Guest Digger Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) I already have a box full of X10 modules. Insteon was many steps better than X10. From the talk on forums about Z-Wave it sounds no better than X10.My opinion is that a lot of the Zwave issues are with the controllers. HS was just horrible for Zwave. The ISY is working for my Zwave devices so far. A few more to add etc. maybe this weekend i will play with it more. Zwave is not perfect i am sure. A few concerns about insteon (many may have been said before) One mfg for most device types SH discontinued 7 year warranty so they were probably losing money and have no confidence in their ability to improve quality. SH customer service can be horrid (not all of the time). Inconsistancy in the products. Two keypads next to each other and the led brightness cant be matched. Bleeding of leds on the switches because of a poor light pipe design. I will say the communication quality is better than years ago. Dual band is a must as power line communications at 5v was a disaster. There should be an ability to shut off the power line communications is probably their biggest vulnerability to communications issues from noise picked up on the line. I really cant understand why they did not do that on all dual band devices. I have been told ( probably a rumor) that SMartlabs farms out a lot of their development which contributes to their lack of ability to support their products. While it is common to do so for specific projects most companies will have internal staff capable of supporting the product once it goes to market. It is the cost of doing business to fix bugs etc. But things did improve for Insteon and hopefully that will continue. The above are opinions. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Edited November 8, 2014 by Digger
oberkc Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I agree with digger. I believe the venture into Z-wave is HUGE. The future of controllers, in my mind, is with the integration of various protocols, such as z-wave and insteon and elk, etc.... The network module, for those able or willing to learn, is a major part of this. In fact, I just added a new z-wave module this morning to replace an insteon lampling the was killed when I changed a light bulb(!?). I added the module to my existing network, and to a scene with a bunch of insteon devices. Painless. Flawless.
Guest Digger Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) One observation I have is that UDI tends to be more conservative and methodical where others jump in trying to provide more and more features and models as fast as possible. Concentrating on a core product line is easier to control ans support. That leads to a better customer experience in my opinion. The venture into Zwave by UDI was something I was waiting a long time for. So far i am very satisfied yet its still in its infancy with the ISY. Their approach is the key in my opinion. But Insteon is not dead yet. A controller that is flexible though is the best fir everyone. HS has great ideas and potential but at the moment its a mess and to unreliable for me. The ISY just works. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Edited November 8, 2014 by Digger
paulbates Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 In fact, I just added a new z-wave module this morning to replace an insteon lampling the was killed when I changed a light bulb(!?). I added the module to my existing network, and to a scene with a bunch of insteon devices. Painless. Flawless. Oberkc, can Zwave devices can be added to insteon scenes?
EricK Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Regarding the warranty, I have had a TiVo unit die in 5 months and was offered a refurbished unit as a replacement. I think the warranty was 4 months. A 7 year warranty on electronics is unheard of. Insteon seem to be superior to others in the market, especially if you consider the quality price ratio and buy when there is a sale. If budget is no concern and you want to hire a guy to set up a control 4 system, that is great. Then call him every time you want to change something. (I do know that there is now the ability to do some user programming). Regarding controlling things with your phone, I rarely do this. When I do it is thru Roomie remote to adjust a lighting scene. Otherwise, scenes are automated and I have plenty of kpls around to easily turn something on or off. The hub, if it works, is what the typical user needs to set up some scenes and control them with a phone. If you want more elaborate control then the isy is the way to go. So insteon is not dead. There are some really annoying issues such as the batch of switchlinc devices with a different white color, the cost of custom buttons, etc. however, I do not think I could use another protocol and replace all of my devices and maintain the same level of function.
oberkc Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Oberkc, can Zwave devices can be added to insteon scenes? Worked for me. I did a quick test, but nothing thorough yet.
Guest Digger Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Oberkc, can Zwave devices can be added to insteon scenes? Worked for me. I did a quick test, but nothing thorough yet. I have a few scenes such as night lights, day off, panic etc that are mixed Insteon and Zwave. They work fine for me as far as I can tell. All my nightlights came on at sundown an hour ago etc.
