Insteon when on a generator...

[grtaylor]

So we lost power for 24 hours the other day and were running on portable generator for that time. All good, except...Any and all Insteon traffic causes every light connected to an Insteon switch to flicker/flash in tune with the traffic.

 

I had to unplug the ISY as with all the programs I have set up, and the way it queries the network when it starts, it was causing a crazy light show in the house.

 

Does anyone else have experience of this? Is my generator putting out rough power, not filtering it? I did learn since I need to switch my generator from a bonded neutral to floating due to the type of transfer switch I use, but would that improve the situation? Or do I just have to live with it?

 

None of my links work when on generator power btw, all the noise on the line seems to stop signals getting acted on, though clearly the power lines are carrying the signals as I see the lights flashing.

 

Advice welcome!

 

Greg

[Teken]

So we lost power for 24 hours the other day and were running on portable generator for that time. All good, except...Any and all Insteon traffic causes every light connected to an Insteon switch to flicker/flash in tune with the traffic.

 

I had to unplug the ISY as with all the programs I have set up, and the way it queries the network when it starts, it was causing a crazy light show in the house.

 

Does anyone else have experience of this? Is my generator putting out rough power, not filtering it? I did learn since I need to switch my generator from a bonded neutral to floating due to the type of transfer switch I use, but would that improve the situation? Or do I just have to live with it?

 

None of my links work when on generator power btw, all the noise on the line seems to stop signals getting acted on, though clearly the power lines are carrying the signals as I see the lights flashing.

 

Advice welcome!

 

Greg

 

Hello Greg,

 

Insteon requires a neutral at all times to operate correctly. There are not very many portable generators that output a pure sine wave power. Unless its a high end Honda / Yamaha which do in fact provide a nice regulated and pure sine wave output.

 

Also, you will notice flashing / strobing with LED light fixtures when compared to standard incandescent lights which simply get dimmer / brighter as the voltage fluctuates. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by Teken

[grtaylor]

Thanks Teken. Cleary I have neutral, else I really wouldn't have much of anything working, but I have been digging in to the floating vs bonded neutral thing and think I really need to switch that and then retry.

[Teken]

Thanks Teken. Cleary I have neutral, else I really wouldn't have much of anything working, but I have been digging in to the floating vs bonded neutral thing and think I really need to switch that and then retry.

 

Hello Greg,

 

To clarify what type of lights do you have in place that are strobing / flashing? What model and brand is this generator that you have in place now.

 

With respect to the bonded vs floating neutral I am assuming you're speaking about the transfer switch and not the actual sub panel / main panel?

[stusviews]

Unless the generator produces a pure sine wave (few do), INSTEON signalling will be negatively affected. It may be best to unplug both the PLM and ISY during these times. Wired INSTEON devices will continue to control their loads with no adverse affects (unless voltage regulation is extremely poor, not usual).

[grtaylor]

I have a Westinghouse generator going to a Reliance Controls transfer switch. The Generator has a bonded neutral, and Reliance recommends I change that to a floating neutral as their transfer switch doesn't switch neutral.

 

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand floating vs bonded neutral well enough to really understand if that's my issue or not.

 

What I see is any lighting load connected to any Insteon device flickers/flashes when Insteon traffic is on the wire. I hit a switch that's a controller for a scene, with every command sent over the wire, all the loads in the house flicker and flash, then stop when the traffic stops. It's freaky.

 

Stu - I did unplug ISY last time, as that starting up was making me dizzy with all the flashing.

[stusviews]

Most generators have a jumper between neutral and ground. That's the bond. Reliance recommends that you remove the jumper so that the neutral "floats" above ground.

[larryllix]

As per Stu above ....and your main panel should have it's neutral bonded to ground at that point.  You don't want two places bonded to ground. It can causes some sharing of neutral currents through the ground in your house.

 

The "bond" on the generator is only used where you run the generator for an isolated usage, say a campsite or other site not involved with a permanent, bonded to ground neutral, electrical system.

 

If this is a electromagnetic generator output then your frequency is probably wandering (or wandered) off of 60Hz. If you have a synthesised output then you likely do not have a good enough waveform for Insteon to work on.

[grtaylor]

So I made the change to a floating neutral on the generator and no effect, I still have psychotropic lighting when running on it. Guess I need to spend the money on a higher quality generator to avoid it.

 

Thanks for the replies.

[Teken]

If you decide to upgrade the generator for one that outputs as close to true sine wave power. Many of the Generac models and the Kohler models perform very well and provide clean electricity for computers and sensitive electronics.

 

If you're simply looking for a small portable one you can not go wrong with a Honda EU 2000 / 3000 models. They are pretty much the standard in terms of small, portable, fuel efficient, low noise, and true clean power output.

