Incorrect labeling of Micro Module Device Option?

[chago2013]

I have two ON/OFF Micro Modules (MMs), each controlling a fan in a different location of the house. Each is connected to a single toggle switch that is just an ON/OFF. There are no other connections or complications (no 3-way, etc). The MMs work as advertised, all behavior is as expected, status reports update correctly in the ISY, there are no delays or apparent communications issues, et al.

 

However, getting the MMs properly configured with the ISY was a challenge and I'm wondering if some of the Device Options in the pop-up window are mislabeled.

 

Referring to the image I attached to this post, please correct me if I'm wrong, but in a scenario like mine, shouldn't the only checked checkbox be "Latching", with the other two ("Single Line", "Act as 3Way") remaining unchecked? In my case, the only way I could get both MMs working was by checking "Act as 3Way" and leaving the other two unchecked.

 

Is this a bug or mislabeling? Or is my understanding incorrect?

 

Thanks!

[chago2013]

I should add that with the configuration indicated above, the behavior is as indicated in the first paragraph of the section titled "3-Way Toggle Mode (Latching Switches Only, Default)" on page 8 of the MM manual. This is incorrect, as with the "Act as 3Way" option checked, as I have it, it should behave as described in the second paragraph.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi chago2013,

 

It's quite possible as we basically took those out of the documentation. Perhaps the labeling is a little misleading: When you have something checked, then the first statement applies. When something is unchecked, then the statement in RED applies.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[chago2013]

Thanks for the response, Michel.

 

The potential mislabeling I'm referring to would be a little more than what you said. I'm talking about the possibility that what is being displayed as "Act as 3Way" may actually be the setting for "Latching".

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi chago2013,

 

Would you please open Event Viewer, change the level to 3, and then click on the Set Options button? Once that's done, please post back.

 

I checked here and basically what's checked is what is expected based on the API docs.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[chago2013]

Thanks again, Michel. Here's the event listing. I cleared out the display before pressing the "Query" button on the dialog.

 

Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:29 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 1F D9 29 0F 1F 06
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:29 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 1F.D9.29 0F 1F 06 06          GOF    (06)
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:29 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 1F.D9.29 25.28.9A 2B 1F 04    GOF    (04)
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:29 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 1F.D9.29-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:30 AM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 1F D9 29 0F 1F 00
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:30 AM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 1F.D9.29 0F 1F 00 06          GOF    (FLAGS)
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:30 AM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 1F.D9.29 25.28.9A 2B 1F 30    GOF    (30)
Mon 12/23/2013 07:51:30 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 1F.D9.29-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi chago2013,

 

The response is 0x1F = 0001 1111.

 

First bit starts from the right:

If the first bit is 1, then: Dual Line (correct)

If the second bit is 1, then: Latching (correct)

If the third bit is is 1, then: Not 3 Way (incorrect)

 

So, you are indeed correct: the last item should be reversed. This said, does this help you? i.e. you system is:

Momentary, Dual line, and NOT 3 Way

 

I am so very sorry for the inconvenience.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[chago2013]

Thanks for the detailed info. It's good to know how it works behind the scenes... pun intended...

 

I understand my set up to be as follows:

 

Latching

NOT 3 Way

I don't really understand Single vs Dual line, so I can't say anything about that. But if I had to guess, I'd say it's Single line.

 

As I described in the original post, mine is a very simple set up. To a single, on/off switch controlling a fan's supply of electric power (again, no speed, light fixture, etc, control), I added a Micro Module to support the same thing, plus allow remote control.

 

I'm guessing the ISY is reading these options incorrectly, or displaying them incorrectly, or the technical documentation for the MM is wrong, or there has been a firmware change that changes the way the options are read out. I can tell you there is a difference between what I get from the ISY and what I get from Houselinc for the same Micro Module. However, I believe Houselinc is correct in how it displays the settings, based on how module behavior matches the reported options. With the ISY, module behavior doesn't match the reported options, so I (and others, I assume) get confused and think there is something wrong with the module.

[Michel Kohanim]

Thank you chago2013,

 

Can you please let me know what HouseLinc reads? From what I gather from your post, you believe that the only difference would be in dual vs. single line.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[chago2013]

As I indicated, I don't know anything about Dual vs Single Line and haven't played with the setting in the ISY.

 

I used a brand new module to test ISY vs HouseLinc to display settings. I made changes in HL and queried from ISY to report what the latter sees. I did not try making changes in ISY and querying from HL.

 

Switch Type

HL: Latching = ON, 3 Way = OFF; ISY: Latching = OFF, Single = OFF, 3 Way = ON

HL: Latching = ON, 3 Way = ON; ISY: Latching = OFF, Single = OFF, 3 Way = OFF

HL: Single Momentary = ON, 3 Way = Checkbox Auto Disabled by HL; ISY: Latching = ON, Single = OFF, 3 Way = ON

HL: Dual Momentary = ON, 3 Way = Checkbox Auto Disabled by HL; ISY: Latching = ON, Single = ON, 3 Way = ON

 

Other

HL: Program Lock = ON; ISY: Program Lock = ON

HL: LED Brightness = OFF; ISY: No LED = ON

HL: LED Brightness = 50%; ISY: No LED = OFF

HL: LED on TX = ON; ISY LED on TX = ON

HL: Error Blink = ON; ISY: Not Supported

HL: Beep = ON; ISY: Beep = ON

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi chago2013,

 

Thanks so very much for the details. Indeed appreciated.