Guest Digger Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) Regarding the warranty, I have had a TiVo unit die in 5 months and was offered a refurbished unit as a replacement. I think the warranty was 4 months. A 7 year warranty on electronics is unheard of. Insteon seem to be superior to others in the market, especially if you consider the quality price ratio and buy when there is a sale. If budget is no concern and you want to hire a guy to set up a control 4 system, that is great. Then call him every time you want to change something. (I do know that there is now the ability to do some user programming). Regarding controlling things with your phone, I rarely do this. When I do it is thru Roomie remote to adjust a lighting scene. Otherwise, scenes are automated and I have plenty of kpls around to easily turn something on or off. The hub, if it works, is what the typical user needs to set up some scenes and control them with a phone. If you want more elaborate control then the isy is the way to go. So insteon is not dead. There are some really annoying issues such as the batch of switchlinc devices with a different white color, the cost of custom buttons, etc. however, I do not think I could use another protocol and replace all of my devices and maintain the same level of function. Actually I think the opposite. Extended warranties and financing are being offered for longer and longer periods as cars, appliances and electronics are becoming more reliable. My kitchen appliances (all Samsung) I purchased last year you could purchase up to a 10 year extended warranty. I purchased an 8 year plan on everything with a zero deductible. So far haven't used it and it may have been a waste time will tell. Cars you can finance for 6 years (maybe more now) and get extended warranties for at least 7 years (maybe more now). My 2004 Civic Hybrid I bought a 7 year 70K extended warranty and I got a free gas cap out of it. A huge waste of money but very profitable for Honda. Extended warranties bring in a lot of money to mfg's and distributors who sell aftermarket. They would not do it if the products were not reliable that they would make a significant margin. Edited November 9, 2014 by Digger
EricK Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Just bought an iPad Air, $400, apple care was 100 to extend the warranty out to two years. Does not include the 50 deductible. I passed this time. Extended warranties are money makers for the manufacturers and third parties. Percentage wise they are a very expensive for the consumer, unless of course you need it. When a three year old Kpl crapped out I was not happy. However, I don't think I would have paid the extra 15 or so on it for an extended warranty.
Teken Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Just bought an iPad Air, $400, apple care was 100 to extend the warranty out to two years. Does not include the 50 deductible. I passed this time. Extended warranties are money makers for the manufacturers and third parties. Percentage wise they are a very expensive for the consumer, unless of course you need it. When a three year old Kpl crapped out I was not happy. However, I don't think I would have paid the extra 15 or so on it for an extended warranty. I think when you compare the price of the apple vs Insteon warranty. The Insteon warranty (value) is easily six times better. One covers your homes critical infrastructure while the other is a single source tool. One extra year for $100.00 for a $400.00 item is just a rip off. $15.00 for something that controls your entire home which covers 7 years is a true value and has real purpose which I guarantee you will see and use during the course of 7 years. I literally missed out on that jewel of a program by two days! If Joe Dada is reading this. Please bring it back as it truly sets Insteon apart from any other maker and adds value to the product line. Given the increased reliability over the years it's simply going to be a nice money maker for the company. All the while offering the consumer a choice and true protection and value. Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions
Guest Digger Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Just bought an iPad Air, $400, apple care was 100 to extend the warranty out to two years. Does not include the 50 deductible. I passed this time. Extended warranties are money makers for the manufacturers and third parties. Percentage wise they are a very expensive for the consumer, unless of course you need it. When a three year old Kpl crapped out I was not happy. However, I don't think I would have paid the extra 15 or so on it for an extended warranty. I agree its a huge money maker fir the mfg. So why did SH drop it? If they were losing money then there are still quality issues with Insteon. I had UPB devices installed for about 7 years. Never had a single fail of the almost 50 devices. That is reasonable quality. Btw i thought the extended warranties were $1.99 per switch not $15. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 I agree its a huge money maker fir the mfg. So why did SH drop it? If they were losing money then there are still quality issues with Insteon. I had UPB devices installed for about 7 years. Never had a single fail of the almost 50 devices. That is reasonable quality. Btw i thought the extended warranties were $1.99 per switch not $15. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk If it was $1.99 for the extended warranty. That is simply incredible and hands down a true value. In that time I have only had a few items fail during the course of six years. So for me perhaps I would not have gotten the value out of it since the two year warranty did in fact cover the expired item. I think this sort of thing helps out a lot of folks who purchase a 1st generation design and their are bugs which I believe would help in that case. But, to be fair most 1st generation devices seem to be impacted by quality issues whether it be cars, microwaves, toasters etc. At $1.99 per unit that is simply a no brainer in my mind to purchase.
