Boot Sequence of PLM / ISY after Power Outage

[NeilP]

I had posted a question a few days ago while I was out of town about my remote dashboard showing all devices as simultaneously on and off and also being unable to view any of my programs. This was after a 33 hour power outage at my home. The consensus was that I had PLM troubles of some sort.

 

Now that I am back home from my road trip I was able to check things out. Indeed my ISY was in safe mode and PLM/info under Diagnostics did show that the PLM was not connected . However I noticed that the ISY's RX LED flickered in response to Insteon traffic on my power lines, the PLM's LED was lit up and green, the PLM was not hot to the touch and the ISY log did show all of the expected traffic on my system.

 

So I power cycled the PLM while leaving the ISY still powered up. The PLM/info diagnostics still showed the PLM as not connected.

 

I then power cycled the ISY while leaving the PLM powered up. The PLM/info diagnostics then recognized the PLM and reported it as connected.  I also could remotely see the proper status of my devices as well as my programs. So everything was working OK.

 

I currently have my ISY on a UPS with the PLM directly connected to the power line. In my case after 33 hours of no power even the UPS shut down, shutting off the ISY. When the power eventually came on both the ISY and PLM powered up but the ISY must have completed its reboot first, did not see the PLM and consequently went into safe mode.

 

So it appears that it is critical that in the event of a power failure a proper boot sequence must be followed.....ie PLM first, then ISY.  Does anyone have any insight on this?

 

I am beginning to question the wisdom of having the ISY on a UPS.  I have a whole house surge protector as well as a number of point of use surge protectors which should protect the ISY against surges if it is not behind a UPS. The only other protection that a UPS would give is against brief momentary power drop outs. It doesn't really benefit me to have the ISY up and running in a long term power outage if the rest of the house is without power anyways.  Any thoughts on this?

 

I do want to stabilize this system as it does not provide me any value to remotely monitor my house while I am away if the ISY/PLM combo is going to hang up in a power failure. All comments welcome.

 

Neil

[LeeG]

Normally the PLM will come up faster than the ISY when power is applied at the same time.   I don't think having the ISY on a UPS is normally an issue.  It does keep the ISY up over short power outages.  My guess is the PLM was upset by a power line issue from the outage.   Power does not always come up cleanly when restored from an outage.  There is often a very large draw on the power when an entire circuit is powered at once.  Consider how many houses were restored at the same time when power was restored. Unless this is an issue that surfaces on all outages I would not change the current arrangement.

 

edit:  I had my ISY on the UPS years ago.   This is a very rural area and power would drop out for 1-2 seconds frequently, some times multiple times a day.  Eventually the power co-op redid the entire system.  Added more substations, cleaned up the trees along the power lines to prevent wind from blowing limbs into wires.   Now the power here is more reliable than my other house in a large town.  Eventually took the ISY off the UPS as it was not needed any more but it worked well for the years it was on the UPS. 

Edited July 9, 2014 by LeeG

[Brian H]

I have my ISY994i and computing equipement on an UPS and the PLM in the pass through outlet on a FilterLinc. UPS is on the filtered outlet.

Never had a problem with short power losses and the system working OK.

In long outages where I have turned the UPS off. Like with Super Storm Sandy. I did find it was best to power up the PLM first then the ISY994i. Most times it didn't matter but one time it went into safe mode.

 

Maybe with a 33 hour outtage your UPS shut down and added to the timing whan powered back up.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Brian H

[Xathros]

To add to what LeeG said, in the event this does happen again, you can log into the Admin console and reboot the ISY.  This should correct the situation assuming the PLM is still functional.

 

-Xathros

[Michel Kohanim]

NeilP,

 

I must humbly submit to you that your PLM is dying. The reason is that ISY retries 3 times in a span of 20 seconds to try and connect to the PLM at boot up. So, if indeed it took the PLM more than 20 seconds to boot, then I am almost certain the PLM is on its way to heaven. This is especially the case when you had a power outage.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Teken]

NeilP,

 

As a safeguard I have a remote web switch that pings, schedules, and stages the start up of the ISY and any other network device. This allows me the ability to remote boot any network device or let the system do so automatically.

