Virtual Devices ?

[Ltek]

I saw a thread from 2009 (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2806) stating there would be virtual devices... where are they?

 

I'd like to create a virtual device to I can turn on/off Vacation mode folder

 

thanks.

[LeeG]

A Variable can be used to provide the logical switch. I don't think Virtual Devices have surfaced as an item in the near future. I'm sure UDI will correct this if it is wrong.

[Ltek]

Variables do not provide the same functionality.

 

UDI put that on the list in 2009... 4 years and still not implemented. Not the best indication of proper/timely follow-through.

[LeeG]

Have a great holiday season.

[oberkc]

I'd like to create a virtual device to I can turn on/off Vacation mode folder

 

Turning on and off a folder does not sound outside the realm of what can be done now. What device do you wish to use (tablet, cell phone, something else) so you wish to be able to control this virtual device? If you were to describe your intentions, perhaps someone could come up with a solution.

 

Perhaps I just don't understand the meaning of a "virtual device".

[Ltek]

Virtual Devices are a common analog in Home Automation - almost all robust HA apps I've used in the past 15 years has this concept.

 

In the app they act like a device, but not liked to a physical device... so they are on/off, some % level, etc... just like a physical device would have.

 

They are useful for linking to Scenes/Programs/Scripts via a UI - for example, if you are going on / returning from Vacation, etc.

They can also be a quick and easy way to holding values without needing to add the complexity of variables - they are much easier to set, use, etc.

They are also easier to represent when integrating with 3rd party (non-ISY) apps and devices.

 

I'm starting to see why a lot of people use ISY with other apps... which is not a good thing IMO.

[oberkc]

In the app they act like a device, but not liked to a physical device... so they are on/off, some % level, etc... just like a physical device would have.

 

And how is this different than using a variable, or another program, to respresent some "virtual" status?

 

They can also be a quick and easy way to holding values without needing to add the complexity of variables - they are much easier to set, use, etc.

 

They are also easier to represent when integrating with 3rd party (non-ISY) apps and devices.

 

So, you are not arguing for a new capability, but, rather, easier use and better integration with the rest of the world.

 

OK

[Ltek]

In the app they act like a device, but not liked to a physical device... so they are on/off, some % level, etc... just like a physical device would have.

 

And how is this different than using a variable, or another program, to respresent some "virtual" status?

 

They can also be a quick and easy way to holding values without needing to add the complexity of variables - they are much easier to set, use, etc.

 

They are also easier to represent when integrating with 3rd party (non-ISY) apps and devices.

 

So, you are not arguing for a new capability, but, rather, easier use and better integration with the rest of the world.

 

OK

 

It is the same and also very different...

 

Here's what I typed up for my email:

 

Virtual Devices are a common analog in Home Automation - almost all robust HA apps I've used in the past 15 years has this concept.

In the app they act like but are not linked to a physical device... so they are on/off, some % level, etc... just like a physical device would have.

Useful for linking to Scenes/Programs/Scripts via a UI - for example, if you are going on / returning from Vacation, etc.

Quick and easy way to hold values without needing to add the complexity of variables - they are much easier to set, use, see visually, etc.

They are also easier to represent when integrating with 3rd party (non-ISY) apps and devices

 

Tons of utility for even basic of users.

 

I'm surprised the ISY is 5-6 years old and several revisions in and still does not have this.

[oberkc]

As one who deals with requirements versus solutions for a living, it sounds to me as if you are pushing for a specific solution without defining your requirement. I will admit to being unfamiliar with the rest of the home automation world and programming, in general, and that your requirement may be self evident to those who have this familiarity, but I am having trouble understanding (but still curious) what it is that you are trying to achieve.

 

Is it a desire for a better human-machine interface to allow more intuitive and tailorable interface for control of your system from a web page on your PC...to display this virtual device from the admin panel? Do you want the ISY firmware to include the ability to create this configurable interface? Is it the ability to write apps that interface to the ISY? On what hardware do you want to display this virtual device? (Your mention of "apps" makes me think you are intending this for android or iOS tablets. )

 

I have no personal interest in controlling my lighting from the PC (or at least providing a wife/guest_friendly means to do so). Perhaps that is what I am missing here. My interfaces are all through tablets or actual insteon devices and I find barely reasonable (room for improvement, however) methods to create that user interface. I must admit, however, that I would definitely like the ability of an android tablet to act as a virtual keypad device, looking like a keypad, showing status for each button. So far, I have not found a solution for this. I do use android tablets and phones to control my system, however. My approach falls short of a "virtual" device in that it does NOT show status for scenes or devices. I have understood this as a limitation of android (multiple icons based on conditions) rather than a limitation of the ISY and don't believe having a virtual device within the ISY as a solution to this problem.

