Teken Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I would like to know what the members think about this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 What is a Signalinc RF? If that like an Access Point? The only Signalinc I ever owned was a passive wired only coupler and I would agree that it is not suitable for linking to RF devices by itself. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 What is a Signalinc RF? If that like an Access Point? The only Signalinc I ever owned was a passive wired only coupler and I would agree that it is not suitable for linking to RF devices by itself. -Xathros Xathros, That is exactly what I thought! I had only seen the hardwired passive unit that installs at the breaker panel. Maybe its a typo because it doesn't make any sense. Even if it was a RF device why would it not be able to receive and send on behalf of the MS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, that's an old school insteon product, a predecessor to the access point. It won't support the newer insteon protocols. I don't recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It's a hard wired phase coupler for Insteon and X10 UPDATE: The coupler I'm referring to is the 2406H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Fair enough. There are two insteon products called. Signal Linc. One hardwires in the electrical panel. The other is the old school access point that doesn't support i2, vs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I do recommend the one that goes in the panel. My insteon reliability increased measurably with its addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The old 2442 SignalLinc RF was was the original Insteon Phase Coupler. Replaced by the 2443 Access Point and now the latest 2992-222 Range Extender. Though it used both RF and power line Insteon signaling. It will NOT process the present Insteon RF devices as it used a different RF frequency of 904MHz. All the present Insteon RF devices are 915MHz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The SignaLinc being referred to is what we now call a Range Extender/Access Point. The very old SignaLincs are both RF and powerline just like a Range Extender/Access Point. They have a black external antenna out the bottom of the device and operate on a different RF frequency. SmartLabs found it necessary to move to a new RF frequency when they started selling RF only and what we now think of as Dual Band devices. Until that point the only device with RF was the SignaLinc which coupled just like the Range Extender. SmartLabs practically gave away the Access Points back then to move everyone to the new RF frequency. I have a few SignaLincs in their original box as they did not have good range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Much thanks to everyone for the insight and feed back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The original SignaLinc RF, 2442, coupled the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply using an RF signal. As has been mentioned, that particular frequency is not compatible with any INSTEON RF device. It works as a bridge and does not interfere with any current INSTEON DEVICE. The current SignaLinc, 2406H is a hardwired coupler. It has no RF capabilities at all. IMO, it is the best coupling device for INSTEON due to it being installed at or in the main panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Stu- Is the 2406H a passive or active coupler? I have my access points installed on dedicated outlets at the main panel. These provide active coupling as well as RF coverage for that area of my home. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The 2406H is passive. From the sales page "SignaLinc V2 Passive Coupler" which is why I prefer Range Extender/Access Points for coupling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Thanks Lee, Thats what I thought. I'll stick with my Access Point bridge. It has been serving me well! I like the idea of a full strength repeat on the opposite phase as well as not bridging noise from one phase to the other. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbates Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 This thread offers an alternative view , that access points are repeaters and add a hop if things go through them. This includes across the phases if that's how you're bridging them. The trip through the center of my panel on a signal linc phase coupler that adds 0 hops. I consider that signal linc phase coupler to be one of the best investments I made in insteon. http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/2796-some-thoughts-on-phase-coupling-in-relation-to-access-points/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 It also couples all the noise on one phase to the other phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 It also couples all the noise on one phase to the other phase. When I decided to go down the whole HA journey and selected Insteon as my HA of choice. I sat down and considered my long term plans and goals. I tried to weigh out all the pro's and con's of using either the passive coupler / active access point (AP). I decided to go with the AP as it allowed ease of placement in the area, zone, floor, space that required RF reception along with having the ability to bridge both sides of the electrical feed. The benefits of repeating a weak signal all the while negating any existing line noise was the other. My future plans were to expand my house, even though I have tons of space in my breaker panel I didn't want to lose two slots just for the sake of Insteon bridging. This is how I ultimately decided on the path I did moving forward, no regrets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 INSTEON signals. like everything else that flows on the powerline, including the AC current, flows through every possible conductor. That's why devices on the same leg of the split, single-phase