from the dual band keypadlincs?

[LeeG]

These are low power RF devices. Many things affect range, how much does the wiring in the box block the signal, what else is between the device and a receiving dual band device. It sounds like the KPLs are on different floors. That is a significant difference in what the RF signal has to pass through to get to the receiver. Easy to test the device in question, connect to an appliance cord and change the plug point. Just getting it out of the box in open air may improve RF communication.

[jmed999]

In this case, the stair case is open so from one keyppadlinc to the other there are no walls, floors, or anything. They have a direct line of site to each other. The PLM is however in a closet with lots of electronics. I'm thinking that is the problem.

[LeeG]

How did you get Dual Band KPLs?

[jmed999]

It's a secret

 

I kid I kid...

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2487S/KeypadLinc-INSTEON-6-Button-Scene-Control-Keypad-with-On-Off-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx

[LeeG]

Sorry, I have those. I thought these were 8 button KPLs.

[oberkc]

The PLM is however in a closet with lots of electronics. I'm thinking that is the problem.

 

Yup.

 

It may not be THE problem, but it is almost certainly A problem. Filters are cheap.