 

I appreciate your patience with me.

[Ltek]

oberkc,

I love that you are interested. I understand your logic. While I cannot spell out every use case, I actually did explain in my previous post the general use/concept. Here's one example I use myself in every system (~5 different ones used daily - not at the same time, usually - over the past 15 years)...

 

Simple and common case, and multiple uses for the same concept...

 

"house mode"... Vacation, Away, Home, Guests, etc. These can be a combination of lighting, security devices, Programs (aka Scenes in most of the HA world), etc.

- How do you enable or disable these modes?

- What if you don't want to need to be physically near your KPL (or don't use them like myself)?

- What if you want to be able to easily turn on/off via your Android/iOS device or PC... are you going to log into your Admin UI & edit a variable?

- What if a 3rd party solution (web UI, application, etc) needs an easy way to represent or track or set the mode? VirtDevice is dead simple, variable takes programming.

 

They can also be used to track states (just like variables do) but much simpler, and easily visual ways to do so. In Vera we have a Virtual Device that is actually just like a KPL... multiple buttons in one device. You can configure 'sets' to be used like radio buttons... this is VERY cool and useful for setting modes. I have seen NOTHING even close to this in ISY.

[PurdueGuy]

oberkc,

I love that you are interested. I understand your logic. While I cannot spell out every use case, I actually did explain in my previous post the general use/concept. Here's one example I use myself in every system (~5 different ones used daily - not at the same time, usually - over the past 15 years)...

 

Simple and common case, and multiple uses for the same concept...

 

"house mode"... Vacation, Away, Home, Guests, etc. These can be a combination of lighting, security devices, Programs (aka Scenes in most of the HA world), etc.

That's the great thing about ISY. Put anything program you want in a folder, a give that folder conditions. They can be something like:

if ((Home==0 & Vacation==1) or (Home ==1))

- How do you enable or disable these modes?

My "Home" variable is set by either:

- setting it via a program directly

- program runs by pressing a KPL button that turns off the house

- program runs by the alarm going into away mode

- program runs by unlocking a z-wave deadbolt via a PIN

My "Vacation" variable is set by a program.

- What if you don't want to need to be physically near your KPL (or don't use them like myself)?

I have a program that is exposed as a scene in Vera. Programs are also callable directly from an HTTP URL via the REST API.

- What if you want to be able to easily turn on/off via your Android/iOS device or PC... are you going to log into your Admin UI & edit a variable?

Create a program that sets the variable, and another that unsets it.

- What if a 3rd party solution (web UI, application, etc) needs an easy way to represent or track or set the mode? VirtDevice is dead simple, variable takes programming.

Variable are definitely exposed via the REST API, but I am not sure if they are exposed via SOAP, but I would think they are. Virtual devices actually make it harder. A UI/Mobile App developer needs to know about each type of device. Add a new type, and you need to add support for it. If it uses native ISY variables under the hood, they could update those, but that's doing it somewhat blind.

They can also be used to track states (just like variables do) but much simpler, and easily visual ways to do so. In Vera we have a Virtual Device that is actually just like a KPL... multiple buttons in one device. You can configure 'sets' to be used like radio buttons... this is VERY cool and useful for setting modes. I have seen NOTHING even close to this in ISY.

I can see basic virtual devices for setting native ISY variables (you could do a home/away/vacation mode easily), but I personally wouldn't want virtual devices to contain their own variables. That could end up being a spaghetti mess that developers have a hard time developing.

[oberkc]

Yes, you did explain your use cases. The problem that I am having is that I am (or would be were I interested) able to do every example you cite, without virtual devices, so I don't see the need for having another device (real or imagined) in my ISY admin panel.

 

How do you enable or disable these modes?

 

I can do this via an actual insteon device or via my android phone, or via ipad. If I have internet connection, I can do this anywhere in the world. Doing so using iOS would be equally possible.

 

What if you don't want to need to be physically near your KPL (or don't use them like myself)?