[MustangChris04]

Hate to bring up such an old thread, but I was having the exact same issue when hurricane Matthew hit a few weeks ago. I fired up the generator and all the lights would flicker when there was Insteon traffic. It was very frightening seeing the entire house flicker at the same time. I was worried something could have been damaged so I immediately shut it off. Generators have a THD (total harmonic distortion) rating but I could not find one for my Coleman Powermate and the manufacturer doesn't even know. I'm sure it's around the 10% range, possibly even more. 

 

Portable Inverter generators have minimal distortion because they have a stepped sine wave, and some portable inverter generators produce a pure sine wave, but they are very expensive and do not handle a lot of wattage that I would need for the house. 

 

Does anybody have any experience running a generator with Insteon? I'm wondering if a generator that advertises a THD of 5% or less would play happy with Inteon?

[larryllix]

Hate to bring up such an old thread, but I was having the exact same issue when hurricane Matthew hit a few weeks ago. I fired up the generator and all the lights would flicker when there was Insteon traffic. It was very frightening seeing the entire house flicker at the same time. I was worried something could have been damaged so I immediately shut it off. Generators have a THD (total harmonic distortion) rating but I could not find one for my Coleman Powermate and the manufacturer doesn't even know. I'm sure it's around the 10% range, possibly even more. 

 

Portable Inverter generators have minimal distortion because they have a stepped sine wave, and some portable inverter generators produce a pure sine wave, but they are very expensive and do not handle a lot of wattage that I would need for the house. 

 

Does anybody have any experience running a generator with Insteon? I'm wondering if a generator that advertises a THD of 5% or less would play happy with Inteon?

Mine work fairly well on Outback Inverters but ther distortion is down about 4-5% IIRC.

 

Frequency is important and if your generator is not a synthesized crystal controlled frequency, the distortion probably won't matter anyway.

 

Usually classified that a square wave, with a gap in the polarity reversal, is called modified sinewave. I doubt Insteon would run on that at all. It lacks a clear zero crossing time.

 

A multi-stepped sqaure wave is called a true synewave. Usually filtering is used to attempt to smooth this out more, and lowers the distortion figures.

 

An electromechanical generator usually produces the best sinewave but the frequency wanders but also some generator cores have slots in the lminations and produce nasty notches in the waveforms.

[midrar]

So I had a similar issue where all of my led lights connected to any Insteon switch would flicker when my home was powered by a portable 8k watt generator. I am now looking to purchase a standby backup generator and it's important to me that I do not experience a similar issue. Does anyone have a generac, cummins, kohler, or Briggs standby generator? Any flickering issues? Thanks

[Scottmichaelj]

So I had a similar issue where all of my led lights connected to any Insteon switch would flicker when my home was powered by a portable 8k watt generator. I am now looking to purchase a standby backup generator and it's important to me that I do not experience a similar issue. Does anyone have a generac, cummins, kohler, or Briggs standby generator? Any flickering issues? Thanks

Generac 20kwh Guardian with auto transfer switch, zero issues.

[larryllix]

Two Outback 3.6kW inverters with no problems.

[MustangChris04]

Generac 20kwh Guardian with auto transfer switch, zero issues.

This is the standby generator I am looking to get, or their Synergy series. All my lights are LED and all the switches are dimmers. Do you have any dimmer switches with dimmable LEDs, and if so do they work properly when on the Generac or do they flicker?

 

Thanks,

Christopher 

[lilyoyo1]

I have a kohler whole house with zero issues

Edited September 5, 2017 by lilyoyo1

[MustangChris04]

Just an update on my generator purchase. I picked up a Generac XP10000E, plugged it into my 50a inlet and simultaneously powered everything on my breaker (all lights, 3.5 ton A/C, water heater, microwave, cooktop, and 2 refrigerators.) The only breakers I didn't turn on was the range and dishwasher. I was consuming about 8500 watts.

 

All Insteon traffic worked, but was slightly delayed and there was some slight flickering on the keypad's LEDs and dimmer switch LEDs. All lights are CREE LED bulbs and didn't flicker.

 

Once I turned off breakers to everything except the lights, I was only consuming about 500 watts. At this time the CREE LEDs would flicker on Insteon traffic. Turning off idle control helped the flicker.

 

The unit is advertised with TruePower for under 5% THD. I though it would handle Insteon a little better than it did but I'm still happy, as long as I keep a little load on the genset.

[Brian H]

Thanks for the update.

Insteon times its communications to the AC Zero Crossing.

I vaguely remember. The frequency had to be very close to 60 cycles for it to work correctly. The newer 50/60 cycle models I have no data on.

[larryllix]

Just an update on my generator purchase. I picked up a Generac XP10000E, plugged it into my 50a inlet and simultaneously powered everything on my breaker (all lights, 3.5 ton A/C, water heater, microwave, cooktop, and 2 refrigerators.) The only breakers I didn't turn on was the range and dishwasher. I was consuming about 8500 watts.