 

This might be something you could think about for your environment.

[NeilP]

Thanks everyone for all the replies.

 

LeeG..you are right....the power does fluctuate considerably as it is restored. On a previous instance I happened to be in front of my UPS watching the front panel voltmeter as the power was turned up. It started at about 100 VAC and then over a period of about 10 minutes finally reached 120 VAC. Of course I am sure that there were all sorts of transients (both level and phase) taking place that the voltmeter would not show. In this most recent case our particular outage involved only our house and my new neighbours house....I have a primary voltage (7.2 KV) line coming into our property (rural area) terminating in a transformer which feeds our house and my neighbour. There were many other related outages at the time due to a large storm but we were one of the last to be restored because only our two houses were affected.

 

BrianH.... I agree. The UPS probably shut down during the 33 hours and probably took a short while to turn on after power was restored. However this should have meant that the PLM rebooted first, followed by the ISY coming up once the UPS turned back on. This should have been the proper sequence.

 

Xathros.....Where in the Admin console can you reboot the ISY? I cant seem to find it.   Also when I travel I normally just have my iPad. AFAIK there is no Java capability for the iPad.

 

Michel....if my PLM is dying I hope it doesn't go to heaven but somewhere much warmer.  This is the PLM that came with my original ISY 99ir Pro about three years ago. Perhaps it is reaching end of life. I will be watching it closely from here on and will also be watching for announced release of the UDI PLM.

 

Teken....I am very interested in a remote web power switch. I have read a couple of the threads on the forum about these devices. I was considering building a pure hardware device using time delay relays to do the same but certainly having a remotely accessible device would be more desirable. Which unit do you have?   BTW I think that we are somewhat co-located. I am in YWG territory also....just north of the city. you probably experienced the same storm that caused my problems ( melted all the ice cream in our fridge!)

 

Thanks all.

Neil

[Teken]

Thanks everyone for all the replies.

 

LeeG..you are right....the power does fluctuate considerably as it is restored. On a previous instance I happened to be in front of my UPS watching the front panel voltmeter as the power was turned up. It started at about 100 VAC and then over a period of about 10 minutes finally reached 120 VAC. Of course I am sure that there were all sorts of transients (both level and phase) taking place that the voltmeter would not show. In this most recent case our particular outage involved only our house and my new neighbours house....I have a primary voltage (7.2 KV) line coming into our property (rural area) terminating in a transformer which feeds our house and my neighbour. There were many other related outages at the time due to a large storm but we were one of the last to be restored because only our two houses were affected.

 

BrianH.... I agree. The UPS probably shut down during the 33 hours and probably took a short while to turn on after power was restored. However this should have meant that the PLM rebooted first, followed by the ISY coming up once the UPS turned back on. This should have been the proper sequence.

 

Xathros.....Where in the Admin console can you reboot the ISY? I cant seem to find it.   Also when I travel I normally just have my iPad. AFAIK there is no Java capability for the iPad.

 

Michel....if my PLM is dying I hope it doesn't go to heaven but somewhere much warmer.  This is the PLM that came with my original ISY 99ir Pro about three years ago. Perhaps it is reaching end of life. I will be watching it closely from here on and will also be watching for announced release of the UDI PLM.

 

Teken....I am very interested in a remote web power switch. I have read a couple of the threads on the forum about these devices. I was considering building a pure hardware device using time delay relays to do the same but certainly having a remotely accessible device would be more desirable. Which unit do you have?   BTW I think that we are somewhat co-located. I am in YWG territory also....just north of the city. you probably experienced the same storm that caused my problems ( melted all the ice cream in our fridge!)

 

Thanks all.