 

I have two android tablets throughout my house and can control lighting this way, or via android phone. This can be done via iOS devices, as well. I have a remotelinc at a couple of strategic places, as well. My two tablets are also used for TV remote control. I can integrate this with my insteon system as well. It takes additional hardware, but I don't believe having a virtual device would make this any easier from a hardware standpoint.

 

What if you want to be able to easily turn on/off via your Android/iOS device or PC... are you going to log into your Admin UI & edit a variable?

 

No, of course not. I use a combination of tasker and mobilinc for this. I don't use the admin UI for anything except MANAGING my insteon system. I often go months without opening the admin panel. But I can easily turn on or off anything insteon via android/iOS device. I admit that doing so via PC is not something that has interested me, so I have not much looked into the options there.

 

What if a 3rd party solution (web UI, application, etc) needs an easy way to represent or track or set the mode? VirtDevice is dead simple, variable takes programming.

 

OK, I will take your word for this. I have no idea whether having a virtual device makes it easier to create apps. Of the two apps I have seen, they can display status for existing devices, so I am happy to assume that it would be no different than showing status of a virtual device. I can use tasker/mobilinc to create home-screen widgets that can do anything that insteon can control. Using mobilinc directly, one can see status of any device and control any scene.

 

The only complaint I have with this method is inability to create a specific user interface that I would like, which would mostly be an emulation of a keypad. Having a virtual device may help make this a reality, but only if controlling it remotely would result in behavior like a direct (manual) control of a real device.

[Ltek]

Guys,

I admire your enthusiasm for ISY but you both actually used non-ISY applications and/or a 3rd party devices (Vera) as a stop-gap / work-around for something that simply should already exist in ISY - and does in any other app/device priced in the range of the ISY. It should simply be there. Just because you don't personally see utility in having it or have developed complex or costly workarounds (buying MobiLinc or Vera or XYZ) does not mean that there is not a lot of value for users.

 

If 70-80% of HA application/devices have a feature then there is a large user demand or adoption for that feature. If this user base is filled with either super-basic users and/or highly advanced coders then maybe there is not the need... but the mid-level power users, which frequent the Homeseer, Elves, etc of the world find this feature valuable.

 

btw, this is only 1 of many gaps I see - others are much more important too. I emailed Michel, I hope he takes it as constructive and not that I dislike ISY. I think ISY is pretty good but in its current state I cannot use it as central to my system and I will need to look at other devices or move back to a PC app.

[oberkc]

I admire your enthusiasm for ISY but you both actually used non-ISY applications and/or a 3rd party devices (Vera) as a stop-gap / work-around for something that simply should already exist in ISY - and does in any other app/device priced in the range of the ISY.

 

Yes, I am pretty enthusiastic about the ISY.

 

I don't consider using apps to be a stop-gap or workaround. I DO consider logging on to a web page, whether via a PC or mobile device, (to the admin panel) to remotely control my system to be unnecessarily complex. I consider control right on the home page of my mobile device (via widget or icon) to be the superior approach. I don't believe adding a virtual device, alone, allows for this.

 

What other apps/devices allow the capability of the ISY (without relying on a PC to execute programs and events) that have the virtual device capability? I would love to check this out.

 

It should simply be there.

 

So you have said. I admire the enthusiasm you hold for such an opinion. Based on the response given by UDI to your original post, it appeared they shared your opinion. I wonder if this has changed in the intervening years.

 

Just because you don't personally see utility in having it or have developed complex or costly workarounds (buying MobiLinc or Vera or XYZ) does not mean that there is not a lot of value for users.

 

Clearly you perceive it has value. Yes, there may be others who have similar perceptions.

 

Yes, mobilinc is an additional cost. Is it more complex than what I perceive you are suggesting?...perhaps in setup, but not so in operation. Have you tried the ISY dashboard?"

 

Thank you for your time and explanation. I truly did not understand

[PurdueGuy]

Guys,

I admire your enthusiasm for ISY but you both actually used non-ISY applications and/or a 3rd party devices (Vera) as a stop-gap / work-around for something that simply should already exist in ISY - and does in any other app/device priced in the range of the ISY. It should simply be there. Just because you don't personally see utility in having it or have developed complex or costly workarounds (buying MobiLinc or Vera or XYZ) does not mean that there is not a lot of value for users.

