Why buy ELK (or other security system)? Can't ISY do it all

[ccclapp]

I am looking at ELK and other security systems and come away wondering why buy a security system: Cant we do all/most with just an ISY?

 

Does any of this need to be more complicated than installing insteon, Zwave or wired contacts, motions, cameras, contact closures, sirens, etc controlled by ISY, battery backup and Mobilinc, and then setting up programs similar to how one would do the same in ELK, etc for Home, Away, etc, etc, etc.?

 

Another aspect of my questions relates to the fact that ELK, Honeywell Total Connect security and others, duplicate much of what we will do via the ISY, e.g. Lighting, T-Stats, Cameras, Locks, remote control, etc. It seems there is much more redundancy then added capability from a security system.

 

Here are are areas I imagine a dedicated/integrated security system may have added functionality and conceptually how I would address it with an ISY:

 

-- Alarm Monitoring: Possibly ISY cannot give the required notifications to monitoring companies. However, it can send email/text to multiple parties specifying "faults" via programs. Possibly some independent monitoring companies will accept ISY notifications. Possibly there is a phone/cellular dialed that can be configured for telephone alerts.

 

-- Power Backup: Use of APS to run ISY and modem will enable ISY communications if power is lost/cut.

 

-- Power Failure Notifications: Via ISY or monitored APS if power is lost/cut

 

-- Cellular Backup: In the event the cable/DSL internet line is cut. I dont know if its a big deal to set up a backup cellular internet connection on a network??

 

--Other???

 

I expect I am over simplifying, but what am I missing?

 

Thanks

[Xathros]

In my opinion, Insteon is not reliable enough to be used for security. That takes a real system like Elk with supervised sensors, tamper detection, battery backup etc. The ISY is a major value add to a system like Elk but not a replacement.

 

-Xathros

[gatchel]

I would never use anything other than "security devices" on a security system. Using I/OLinc's and other powerline based devices or even battery operated devices that aren't supervised can be defeated by simply pulling your meter for the most part.

 

With a security panel you get better reliability, a central back up for power, and many other things that are needed.

[elvisimprsntr]

I mean no disrespect to UDI, but the ISY does not have a watch dog timer, real time clock, built in battery backup, is not UL rated for fire protection or public safety applications.

[oberkc]

I view this whole topic as a matter of degree and confidence. Insteon, and the ISY, can provide SOME level of security. Whether it is enough for any one person is up to them to decide. I don't have a security system (yet), but I believe that I am more secure with an ISY than without.

 

Can it completely replace an ELK or other security system? Not with the same levels of confidence and, in some cases, capabilities. Not in my mind, at least.

[ccclapp]

I view this whole topic as a matter of degree and confidence. Insteon, and the ISY, can provide SOME level of security. Whether it is enough for any one person is up to them to decide. I don't have a security system (yet), but I believe that I am more secure with an ISY than without.

 

Can it completely replace an ELK or other security system? Not with the same levels of confidence and, in some cases, capabilities. Not in my mind, at least.

 

 

Thanks for all of your comments. You make good sense. I think this last one, quoted above, is a good bottom line echoing the general feeling of the benefits of a dedicated system, but putting that in perspective of a given user's needs/priorities.

 

I will likely move in the direction of ELK. All of your answers helped clarify the choice.

[shannong]

The main issue is power. A security system like Elk will have a battery backup system included. I have also put it on a UPS along with my water shutoff valve. You cannot do that on Insteon based technologies which would include the ISY. So no power means no security, no fire, etc. Nothing.

 

There's also reliability of signal. Ever had a light not turn or other status not update on the ISY for whatever communication issue? I have. Many times. I have never had that with my wired or wireless sensor on my Elk. What if that signal lost on your Insteon network was the door opening? Or the FirstAlert smoke detector going off?

 

This is especially true of smoke/heat detectors. Most state laws do not allow the fire dept to be summoned by automated monitoring unless it's a UL approved system. Elk and many detectors are. Insteon and ISY are not. I want the fire dept at my house putting out the fire regardless of whether or not I know there's a fire.

 

On more minor issue, the Insteon sensors use RF technologies and communication protocols that are battery intensive that need to be replaced often. The Honeywell wireless sensors I use (and many others like Elk and GE) are designed to last for 3-5 years on a single battery. That's important for things like the front door and others used frequently. They are also much smaller. I have Honeywell wireless door sensors that are completely hidden. The Insteon ones tend be larger and unsightly.

[ccclapp]

I have Honeywell wireless door sensors that are completely hidden

 

Thanks shannong. Very good information.