Neil

 

 

 

Hello NeilP,

 

We have been using these web enabled switches for more than 15 years: http://www.digital-loggers.com/lpc.html  Some personal details about the switch can be found in this on going install thread here: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929&start=40

Edited July 10, 2014 by Teken

[Xathros]

 

Xathros.....Where in the Admin console can you reboot the ISY? I cant seem to find it.   Also when I travel I normally just have my iPad. AFAIK there is no Java capability for the iPad.

On the Configuration / System tab at the bottom of the box titled "System".  You are correct that this is not accessible with an iPad however.  I have used RDC to connect to a machine at work to connect to my ISY and gain access to the admin console from my iPad on a few occasions.  Kinda the long way around but it does work in a pinch.

 

I also use the Digital Loggers DIN relay web switch similar to the WebSwitch that Teken linked to for some of my isy/network gear as well as for ISY control of a few local appliances.  Well worth the price and in the few years I've been using it, it has never failed.  I'm pretty sure that what Teken linked to is the same core device with a power cord and outlets attached.

 

-Xathros

Edited July 10, 2014 by Xathros

[Teken]

On the Configuration / System tab at the bottom of the box titled "System".  You are correct that this is not accessible with an iPad however.  I have used RDC to connect to a machine at work to connect to my ISY and gain access to the admin console from my iPad on a few occasions.  Kinda the long way around but it does work in a pinch.

 

I also use the Digital Loggers DIN relay web switch similar to the WebSwitch that Teken linked to for some of my isy/network gear as well as for ISY control of a few local appliances.  Well worth the price and in the few years I've been using it, it has never failed.  I'm pretty sure that what Teken linked to is the same core device with a power cord and outlets attached.

 

-Xathros

 

 

Yes, same device as yours but geared toward a point of use area opposed to a centralized location like the DIN module.

[NeilP]

Teken and Xathros,

 

Sorry for the late response to your replies.......I was busy chainsawing and transporting to the local dump all of the trees that were downed by the storm that caused my power outage. All finished now.

 

Thanks for the info on the DIN Relay and Web power switch. Both units look interesting to me. Each has benefits and drawbacks.  The web power switch appears to switch only one power source for all outlets. In my case I needed to power cycle both the PLM on basic household power and the ISY on UPS power. The advantage however is a nice self-contained package.  By contrast the DIN Relay appears to switch whatever is connected to the individual relays but would then need some sort of enclosure/outlets. I have sent an email to the manufacturer asking if they have a Canadian distributor for their products.

 

Xathros....are you switching both line voltage and low voltage devices with the DIN Relay? Do you have the relay unit in an enclosure to safely protect the line voltage connections? I could envision an enclosure with switched outlets and multiple power input for basic and UPS power.

 

Teken....the link to your house project has some very interesting stuff on it. I have to take some time now to digest all the info but it seems that you have touched on many topics that I have considered for my house.

 

Xathros...thanks for telling me where to find the reboot button in the admin console. It works!

Also thanks for the tip about Remote Desktop. In my case I have my UPS configured to turn off my PC after being on battery power for 5 minutes under the rationale that I would rather have my ISY and networking gear stay up as long as possible in a power outage. I may have to re-think that approach. However there may be other non-power outage circumstances where I want to remotely access the Admin Console so I will follow through on that.

 

On another different but related note I discovered that one of my two EZIO2x4s had stopped automatically reporting status changes. I did a factory reset and restored from the ISY and all is back to normal.  I have had similar troubles with both of these devices in the past but I suspect this instance was related to the power outage. The unit that did not fail was plugged directly into the receptacle of a Belkin single outlet surge protector (from which I had previously removed the signal sucker filter capacitor) and is also within about 3 wire-feet of the main panel with the whole home surge protector on it. The unit that did fail was not plugged directly in but did have an identical Belkin plugged into another outlet about 10 wire-feet away on the same line circuit.