 

If 70-80% of HA application/devices have a feature then there is a large user demand or adoption for that feature. If this user base is filled with either super-basic users and/or highly advanced coders then maybe there is not the need... but the mid-level power users, which frequent the Homeseer, Elves, etc of the world find this feature valuable.

 

btw, this is only 1 of many gaps I see - others are much more important too. I emailed Michel, I hope he takes it as constructive and not that I dislike ISY. I think ISY is pretty good but in its current state I cannot use it as central to my system and I will need to look at other devices or move back to a PC app.

You didn't read my post. I actually agreed with you for some things.

 

And for the record, I do NOT use Vera as an intermediate for variables/virtual devices that the ISY lacks. Vera is simply becoming a passthrough for the mobile apps that I like and use (HomeWave and AutHomationHD).

 

Many of the plugins developed for Vera are to overcome lack of conditional logic (Combination Switch, Vacation Ghost, Smart Switch, Countdown Timer). I never used PLEG since I would write my own LUUP conditions, so I can't comment on that.

 

As for abstracting some things away, the plugins can help (such as the SQBlaster plugin), but whether I put the same HEX string in a Vera scene or an ISY network resource, it's identical...6 of one, half-dozen of the other.

 

And I am enthusiastic about ISY not just because of conditional variables, but also support and updates. 2 years ago Vera was great. Now I have outstanding Vera bug reports and trouble tickets...no resolution, no movement.

 

Z-Wave with ISY is still beta, but I fully expect it to mature and be just as good as Insteon on ISY.

[Ltek]

@PurdueGuy

I'm with you, I'm tired of Vera's lack of conditionals. I dug into PLEG - it is very powerful and I have some complex security/occupancy based upon it but there are quirks I have spent hours working out - and frankly tired of it.

 

Here's what we need: Vera hardware + ISY's conditional logic and general layout / methodology + and Vera's plugins/apps (AuthomationHD, dataMine, etc)

 

I'll ping you offline and share some of my collected & documented thoughts on ISY.

 

 

@oberkc

I already listed two apps that have this and there are about 6-7 more a quick web search would provide you. If you were a power user and/or used other HA apps, or have mufti-faceted HA solutions, this would be pretty obvious.

 

Buying devices or apps to fill a very basic gap like this is not desirable not is a 'solution' - for more complex things, like a Mobile UI, sure maybe but I don't like Mobilinc for a few reasons - and something this simple should not require a $20 "Fix" anyway.

 

Bottom line - dead simple use case...

using an ISY 'native method' ... try to turn on Vacation mode (to enable your Folder conditions) using ONLY a push of ONE BUTTON. Lets say, on a web page from any device and where in the world -- that SUPER SIMPLE thing is not possible.

 

admin & dashboard requires Java... mobile devices do not use Java and I don'w want to install Java on every computer I might use. AND there is still no 'one button' way even with the Java apps.

 

... this is simple ON / OFF ... that is all.

 

I'm moving off this topic for now at least. I have too much to do.

[oberkc]

I already listed two apps that have this and there are about 6-7 more a quick web search would provide you.

 

Yes, you listed "apps" but I asked about those that did not require a computer running 24/7 to operate.

 

I already listed two apps that have this and there are about 6-7 more a quick web search would provide you.

 

If you were a power user and/or used other HA apps, or have mufti-faceted HA solutions, this would be pretty obvious.

 

Ah! So those who disagree are simply not sophisticated "power users". OK.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Ltek,

 

Here's what we need: Vera hardware + ISY's conditional logic and general layout / methodology + and Vera's plugins/apps (AuthomationHD, dataMine, etc)

A little bit offensive. Analogy: I want to marry someone with your head but not with your body.

 

Bottom line - dead simple use case...

using an ISY 'native method' ... try to turn on Vacation mode (to enable your Folder conditions) using ONLY a push of ONE BUTTON. Lets say, on a web page from any device and where in the world -- that SUPER SIMPLE thing is not possible.

 

admin & dashboard requires Java... mobile devices do not use Java and I don'w want to install Java on every computer I might use. AND there is still no 'one button' way even with the Java apps.

 

... this is simple ON / OFF ... that is all.

 

I'm moving off this topic for now at least. I have too much to do.

Umm, Ltek, have you even looked at ISY's out of the box (i.e. native/free) HTML/AJAX UI? It's a little disconcerting to note that not enough research has been done before making assertions that are simply not true. For your reference:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index ... ser_Screen ... under Programs.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ISYhbsh01]

"Buying devices or apps to fill a very basic gap like this is not desirable not is a 'solution' - for more complex things, like a Mobile UI, sure maybe but I don't like Mobilinc for a few reasons - and something this simple should not require a $20 "Fix" anyway."

