Using an Insteon DIN On/Off Realay with a GFCI Breaker

[ejh3]

I am looking to use a Insteon DIN On/Off realy to power my outdoor receptacles for Xmas lights.

 

My question is, has anyone had issues with installing one of these DIN Relays on a circuit protected with a GFCI Breaker? I attempted doing this install/configuration years ago with an X10 relay, but it tripped the GFI Breaker every time!

 

I guess I'm just looking for a success story on this configuration

 

Thanks!

Ed

[Teken]

I am looking to use a Insteon DIN On/Off realy to power my outdoor receptacles for Xmas lights.

 

My question is, has anyone had issues with installing one of these DIN Relays on a circuit protected with a GFCI Breaker? I attempted doing this install/configuration years ago with an X10 relay, but it tripped the GFI Breaker every time!

 

I guess I'm just looking for a success story on this configuration

 

Thanks!

Ed

 

Ed,

 

Newer style of GFCI's are less prone to this issue. If the GFCI's in your home are still the same one's more than likely you will see the same problem.

 

Upgrade one to Leviton and you should be in good shape. I have several Insteon devices on a GFCI and nothing has ever tripped.

 

Teken . . .

[ejh3]

Thanks Teken! The GFCI Breakers are Leviton, so I should be good to go!

 

Ed

[apostolakisl]

For what its worth, I have used Insteon appliance links and lamp lincs on GFCI plugs inside my home without issue. The GFCI outlets are 4 years old. I assume the x10 modules were popping the gfci because they were allowing some current to go to ground. x10 or Insteon signals themselves should not affect gfci. All kinds of things produce noise in the same frequency area as Insteon/x10 produce their "meaningful noise" and I have never plugged anything into a gfci breaker that popped it no matter how old the breaker or how old the device unless it was leaking current to ground. I have had lots of issues with my outdoor gfci's popping when things get even the slightest bit wet. Very annoying!!!

[ELA]

Hello ejh3,

 

While the probability of success is high

and many have good luck with Insteon and GFCI's

be advised that it is entirely possible for the GFCI to trip on either an X10 or an Insteon signal.

 

I have tripped a newer Leviton GFCI a couple of times now that was directly related to an Insteon signal. There are several factors that figure into success vs. failure.

Too difficult to predict in advance you may have to do a minimal install and test to know.

A few of the factors that determine the results are length of the signal stream, amplitude and frequency of the signal or "noise". Other factors are location of the transmitter relative to the GFCI and receivers/signal suckers.

 

It is well known that any electronic device can be upset by a high enough level of EMI ( noise at a certain amplitude, frequency and duration or repetition rate).

I am not aware of "all kinds of things producing noise at the same freq. as Insteon"). Certainly not at the amplitude that Insteon transmits. There are however many transmitters at widely different frequencies and power levels that have also been known to trip GFCI's, if positioned close enough to them.

 

That is the technical explanation just to be clear that it can and does happen.

 

Based on a wide installed base the success rate is very much in your favor however.

[ejh3]

Well.............

 

The Insteon Din Relay does trip the GFCI breaker when wired correctly. The only way around it was to put the white neutral wire for the Din Relay underneath the white neutral wire for the GFCI breaker at the neutral bar. It appears the small coil in the Din Relay is enough to trigger the GFCI.

 

Thanks for everyones input!

 

E

[ELA]

ejh3,

Glad to hear it is working but confused by your last post.

 

Does the GFCI only trip when the Insteon device is sending or any time it was "connected correctly" and idle?

 

Are you saying you fixed the problem by connecting it incorrectly? From what you describe, with the device neutral direct to the neutral block ( as opposed to the neutral lug on the breaker itself) I would expect it to trip constantly due the to idle current from the device?

GFCI's will trip on 5-6ma or only about 1/2- 3/4 watts.

 

Din Rail on/off module lists its idle consumption at <1W .