 

Today's projects are to set up a run-on-start-up program to notify me when the ISY reboots and also to connect an AC powered time delay relay into one of the analog ports (all my digital ports are used) on my EZIO8SA to notify me that the Insteon network has been down due to power failure and is now back up.

 

Neil

[Teken]

The web switch is powered by one AC outlet but you have full control of turning on / off / cycle any of the eight receptacles independently.

 

There is also a iPhone app which allows you to perform the same actions when not in front of a computer system.

[Xathros]

While I could switch 115VAC with the DinRelay, I opted to switch the low voltage side of the wall warts that power the ISY and other network components.  This way, I was able to just mount the DinRelay on my backboard and not have to worry about exposed high voltages.  The web switch is simply the DIN Relay packaged for switching 115VAC.

 

@Teken, I'll have to check out the iPhone app and see if it works with the DinRelay too.  Thanks for the tip!

 

-Xathros

[Teken]

While I could switch 115VAC with the DinRelay, I opted to switch the low voltage side of the wall warts that power the ISY and other network components.  This way, I was able to just mount the DinRelay on my backboard and not have to worry about exposed high voltages.  The web switch is simply the DIN Relay packaged for switching 115VAC.

 

@Teken, I'll have to check out the iPhone app and see if it works with the DinRelay too.  Thanks for the tip!

 

-Xathros

 

The App isn't pretty but it works just perfect!

[johnnyt]

I have the iOS app and it controls both my webswitch and DIN relay fine. They are great, rock solid devices. App is quite rudimentary. I use it to override some hvac dampers that ISY controls. Avoids having to do all kinds of ISY programming to allow for the overriding.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Teken]

I have the iOS app and it controls both my webswitch and DIN relay fine. They are great, rock solid devices. App is quite rudimentary. I use it to override some hvac dampers that ISY controls. Avoids having to do all kinds of ISY programming to allow for the overriding.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

The only thing I can say is don't ever try to get warranty repairs from the company. They truly suck *** and have terrible customer service after the sale! 

 

They have to be one of the worst American companies I have ever had to deal with regarding warranty repairs and tech support.

[NeilP]

Xathros...switching the low voltage output of the wall warts makes sense. I could do that for my ISY but I also want to switch the PLM which of course is plugged directly into a receptacle. I may have to switch a slaved low voltage relay to control power to a separate receptacle for the PLM. I too would prefer to just mount the DIN Relay on my backboard with all the terminals exposed.

             ...also while trying out the admin console reboot function that you told me about I have found that my ISY does not successfully reboot every time. It frequently hangs up with both TX and RX leds on full. I will contact UDI about this directly.

 

Teken...your comment about poor after-sales support is timely. I emailed the company about if I could purchase their products from a Canadian distributor and have not received any response yet.

 

johnnyt....where did you purchase your unit from? Did you get it from a Canadian source or direct from the US? I would like to avoid the hassle of customs and duty etc.

 

Neil

[Xathros]

Neil-

 

I'm thinking your PLM, as Michel indicated,  is on it's way out.  RX lit steady means unable to communicate with the PLM.

 

-Xathros

[jsu1995]

...I may have to switch a slaved low voltage relay to control power to a separate receptacle for the PLM. I too would prefer to just mount the DIN Relay on my backboard with all the terminals exposed.

 

In my experience, a good device for this situation is something like a Wattstopper BZ-50.  The device is made to integrate lighting control with a remote motion detector, but it works great by itself wherever you want low-voltage switching of a single line-voltage circuit.  It's nice because you don't have to worry about separation of the line voltage since the device fits in a 1/2" conduit opening of a junction box and leaves the low-voltage stuff on the outside.  Also, it includes a 24VDC power supply, so all you need is a dry contact output across the red and blue wires to turn the circuit on.