Guest Digger Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 If it was $1.99 for the extended warranty. That is simply incredible and hands down a true value. In that time I have only had a few items fail during the course of six years. So for me perhaps I would not have gotten the value out of it since the two year warranty did in fact cover the expired item. I think this sort of thing helps out a lot of folks who purchase a 1st generation design and their are bugs which I believe would help in that case. But, to be fair most 1st generation devices seem to be impacted by quality issues whether it be cars, microwaves, toasters etc. At $1.99 per unit that is simply a no brainer in my mind to purchase. I saw the extended warranty option on a distributors website that was never updated to remove it. Have to try and find it again. Anyway in all fairness i think quality has improved. In the end i will probabky have 30 to 40 intsteon and an equal amount if zwave. Will make a nice test case. And the Zwave is mostly el cheapo Intermatics not Leviton etc. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
EricK Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 15 was a gues as to what market value would be for a kpl 7 year warranty. It would have to be at least 10. $2 would be a no brainier. With an appliance a guy can come out to replace abcontrol board. A bad insteon device probably just goes in the trash.
stusviews Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 A bad insteon device probably just goes in the trash. Mine go to a municipal recycler
EricK Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Stu, we recycle as well. But I am sure bad devices that are returned to smarthome go in the trash.
lilyoyo1 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 The hub and it's related kits were not designed for the true home automation enthusiasts such as those found on here. It was designed to capture the general public who simply wants to control a few lights. While we may question why Insteon or person would go this route it is actually a sound decision. The avg. person does not want to take the time needed to properly learn the ISY nor invest the money in it not knowing if they will use it or not. The hub gets them started at a lower price. While UDI might not get the sale right away, as time passes and they add more devices, their desire for more control grows in which they become a UDI customer eventually. The hub got them started and the ISY completes the cycle.
Teken Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 The hub and it's related kits were not designed for the true home automation enthusiasts such as those found on here. It was designed to capture the general public who simply wants to control a few lights. While we may question why Insteon or person would go this route it is actually a sound decision. The avg. person does not want to take the time needed to properly learn the ISY nor invest the money in it not knowing if they will use it or not. The hub gets them started at a lower price. While UDI might not get the sale right away, as time passes and they add more devices, their desire for more control grows in which they become a UDI customer eventually. The hub got them started and the ISY completes the cycle. I tend to agree to a certain extent. But, the reality is the vendor (Smartlabs) fails to provide the same support for devices they have created in their hardware / software. The question people have to ask then is: How can the actual maker of a device not support all known devices in their realm of control and manufacturer? To that end this impacts the overall customer experience which affects future sales, never mind lost sales. This is about the core competencies of a company and its offerings. If you can't even support what you make how can you expect customers to have belief in the product?? I am hoping Smartlabs in 2015 moves forward with more focus, and commitment in the above and taking the time to communicate their goals.
lilyoyo1 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Adding zwave support was great by UDI. It protects them and us should something happen to Insteon although I really don't see that happening. It also allows us to fill in with devices where Insteon might be lacking or vice versa. Insteon is trying to grow the European market along with quality improvements, and new devices to satisfy their biggest customer (us -US market). Keep in mind, the Insteon catalog was not where it is now when it first started. In time, you will see more growth in other areas. They do not have a google budget. They are limited to where they can spend their dollars. Once the European market grows more, you will see more devices marketed for them. The open nature of Zwave does have benefits of more choice and protection. However it also means more headaches too. Not every zwave device works with each other. You can run into compatibility issues with some things. Generally with insteon and the ISY this is not the issue.
lilyoyo1 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 I do agree that the hub should support every insteon device. However, the people that the hub is marketed to generally will not use those devices or even know about them (smartenit devices). Since the hub came out they have added support for everything else.