 

All Insteon traffic worked, but was slightly delayed and there was some slight flickering on the keypad's LEDs and dimmer switch LEDs. All lights are CREE LED bulbs and didn't flicker.

 

Once I turned off breakers to everything except the lights, I was only consuming about 500 watts. At this time the CREE LEDs would flicker on Insteon traffic. Turning off idle control helped the flicker.

 

The unit is advertised with TruePower for under 5% THD. I though it would handle Insteon a little better than it did but I'm still happy, as long as I keep a little load on the genset.

If the generator is an electromechanically produced waveform, the 5% THD will be with a certain load only. Usually almost or full load. Also with type the frequency usually wanders somewhat and that make affect Insteon timing.

 

If the generator is an electronically produced waveform (inverter) or co-gen purposes, the 5% THD is usually with a connection to the grid supply that absorbs much of the inverter voltage steps noise.

 

If it a stand alone inverter type, the 5% THD will be at a well loaded  situation. These types have a hard time producing a smooth waveform with certain loads, usually light loads.

[MustangChris04]

Thanks Larry! This is what I assumed when purchasing an non-inverter type generator. I looked for a 10000 watt inverter generator and the only think I could find was purchasing two Honda generators and a parallel kit. I wasn't going to spend $10K on that because at that price I could get a true standby generator, LP or diesel and have pretty clean power.

 

I actually asked Generac at which load the under 5% THD was measured before I purchase and they said the load didn't matter and it would be under 5% at any load. I didn't really believe this because when I asked for supporting documentation or any published literature about this they said they didn't have any.

 

I almost purchased a WEN 13,000 for almost half the price, and their support transferred me to one of their employees that worked on producing the generator and he pulled up their tests while I was on the phone and was very confident that under 5% THD at all loads. Still don't know if I could believe that but he said he was looking right at a chart with the THD measurements throughout the load range.

[larryllix]

Thanks Larry! This is what I assumed when purchasing an non-inverter type generator. I looked for a 10000 watt inverter generator and the only think I could find was purchasing two Honda generators and a parallel kit. I wasn't going to spend $10K on that because at that price I could get a true standby generator, LP or diesel and have pretty clean power.

 

I actually asked Generac at which load the under 5% THD was measured before I purchase and they said the load didn't matter and it would be under 5% at any load. I didn't really believe this because when I asked for supporting documentation or any published literature about this they said they didn't have any.

 

I almost purchased a WEN 13,000 for almost half the price, and their support transferred me to one of their employees that worked on producing the generator and he pulled up their tests while I was on the phone and was very confident that under 5% THD at all loads. Still don't know if I could believe that but he said he was looking right at a chart with the THD measurements throughout the load range.

I would be trying torroids on sensitive circuits. They are easy to slide over the ends of any wire but they may block Insteon signals from passing too.

 

Improvements may take some very educated trial and error using different filter types.. Hopefully one more trial than error though.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[bipto]

I see the same behavior with my Generac XP8000E.  The lights on dimmers will flash with Insteon traffic until the generator approaches about 50% load and then they quiet down.  It's irritating, but better than living in the dark.  Insteon behaves far better on this model than my previous Generac GP series, and neither the devices nor the bulbs seem any worse for it given the limited number of hours they've seen on gen power.  Probably amuses the neighbors...

[jacobs-gc]

I have a 40kw Generac that is 16 years old and have no problems. The generator exercises once a week and during the exercising

the whole house is transferred to the Generac. We can't tell if we're on the utility or the generator, except for the noise the generator

makes. This gives peace of mind that it will work during an outage.

 

All Insteon devices (276 addresses) including heat pumps, pool heat pump, water heaters, stove and  

pool motors all work great and no lights flicker.

 

The Generac is serviced twice a year on a maintenance contract and they do load testing and frequency checks.

Edited September 29, 2017 by jacobs-gc

[cwhogan]

I've been expanding Insteon throughout my house over a couple years.  I've had my Generac 20Kw with Auto Transfer for this entire time.  Only recently did I notice anything running on insteon switches (mostly LED but also incandescent) flash off/on in unison when running on generator power. 

 

I have a PLM (on a PC)  and hub and both are on a UPS so they can receive signals from wireless only devices while the power is off.  It did not occur to me that the flashing was a result of insteon traffic as suggested in this post.

 

After the blackout I tried to reproduce the effect (only once) by manually transferring to generator power.  I did not experience the flashing.  My previous theory was that somehow the transfer switch was still partly connected to the street, and only when street power was down would the problem exist, but I guess I need to try again and ensure there is insteon traffic to test for flashing.

 

Is everyone certain it's the insteon traffic that is causing the flashing?