electric supply usually have little difficulty communicating even though they may be on different circuits. But, the only conductor between the opposite legs is the distribution transformer. A bridge alleviates that problem. RF bridges are effective phase-couplers (that's the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply that are being coupled), they can be made portable and can be built into INSTEON devices. Installing them doesn't require powering down the building and providing/finding a housing for the device. They do not require working near a live, potentially fatal, voltage. Back to the panel. Any INSTEON signal that makes it to the panel follows the same rule as the current does. That is, the largest part flows down the path of least resistance, which in this case is the supply feed wire. Unless that path of least resistance is near or in the panel. A hardwired coupler provides that path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I just placed my ISY994i a few feet of wire from my distribution panel. I have a passive X10 bridge across my phases but I am not sure if it does anything for Insteon signals. I rely on dual-band modules to relay the signals between phases of my service and always figured the APs were obsolete technology used before the dual-band feature was created. They shouldn't be needed in most applications with modern Insteon units. I have a spare unit as a repeater in my shop, which is an out-building coated with metal foil insulation and a metal roof. Radios don't work well in it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 I just placed my ISY994i a few feet of wire from my distribution panel. I have a passive X10 bridge across my phases but I am not sure if it does anything for Insteon signals. I rely on dual-band modules to relay the signals between phases of my service and always figured the APs were obsolete technology used before the dual-band feature was created. They shouldn't be needed in most applications with modern Insteon units. I have a spare unit as a repeater in my shop, which is an out-building coated with metal foil insulation and a metal roof. Radios don't work well in it . I would never rely solely on the RF portion of the Insteon dual band device as a means of communications. The only caveat is the use of the AP units which send / receive via RF to powerline fantastically. Outputs more power, can be relocated for best RF range, and helps to bridge both sides of the electrical feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I just placed my ISY994i a few feet of wire from my distribution panel. I have a passive X10 bridge across my phases but I am not sure if it does anything for Insteon signals. I rely on dual-band modules to relay the signals between phases of my service and always figured the APs were obsolete technology used before the dual-band feature was created. They shouldn't be needed in most applications with modern Insteon units. I have a spare unit as a repeater in my shop, which is an out-building coated with metal foil insulation and a metal roof. Radios don't work well in it . INSTEON (131.65 kHz) and X10 (120 kHz) powerline signals are close enough that a phase bridge for one serves as a bridge for the other. And, I agree that dual-band devices, in most situations, adequately couple the opposite legs of the split, single-phase (not phases) electric supply. But, APs (now called Range Extenders) are handy when RF range is lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I would never rely solely on the RF portion of the Insteon dual band device as a means of communications. The only caveat is the use of the AP units which send / receive via RF to powerline fantastically. Outputs more power, can be relocated for best RF range, and helps to bridge both sides of the electrical feed. From the Smarthome webpage of the Access Point Phase Coupler http://www.smarthome.com/2443/Access-Point-INSTEON-Wireless-Phase-Coupler-Dual-Band/p.aspx "The Access Point functionality is built into all dual-band INSTEON products". Do you feel the AP units have a more powerful radio signal? Funny the description of the repeater algorithm contradicts the other dual-band units although somewhat vague on each. The AP manual does claim that they work on three phase systems as well a two phase systems. This seems to contradict some of the other dual band manual descriptions of functionality. This would be good news for Insteon people on "network" residential style grid feeds where the two phases are not 180 degrees out of phase but rather 120 degrees, as found in many multi-unit residences, depending on the area power authority. This is a conductor cost-saving scheme used by many utilities that has it's own set of quirks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 The manual is incorrect where is refers to phases. Other than there is no reference to a "two phase" system (which hasn't been in use for decades), the electricity in virtually all of North and South America is split, single-phase or three-phase which has two variations, delta and wye. Single-phase is the usual supply for single and "smaller" multiple occupancy residences whereas three-phase is found primarily in industrial and commercial buildings including apartment buildings, co-ops, condos, etc.. Opposite legs of a single-phase are, in fact, 180º out-of-phase, that's why they're called opposites. OTOH, the wires on a three-phase system are correctly referred to as phases. I don't mean to faze anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Smartlabs indicated that Access Points can be used in a three phase power system. At least one on each phase. My thoughts are. The Insteon RF command is received by an Access Point and then is resynchronized to that phases Zero Crossing. Then passed to the power line it is connected to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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