 

 

So please help me understand, what is the problem, is it that it's a 3rd party that developed an app for iphone & android and not UDI? If UDI would have developed the apps themselves & would have charged $20 more for the ISY in the first place, then it would not have been considered a "Fix"?...

 

 

 

"Bottom line - dead simple use case...

using an ISY 'native method' ... try to turn on Vacation mode (to enable your Folder conditions) using ONLY a push of ONE BUTTON. Lets say, on a web page from any device and where in the world -- that SUPER SIMPLE thing is not possible."

 

 

That's very much possible and hundreds of people are doing this every day. I for example have a program called "away for 24 hours". I have a couple of folders and programs with conditions based on whether the away program is true or false & all I need to do is click on the "run then" to activate it and click on "run else" to deactivate it. Variables can also be used to accomplish that, but I set it up this way before variables were added to the ISY. This can bee done from any device with a web browser.

 

 

"admin & dashboard requires Java... mobile devices do not use Java and I don'w want to install Java on every computer I might use. AND there is still no 'one button' way even with the Java apps.

 

... this is simple ON / OFF ... that is all."

 

 

Admin console indeed requires java, I am not sure about the dashboard, but the standard web page from where you can control all the devices & programs, "simple ON / OFF" as you call it, does not require java and as I said can be done from any device with a web browser. Most people though would prefer an app like mobilinc rather than using the web browser on a mobile device, for the same reason that there are thousands of apps available for many things which can also be done from the mobile web browser.

 

 

"I'm moving off this topic for now at least. I have too much to do."

 

 

With all due respect, I get the impression that you have a minimal knowledge of the ins and outs of the ISY and how it works. On top of that, it seems that you are here searching for a problem not a solution, looking for questions and not for the answers.

 

I might be wrong with my assessment and if so I beg your pardon in advance.

 

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

[Ltek]

Hi Ltek,

 

Here's what we need: Vera hardware + ISY's conditional logic and general layout / methodology + and Vera's plugins/apps (AuthomationHD, dataMine, etc)

A little bit offensive. Analogy: I want to marry someone with your head but not with your body.

This was directed at PurdueGuy who uses Vera + ISY... just like I do. And your analogy is pretty accurate in this case. This is a fact of life... and it is normal. none of this makes UDI or ISY 'bad'. there is always room for improvement in any product and all products are better at some things then their competition, and vice versa.

 

If ISY is perfect for 'you', fantastic. If ISY or any product is perfect (in comparison to competition) for most people, like iPhone in smartphone market - for a long time it had a commanding market share.

 

Bottom line - dead simple use case...

using an ISY 'native method' ... try to turn on Vacation mode (to enable your Folder conditions) using ONLY a push of ONE BUTTON. Lets say, on a web page from any device and where in the world -- that SUPER SIMPLE thing is not possible.

 

admin & dashboard requires Java... mobile devices do not use Java and I don'w want to install Java on every computer I might use. AND there is still no 'one button' way even with the Java apps.

 

... this is simple ON / OFF ... that is all.

 

Umm, Ltek, have you even looked at ISY's out of the box (i.e. native/free) HTML/AJAX UI? It's a little disconcerting to note that not enough research has been done before making assertions that are simply not true. For your reference:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index ... ser_Screen ... under Programs.

 

I looked at the HTML/AJAX UI... no admin is possible, only end-user functions. Clicking on Admin Console opens Java run time - thus, not mobile compatible. PC era is over, mobile devices (smartphone, tablet) now rule and as the market is showing, these devices easily out sell PCs.

 

Take a look at the Maraschino Project (http://www.maraschinoproject.com). It is a module style architecture. I'd use this as an example of what would bring the ISY UI into a modern UI. Even if UDI did not do it all themselves but provided the framework, I'm sure others - including myself - would write modules for it.

 

IDC device sales estimates for 2013...

tablets ~ 227M

PC/laptops ~310M

smartphone ~1B

2013 Q4 tablets outsold desktop and laptop PCs combined.

 

IDC predicts:

1- 87% Of ALL Connected Devices Sales By 2017 Will Be Tablets And Smartphones

2- tablet sales ALONE will surpass PCs on an annual basis by 2015, maybe in 2014.