 

If I understand correctly, and it is connected incorrectly, then you are likely on the very boarder line of tripping all the time and you may be revisiting nuisance tripping in the future.

[Teken]

ejh3,

Glad to hear it is working but confused by your last post.

 

Does the GFCI only trip when the Insteon device is sending or any time it was "connected correctly" and idle?

 

Are you saying you fixed the problem by connecting it incorrectly? From what you describe, with the device neutral direct to the neutral block ( as opposed to the neutral lug on the breaker itself) I would expect it to trip constantly due the to idle current from the device?

GFCI's will trip on 5-6ma or only about 1/2- 3/4 watts.

 

Din Rail on/off module lists its idle consumption at <1W .

 

If I understand correctly, and it is connected incorrectly, then you are likely on the very boarder line of tripping all the time and you may be revisiting nuisance tripping in the future.

 

ELA,

 

Would you please clarify the distinction you're trying to make here:

 

the device neutral direct to the neutral block ( as opposed to the neutral lug on the breaker itself)

 

Teken . . .

[ELA]

Hello Teken,

I searched for a picture to help:

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CFwQ9QEwBw

 

Any load wire must connect to the neutral terminal on the GFCI breaker itself as opposed to the same place that the breakers curled up neutral wire connects.

[apostolakisl]

I am not aware of "all kinds of things producing noise at the same freq. as Insteon").

 

Many electronic devices produce noise at the same frequency that insteon and x10 operate. This is the entire purpose of the noise filters that we so often have to buy. This is how x10 devices can turn on/off without any proper source of an x10 signal. Some transformers/ballasts are very noisy in that range, yet you don't see GFCI breakers popping when you plug a noisy fluorescent light in.

 

GFCI breakers would be going popping all the time if all it took was stuff happening in the 131khz area regardless of whether you have Insteon/x10 in your house at all.

[ELA]

Here is the proper quote:

 

It is well known that any electronic device can be upset by a high enough level of EMI ( noise at a certain amplitude, frequency and duration or repetition rate).

I am not aware of "all kinds of things producing noise at the same freq. as Insteon"). Certainly not at the amplitude that Insteon transmits. There are however many transmitters at widely different frequencies and power levels that have also been known to trip GFCI's, if positioned close enough to them

 

apostolakisl,

Would you please name a few of these many things, please include both frequency and amplitude values for reference.

Looking for what is the amplitude at the Insteon Frequency of ~131Khz.

 

There is a clear history of GFCI breakers nuisance tripping due to fluorescent lights ,tread mills, tools etc.

 

The specification is mostly common knowledge around these Insteon forums that the ~131Khz signal is ~3.2Vp-p into 5 ohms.

Now for comparison what is the amplitude from a very noisy fluorescent light at 131Khz?

 

Do you understand what it takes to trip a GFCI? I have done extensive diagnostic/test work on GFCI's for various projects including EMI stress testing over several years.

 

For example:

Insteon transmitter driving a light load = 3.2vp-p/5 ohms = 640 milli-amps p-p

What it takes to trip a GFCI = 5-6 milli-amps RMS (differential current) or 14ma p-p

 

Now take a look at how much voltage would one need to drive a 5ma current into a 5 ohm load. = .005 * 5 = .025V RMS

 

More than 25mv ( or 71mv p-p) could easily be produced by many noisy devices but when compared to an Insteon signal they pale.

 

It does get much more complicated but this is just meant to present an order of magnitude comparison.

Data vs. conjecture.

 

 

Edited 12/14/13 as apostolakisl was kind enough to point out my example did not include the units to provide a more accurate comparison.

[apostolakisl]

Here is the proper quote:

 

It is well known that any electronic device can be upset by a high enough level of EMI ( noise at a certain amplitude, frequency and duration or repetition rate).

I am not aware of "all kinds of things producing noise at the same freq. as Insteon"). Certainly not at the amplitude that Insteon transmits. There are however many transmitters at widely different frequencies and power levels that have also been known to trip GFCI's, if positioned close enough to them

 

 

 

There is a clear history of GFCI breakers nuisance tripping due to fluorescent lights ,tread mills, tools etc.