 

You mention Honeywell. Did you ever look at a Honeywell security system as an alternative to ELK? I can get their products at dealer pricing and also like their Total Connect mobile interface as well as their 2-way communicating smokes/Co2. Do you have an opinion of their offering vs. ELK? I note most here use ELK, but dont know if that is due to a better product, or simply that ISY interfaces well with it.

 

Sorry do slightly divert my own thread

 

Thanks

[shannong]

Elk also has a GE radio and their own two-way radio. I use the Honeywell radio available for the Elk M1 security system. Honeywell has the best selection of wireless sensors that I've seen. Honeywell has 5X or more the number of sensors than available from GE or Elk including ones appropriate for exterior applications like the gate on my fence.

 

I chose Elk over other platforms because it has native integration with ISY. I can see the status of every smoke detector, door sensor, freezer sensor, etc from ISY. While I want the reliability the Elk provides for security, I want to also be able to leverage it all with my ISY for home automation The Elk can also directly turn on a device that the ISY controls.

[MaddBomber83]

Thank you OP for starting this conversation. Some good information in here.

 

Do you guys use hardwired cameras as well?

[shannong]

My two most important cameras will be wired because I can. For me those are the cameras for the front door and garage/driveway. The other two will be wireless since getting a cable to the location I need will be very difficult.

 

For me, the cameras won't integrate directly with the Elk. They'll integrate with the ISY which means I can trigger camera events based on Elk alarm events. Also as in the common example, when somebody rings the doorbell I'll get a text from ISY and an email with a snapshot from the front camera.

[ccclapp]

.Also as in the common example, when somebody rings the doorbell I'll get a text from ISY and an email with a snapshot from the front camera.

 

...nice, I need to read up on that. I believe I saw a thread about doing it, possibly yours.

 

PS: I bought an ELK today

[Bernman]

I am looking into the possibility of replacing my current alarm system from ADT with ELK. While I haven't dug too deeply into the ELK yet, I did poke through the website, and the question that comes to my mind is:

 

Why do I need the ISY?

 

It's clear that the ELK is a certified, robust, reliable security system and I fully understand why the ISY doesn't fill the security system role, but the ELK does have the capability to turn the lights on and off, open and close the garage doors, and even water the lawn (if it would only vacuum the house and make my bed, I would consider marriage...)

 

Now don't get me wrong, I really like my ISY and the projects that I have done so far, but it seems like the Elk can do everything that the ISY does. I am sure that I am missing something.

 

What does the combination of ISY and ELK do better than the ELK alone?

 

Thanks

Bernman

[oronomus]

Here is an example of how I use ELK to pass information to ISY: when I set the alarm to AWAY mode, ELK passes a command to ISY to turn out specified lights. If I set to AWAY-VACATION mode, lighting zones are set to random on and off, thermostats are set for efficiency, and irrigation is adjusted. When I disarm at the entry zone, lights turn on throughout the house and thermostats return to normal adjustment. I assume ELK can do much of this on its own, but the ISY scene/program/variable structure gives you a lot of options. I read some of the creative things guys have done here with ISY and I am amazed.

[DennisC]

I have both an Elk alarm panel and an ISY. I converted my old alarm system last October and added the ISY late November.

 

While the Elk is capable of controlling lighting and can handle other automation tasks, the ISY is much easier to program and receive alerts from.

 

The ISY also works with Insteon. When using the ELK for lighting, I think you are more or less limited to using relays (there are probably exceptions to this). The ease of programming with the ISY, for me, makes it a worthy expense.

 

With the ELK, you are some what limited with the messages you can receive. The ELK will only send predefined messages.

 

I also found the mobile access with the ISY to be more wife friendly (we use MobiLinc).

 

One more thing, with the proper set up, you can access the programming menu of the ISY from any computer. I don't believe that would be the case with the ELK.

 

Having said that, there are some functions I automated with the ELK (using relays) for reliability. As an example, I have a zone on my oil fired burner for making hot water. That zone is tied in to my ELK and only runs when my security system is disarmed. I also send a signal to a virtual output so I can control this from the ISY with the ELK integration module.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Dennis

[Bernman]

Ahh. This is really good feedback, particularly

 

The ISY also works with Insteon. When using the ELK for lighting, I think you are more or less limited to using relays...

 

I didn't realize that the ELK didn't interface to Insteon. That alone is the "must have" reason to have the ISY. Of course the rest of the points, ease of programming, alerts, WIFE FRIENDLY!!, all good reasons.

 

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks

[ccclapp]

Elk also has a GE radio and their own two-way radio. I use the Honeywell radio available for the Elk M1 security system. Honeywell has the best selection of wireless sensors that I've seen.

 

I had not picked up on something you said above until now...