 

Writing is on the wall... why not convert to Java UI to a universal, HTML5, and be done with it? Support 1 interface across all platforms. This also opens up tons of opportunities for users to write modules for it. It is clear by the projects on the forum, users are not content with the native UI and are trying to roll-their-own.

 

 

 

"Buying devices or apps to fill a very basic gap like this is not desirable not is a 'solution' - for more complex things, like a Mobile UI, sure maybe but I don't like Mobilinc for a few reasons - and something this simple should not require a $20 "Fix" anyway."

 

 

So please help me understand, what is the problem, is it that it's a 3rd party that developed an app for iphone & android and not UDI? If UDI would have developed the apps themselves & would have charged $20 more for the ISY in the first place, then it would not have been considered a "Fix"?...

 

you misunderstand... I'm saying there is nothing wrong with 3rd party mobile apps... filing small 'gaps' in core ISY code/functionality is not "fixed" by purchasing a $20 full mobile app.

 

Imagine your bicycle tire is flat. Will it still roll, yes kinda. Will it be difficult and tedious, yes definitely. Is it easy or a good leave it in that condition, definitely not.

so you ask the bike store to fill it with air - but they, instead of simply filling the tube with air, tell you to buy a whole new tire for $20. You explain all it needs is air, but they tell you that the only fix is to buy something, they will provide no air.

 

 

"Bottom line - dead simple use case...

using an ISY 'native method' ... try to turn on Vacation mode (to enable your Folder conditions) using ONLY a push of ONE BUTTON. Lets say, on a web page from any device and where in the world -- that SUPER SIMPLE thing is not possible."

 

 

That's very much possible and hundreds of people are doing this every day. I for example have a program called "away for 24 hours". I have a couple of folders and programs with conditions based on whether the away program is true or false & all I need to do is click on the "run then" to activate it and click on "run else" to deactivate it. Variables can also be used to accomplish that, but I set it up this way before variables were added to the ISY. This can bee done from any device with a web browser.

 

 

"admin & dashboard requires Java... mobile devices do not use Java and I don'w want to install Java on every computer I might use. AND there is still no 'one button' way even with the Java apps.

 

... this is simple ON / OFF ... that is all."

 

 

Admin console indeed requires java, I am not sure about the dashboard, but the standard web page from where you can control all the devices & programs, "simple ON / OFF" as you call it, does not require java and as I said can be done from any device with a web browser. Most people though would prefer an app like mobilinc rather than using the web browser on a mobile device, for the same reason that there are thousands of apps available for many things which can also be done from the mobile web browser.

 

While it is true I could use the native web UI to navigate to the Program and use Run Then & Run Else - it does not solve the problem

The issue is there is no easy & user-friendly way to accomplish this. While many may be content with one-off ways to do things and may never need anyone but themselves to use it... for myself, and my customers, this is not the case. We need to have non-technical user-friendly ways to do things that anyone in the family/guests/etc can use. This means we cannot put up instructions on how to navigate 3 levels and push some obscure button called "Run Else"

 

UI needs to be simple like...

Vacation mode ON / OFF

Secure mode ON / OFF

Stay mode ON / OFF

 

... this only one of the simple, but valuable, uses for Virtual Devices. AND this would translate directly into being usable in 3rd party Mobile apps. You could create a control panel for home guests, family, etc. It seems that maybe no one here does anything this complete & polished with but it is just the way I work and do things - both for myself and as a consultant.

 

... MOST home automation controllers include Virtual Devices to provide this, and other, functionality.

 

 

With all due respect, I get the impression that you have a minimal knowledge of the ins and outs of the ISY and how it works. On top of that, it seems that you are here searching for a problem not a solution, looking for questions and not for the answers.

 

I might be wrong with my assessment and if so I beg your pardon in advance.

 

never apologize for your opinion or your interpretation - everyone looks at things and uses differently. I hope everyone on this thread realizes this is not an attack on ISY or the people here. I see a ton of potential for my personal use and consulting business but I'm finding too many roadblocks right now to make it possible. Most (not the web UI thing) are small features that can be added to ISY's core while making a big difference in use cases, usage, and functionality/flexibility in ISY. Virtual Devices is only 1 of several things I see gaps in. Some look like they may be addressed in v5, others seems like they are not even on the roadmap - this is the concern.