 

 

I do believe that your statement makes point that "all kinds of things make noise". As per your generalization, all kinds of other things apparently do make noise ("fluorescent lights ,tread mills, tools, etc."). Enough noise, in fact, per you, to pop some GFCI's. And enough amplitude to bury the Insteon 3.2vpp message per the fact that that is just a fact. Fortunately i don't own any of those "well known" gfci's. I suppose these would not be very good gfci's since these things would not put a differential current across the neutral/hot differential coil. Some of those things aren't even grounded so there wouldn't even be a path for a ground fault. A poorly designed gfci controller would be to blame if noise on the power line caused it to erroneously open the circuit. No ground fault actually occurs and the differential coil that compares the hot/neutral could not actually read a potential if there is no actual ground fault. The differential coil is a very simple thing that works on a very simple principle and I don't see that it would be possible to "trick" it. If current of any amplitude and any frequency is matched on both sides (which is the only possibility if no ground fault exists), then no potential can be made on the coil. If an insteon device is causing a GFCI to pop, then, as you mentioned, many other things would as well, and that would be a good brand of gfci to avoid. Since all GFCI's don't pop under the same circumstance, then it follows that it must be a poorly designed gfci controller activating the solenoid in the absence of a ground fault.

 

But in short, if the only thing you have in your house that pops the gfci mistakenly is an x10 device, or an Insteon device, I would be inclined to blame the x10 or Insteon device as actually having a ground fault. But maybe your house just doesn't have any of the things you listed that also could erroneously pop gfci's.

 

I would also ask that **-hole statements like "do you even know how a GFCI works" should be left at home.

[ELA]

Some of those things aren't even grounded so there wouldn't even be a path for a ground fault.

 

I would also ask that **-hole statements like "do you even know how a GFCI works" should be left at home.

 

Proof you are not aware and contributes nothing to anyones better understanding.

[apostolakisl]

Some of those things aren't even grounded so there wouldn't even be a path for a ground fault.

 

I would also ask that **-hole statements like "do you even know how a GFCI works" should be left at home.

 

Proof you are not aware and contributes nothing to anyones better understanding.

 

 

I bow down to you ohh enlightened one. Perhaps you need to start your own website where only you answer the questions.

[apostolakisl]

And yes, if no current flows to ground, then by definition there is no ground fault. But a device that has no conductive surface on it and isn't grounded via the electrical plug, has no path to ground fault no matter how screwed up it is.

[ELA]

 

statements like "do you even know how a GFCI works" should be left at home.

 

To be clear those are words you chose and not how I phrased the question.

 

 

I apologize to ejh3 and the community for my part in taking this post to a place it did not need to go.

[apostolakisl]

For example:

Insteon transmitter driving a light load = 3.2v/5 ohms = 640 milli-amps

What it takes to trip a GFCI = 5-6 milli-amps (differential current)

 

 

 

The equation is

 

Vrms = IR, not Vpp = IR

 

Vrms for 3.2Vpp is more like 1.14, so current would be .228 amp

 

But more to the point. You seem to be be saying that the .228 amps (or .640) would be a differential current. That would mean that all GFCI's would rightfully trip when an Insteon device is plugged in. But we know that not to be the case.

 

Insteon devices do not use the ground lead to complete their circuits. They function strictly off of hot/neutral. So why would you believe that the Insteon signal would not be completing the signal circuit to the neutral and thus no differential? We know that the device does not complete a circuit to ground since Insteon devices function normally with no ground connected (or alternative path to ground). There must therefore be 2 other options:

 

1) The circuit is completed using Neutral (likely)

2) The circuit is not completed, the device holds a static charge.

 

I think it is highly unlikely that the device is holding a static charge, but have no testing to prove that, except that Insteon devices almost always don't trip a GFCI.