 

I tested again and looked at their API documentation and I must say that I think in this case either HL is wrong or the API docs are wrong. As I mentioned in the previous post, those bits are set properly except for Single vs. Dual.

 

So, the question is: should we use what HL says or what the API docs say?

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[chago2013]

Not being familiar with the API and the firmware, I'm not sure I can answer that. The only documentation I've read is the manual, which describes how the device behaves under certain settings.

 

What will be done, if anything, will of course be an internal decision of yours. But my vote as a consumer would be for whatever makes the device's behavior consistent with what the user manual says so customers are not confused. For example, if the manual on page 8 says,

 

Normally, a latching switch reads the switch’s up position as on and down position as off. For example, if you turn Micro module on from the latching switch and off from another controller, the switch is still in the up (on) position; turning Micro module back on from the switch would require you to tap the switch down, then up again. The 3-way toggle mode overrides this sense feature, so in that same scenario—turning Micro module on at the switch and off from another controller, so switch is in up (on) position—you could then turn Micro module on at the switch by tapping it down. If you are installing Micro module behind a single or dual momentary switch, 3-way toggle mode is ignored. If desired, you can disable (or re-enable) 3-way toggle mode by following these instructions...

 

etc, etc, that's the behavior I'd expect to see. If re-labeling things is required to match this, then so it is. Otherwise, there is a lot of confusion and a lot of hassle, and a lot of returned, but good, micro modules, and an overall disappointment with Insteon which cannot possibly be good for business.

 

I hope something can be done. Regardless, thanks a million for your time and attention, particularly during these busy holidays.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi chago2013,

 

Thanks so very much for the details. Before we do any more labeling, we will have to talk to SmartHome and make sure their API documentation is accurate.

 

If you don't mind, please send the screenshots of ISY/HL in addition to Event Viewer/Level 3 for the following two scenarios to support@universal-devices.com.

HL: Latching = ON, 3 Way = OFF; ISY: Latching = OFF, Single = OFF, 3 Way = ON

HL: Latching = ON, 3 Way = ON; ISY: Latching = OFF, Single = OFF, 3 Way = OFF

 

Thanks again and with kind regards,

Michel

[peterd]

Michel -

 

I would have pulled out all my hair had I not found this thread!

 

The behavior of the "3-way" checkbox is definitely reversed. I conducted "black box" testing (observing behavior only - no reference to API docs, ISY logs, etc.) using a Micro On-Off module and a switch. All I had to go on was the Smarthome product documentation http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2443-x22.pdf describing how the 3-way mode is expected to work.

 

I would ask that you please hook up a Micro module (On-Off or Dimmer) to a toggle switch and test it against the Owner's Manual. Adherence to the API docs is moot if checking the box does the opposite of what the user expects based on the user documentation.

 

Thanks in advance,

Peter

[m6bigdog]

Michel -

 

I would have pulled out all my hair had I not found this thread!

 

The behavior of the "3-way" checkbox is definitely reversed. I conducted "black box" testing (observing behavior only - ..............

Thanks in advance,

Peter

 

Peter,

I agree however I have little hair to take action on!!

 

Another post you may want to review:

Subject: Inteon Micro Module Dimmer - 2442-222 Device Options window

Date: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:43 am

URL: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13847

 

I discovered the best and easiest method to confirm the modules true switch functions is with the modules "Set Button".

Identify Switch Type:

Before you install Micro module behind a switch, you must determine which switch operation mode applies to your switch—latching, single momentary or dual momentary—as each is wired differently:

• Latching (default mode): Switch has no central position. It can be tapped on both the top and bottom and remains in that state once released.

• Single momentary: Switch can only be tapped in one location. It returns to central position once released.

• Dual momentary: Switch can be tapped on both the top and bottom. It returns to central position once released.

 

Also, reference the screen shot from the Device Options window on My ISY: firmware: OADR v 4.1.17, UI: v4.1.2.

Note: the 3-way check box description different than your screen shot!!

 

 

 

I have 2 Micro Module Dimmers installed in Motion Sensor circuits configured with "Latching", "Single Line" & "High always On; Low always Off" functions set yet the only box checked is "High always On; Low always Off".

 

 

My troubleshooting yields: (this info was forwarded to Michel)

"Latching: (Off) Momentary" - check box function reversed.

"Single Line: (Off) Dual-Line" - check box function reversed.

"Line High always On; Line Low always Off: (Off) Acts As 3-way" - check box function correct.

 

The "Acts as 3-way" function can be tested with programming in the ISY controller or a linked switch to check the reversing of the module's sensor Line(s) High/Low & Module On/Off function.

 

Lets not discuss how long it took for me to get the first motion sensor circuit working given 2 of the 3 Device Option switch check box functional descriptions are reversed .

 

Having fun Now,

Rod...