 

If I understand correctly you say one needs a separate transmitter/receiver than the standard ELK wireless receiver to interact with Honeywell wireless devices. If so, possibly I should only get that transmitter/receiver and not the standard ELK one (or do I want/need the standard one as well)? My system is on order and I may need to tweak it. I expect to use Honeywell wireless contacts.

[DennisC]

I believe each brand of wireless receivers (Elk, Honeywell, & GE) will only work with their own devices. Last time I looked, Elk's wireless receiver was limited to only a handful of devices.

 

I would suggest figuring out what device you might want to add and select a wireless receiver to match. That way you can add your device whenever you would like.

 

Dennis

[ccclapp]

EDIT: BECAUSE THE FOLLOWING IS OFF TOPIC I MADE THE FOLLOWING QUESTION A SEPARATE THREAD IN THE ELK FORUM. THUS PLEASE REPLY HERE:

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14304'>http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14304

 

Does anyone know if the individual buttons on the ELK keypads can be addressed by ISY? The context of my question is, the EKL KPs have many more buttons than insteon KPs. I would love to use these to control my ISY programs. This would be especially useful for AV related control using this KP, which has LCD and direction control:

 

 

 

Can that be done? If so, can I go one step further and combine this with text being displayed on the KP LCD? If so, I could for example have a button run a series of programs to turn on and switch my Onlyo AVR to play DVD, turn on the TV screen, dim lights and have the KP display "Play Movie in Living Room"

 

For other uses this KP would be far more virsitile that the 6-8 button Insteon alternative...

 

 

 

If this gets too far off topic, I will do a separate post in the ELK forum.

 

EDIT: BECAUSE THE ABOVE IS OFF TOPIC I MADE THIS QUESTION A SEPARATE THREAD IN THE ELK FORUM. THUS PLEASE REPLY HERE:

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14304

[ccclapp]

I think you are more or less limited to using relays (there are probably exceptions to this).

Dennis

 

 

I believe ELK had an Zwave interface module.

[shannong]

I agree with Dennis that all lighting/automation/control is better done with the ISY. For things like turn off lights and setting HVAC, etc when I leave, I simply have a program on the ISY to detect the Elk in "armed" state and set a variable. I have various ISY programs that trigger off this variable to turn off lights, shut off the water, change set points on thermostat etc. Far more flexibility and easier to do with ISY vs trying to program the Elk to do it. Same thing for notifications. The options and ease of doing it with the ISY far exceed the Elk.

[ISYhbsh01]

I believe each brand of wireless receivers (Elk, Honeywell, & GE) will only work with their own devices. Last time I looked, Elk's wireless receiver was limited to only a handful of devices.

 

I would suggest figuring out what device you might want to add and select a wireless receiver to match. That way you can add your device whenever you would like.

 

Dennis

I started looking into the Elk M1. If I go forward with it I will mostly need to use wireless sensors. While doing my research I read that elk's own wireless receivers have 2 way communication while GE & Honeywell are only 1 way. What are your thoughts about that?

 

Also, can you have more than one wireless receiver connected to the M1?

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

[DennisC]

Also, can you have more than one wireless receiver connected to the M1?

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

 

I can't answer your question as I don't use wireless device for my Elk. I would suggest using hard wired devices for any alarm system whenever possible.

 

Dennis

[ISYhbsh01]

Unfortunately my home is not fully pre-wired for an alarm system. So I am thinking that 2 way wireless communication will be almost as good as a wired connection. That's if my assumption is correct, that 2 way communication means that the sensors & the control panel are in constant communication, and that the M1 would immediately know if a sensor stopped working.

[ccclapp]

Unfortunately my home is not fully pre-wired for an alarm system. .

 

For what it is worth, I just retrofit wired 25 windows and doors in a 15 year old house in 2 days with another guy using 3' and 6' x 1/4" electrician drill bits and a "Glowfish Tool Box Kit" expandable fiberglass pulling kit. Cost: tools $50; 1500' 22 AWG 4 conductor wire (only 2 conductor needed for contacts, but extras never hurt) $125; magnetic 3/8" diameter wired window contacts $2 each. On 1st floor windows drilled 1/4" hole bottom of window (where lower sash closes onto the sill) hole goes down to basement. On 2nd floor I did the reverse drilling from the top of the window up into the attic (I will then conceal the wire in weight well / sash spring groove. Stick Glowfish rod into hole, attach wire from basement, pull into window, connect contact.

 

Wireless contacts are $30-$75 each, and not as much fun to do

 

I am not a contractor, and am only slightly "handy"

 

You might reconsider.

 

PS: Now I have to figure out how to install the ELK M1