 

So it leaves only that the circuit is completed to neutral. Thus a GFCI that is properly designed and functioning, should not pop since there is no differential across the hot/neutral. The only explanation is that the GFCI circuitry is either malfunctioning or poorly designed such that an Insteon signal is falsely energizing the solenoid via a mechanism other than a differential current. A GFCI designer may not have considered that there will be activity at anything other than 60hz and the activation circuitry may not be properly designed to not falsely activate on current at other frequencies even if it is not ground faulted. Since noise at all kinds of frequencies exist in homes today, that would be a poor design.

 

Either that or the Insteon device in question actually has a ground fault.

 

My suggestion to the OP would be

1) Buy a GFCI tester and test all of the GFCI's in the house. .. they are known to fail and stick in the non-popped position. This is just a general good idea

2) Plug the Insteon device into several of the GFCI's that have been tested. Do they all pop?

3) Plug other Insteon devices into the same popping GFCI's. Do they pop?

 

If only the one Insteon device pops multiple GFCI's, then I suspect an actual ground fault

If multiple Insteon devices pop only the one GFCI, I suspect a bad GFCI either in design or in current operational condition.

If multiple Insteon devices pop multiple GFCI's, are they all the same brand/vintage. If yes, suspect a design flaw in that model and would suggest buying a single new one and testing it. If all is well go ahead and replace all that malfunction.

[Teken]

Well this turned ugly fast.

 

Teken . . .

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[ejh3]

My thought was simply that the resistance in the coil within the Din Relay is enough for the gfi breaker to think it is a short to ground (I think it's 5ma). The way I wired it isn't necessarily unsafe, it still protects the receptacles down the line, it just doesn't protect the Din relay.

[ejh3]

Also, I did in fact test all receptacles powered by the gfi breaker with a gfi tester and they all trip it.

[gatchel]

Also, I did in fact test all receptacles powered by the gfi breaker with a gfi tester and they all trip it.

 

Are you saying that the GFI breaker trips after you moved the circuit neutral wire from the breaker to the neutral bus bar?

[ejh3]

Gat helm that is correct. It's instantaneous.

[gatchel]

Gat helm that is correct. It's instantaneous.

 

Interesting. Are you not concerned about grounded neutral protection?

Also, try plugging a load in to that circuit and see if it trips the GFCI on the load only.

 

 

Here is some good reading:

 

http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/ ... tation.pdf

[apostolakisl]

My thought was simply that the resistance in the coil within the Din Relay is enough for the gfi breaker to think it is a short to ground (I think it's 5ma). The way I wired it isn't necessarily unsafe, it still protects the receptacles down the line, it just doesn't protect the Din relay.

 

I don't know why resistance would simulate short to ground. After all, everything that you plug in to any receptacle has resistance, and all of your low current stuff has extremely high resistance.

 

Do I understand correctly that you have:

1) Hooked up the hot and neutral from your branch circuit to the normal locations on the GFCI breaker

2) That you have attached the GFCI's coiled white wire to the normal neutral bus in the breaker box

3) The instead of attaching the ground wire from the branch to the ground bar in the breaker, you have attached it to the same neutral bus slot as the wire in #2 above

 

So, #3 above would be the only thing you did differently than per normal installation, correct? And somehow that doesn't pop the GFCI, but attaching the ground to the normal ground bus does pop it.

 

Electrically, the only difference between proper wiring and what you have done, is the few inches of metal connecting the ground bus and neutral bus inside your breaker box.

 

Have you confirmed that it is the activation of the relay that is popping the GFCI and not the Insteon command? This can be checked by doing a query on the device without changing its state.

 

If a query fails to pop the GFCI, then it leaves all of the other electronics in the Insteon device as the problem (the circuitry that activates the relay in response to an Insteon command and the relay itself).

 

I think you have ruled out an actual ground fault since:

1) you checked the gfci breaker in its current wiring scheme and it popped

2) it doesn't pop with this same wiring scheme when you activate the Insteon device plugged into it.