 

http://www.wattstopper.com/~/media/WattStopper/Documents/PDF/cut-sheets/Sensors/BZ-50-Universal-Voltage-Power-Pack-Cut-Sheet.ashx

 

 

I have deployed many of these in my house to control outlets and lighting.  I use it for things like my holiday outlets in the attic,my exterior outlets of the house, high-wattage flood lights, electrical closet exhaust fan, and my dryer booster fan.  I control them with outputs from my Elk M1 panel, so everything can easily be integrated via the ISY.

 

The drawback, of course, is that there is a fair amount of wiring involved (the line side and the low-voltage side), but it's not a big deal for me.  I'd rather control these circuits this way than to add a bunch of LineLincs or OutletLinc modules at $50-$60 a pop. 

 

 For your situation, you would just wire the red and blue wires to the DIN relay's NC contacts.  I couldn't find what the current draw is on the DIN relay, but if it's under 225mA, then the BZ-50 could actually provide the 24VDC power for it.

Edited July 15, 2014 by jsu1995

[Teken]

 

Teken...your comment about poor after-sales support is timely. I emailed the company about if I could purchase their products from a Canadian distributor and have not received any response yet.

 

Neil

 

Our company has thousands of these devices installed all over the world. Even with our billion dollar operations and proven track record in buying, using, their products.

 

Their lack luster support, after sales warranty RMA process, is pretty much sh^t.

 

Regardless, the latest version 6-7 are top notch products so hopefully you won't ever have to deal with them personally! 

[johnnyt]

johnnyt....where did you purchase your unit from? Did you get it from a Canadian source or direct from the US? I would like to avoid the hassle of customs and duty etc.

 

Neil

I ended up visiting my in-laws in Florida for March break so had the devices shipped there (bought the webswitch in 2013 and the din relay this year). Have not had to deal with company for warranty issues so can't confirm or deny any problems on that front but fwiw I did ask a question once and got the answer in good time. Maybe they only answer the easy 'no skin off their back' questions, which is a bit disappointing to learn.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

Teken...your comment about poor after-sales support is timely. I emailed the company about if I could purchase their products from a Canadian distributor and have not received any response yet.

 

johnnyt....where did you purchase your unit from? Did you get it from a Canadian source or direct from the US? I would like to avoid the hassle of customs and duty etc.

 

Neil

Have you considered contacting aartech.ca to see if they would import them for you? Excellent company to deal with, great pricing and  delivery, as you may already know.

[NeilP]

Neil-

 

I'm thinking your PLM, as Michel indicated,  is on it's way out.  RX lit steady means unable to communicate with the PLM.

 

-Xathros

 

Xathros....I filed an official trouble ticket with UDI. They had me upgrade to 4.2.5. Now my ISY seems to reboot properly without hanging up. I will have to keep an eye on it going forward to see if that solved the problem.

 

 

Have you considered contacting aartech.ca to see if they would import them for you? Excellent company to deal with, great pricing and  delivery, as you may already know.

 

larryllix.....no, I had not considered Aartech and yes, they are an excellent company to deal with. I will send them a note.

 

Neil

[Xathros]

Excellent!  I still have some concerns about your PLM given the history you have posted.  Lets hope it holds up and that the upgrade solves the problems.

 

-Xathros

[nadler]

Excuse me for jumping in on this thread but it seems the best place to ask a similar question. 

 

After a power failure my ISY reboots faster then my router.  Upon power restoration and rebooting of both devices I gain LAN access to the ISY but I do not have internet access.  If I am home I can reboot the ISY through the admin console or unplug it and plug it in and internet access is restored.  If I am not at home although the ISY works I can't access it or the admin console remotely.  I guess I can buy the web switch mentioned in an earlier post but that's $129 and adds complexity. 

 

Anyone have the same issue or perhaps a suggestion?

 

Anyone know of a  way to delay the reboot of the ISY programmatically?

 

Interesting I do not have this issue with my ELK-M1XEP.  Although it reboots before the router I can still access it remotely after power restoration.

 

The router is a netgear R 6300v2.

 

Thanks.

 

Noel