Teken Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) Adding zwave support was great by UDI. It protects them and us should something happen to Insteon although I really don't see that happening. It also allows us to fill in with devices where Insteon might be lacking or vice versa. Insteon is trying to grow the European market along with quality improvements, and new devices to satisfy their biggest customer (us -US market). Keep in mind, the Insteon catalog was not where it is now when it first started. In time, you will see more growth in other areas. They do not have a google budget. They are limited to where they can spend their dollars. Once the European market grows more, you will see more devices marketed for them. The open nature of Zwave does have benefits of more choice and protection. However it also means more headaches too. Not every zwave device works with each other. You can run into compatibility issues with some things. Generally with insteon and the ISY this is not the issue. I believe once the International PLM is released you will see a huge adoption rate and increased satisfaction from new and existing customers who can use the ISY Series Controller. This is a huge clinch pin for all parties involved. The reality is a International PLM should have been on the drawing board and put into motion when the International market was considered for future penetration. Once sales start to move and UDI begins to grow beyond their small group I truly believe more outstanding products will be available from them. What really needs to happen is a new ISY Series controller that supports all the current protocols and platforms: X10, Insteon, Zigbee (ALL), Z-Wave, UPB. Edited November 14, 2014 by Teken
larryllix Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 I believe once the International PLM is released you will see a huge adoption rate and increased satisfaction from new and existing customers who can use the ISY Series Controller. This is a huge clinch pin for all parties involved. The reality is a International PLM should have been on the drawing board and put into motion when the International market was considered for future penetration. Once sales start to move and UDI begins to grow beyond their small group I truly believe more outstanding products will be available from them. What really needs to happen is a new ISY Series controller that supports all the current protocols and platforms: X10, Insteon, Zigbee (ALL), Z-Wave, UPB. We need a new ISY that has support for these protocols via Ethernet. Then bridges, for any protocol that comes out in the future, can be produced to support it. We are still talking to our PLMs with serial signals. I see an end to that style coming.
paulbates Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 We need a new ISY that has support for these protocols via Ethernet. Then bridges, for any protocol that comes out in the future, can be produced to support it. We are still talking to our PLMs with serial signals. I see an end to that style coming. That's really what the Insteon Hub is, an Ethernet PLM. It plausible that ISY firmware could be requested to be modified to talk to it (probably need the network module too). It would need a lot of people asking for it. I don't know if that's on the horizon or not. Having said that, my money would be on the new UD PLM, serial or not. Insteon traffic travels in the 2k baud range, bursting to 14.4k baud. It would potentially be more of a wiring advantage than a performance advantage.
MWareman Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 We need a new ISY that has support for these protocols via Ethernet. Then bridges, for any protocol that comes out in the future, can be produced to support it. We are still talking to our PLMs with serial signals. I see an end to that style coming.I remember 'talking' Insteon via a TCP socket to a 'SmartLinc' device, which (unofficially) allowed access to the native messaging stack via a TCP socket. Its a shame that ISY (and most others) never supported this as an option for those that wanted to separate their ISY and PLM with an IP network rather than a serial link.
Teken Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 In the 30 plus years in the industry its safe to say serial communications isn't going anywhere. Serial communications is still alive, kicking, and huge in the industrial world. I am not sure if that's a good thing but the reality is that serial communications has always been the defacto method. There are more and more Ethernet based devices for sure and that is a welcomed sight to see. At this point even before people get into talking about Smartlabs offering Ethernet. Lets focus on building upon their strengths and resolving their weaknesses in areas like communication, feature parity, and making the blasted device field up-gradable! It's only 2014, and 2015 is fast approaching and they won't incorporate a user method to update firmware?? WTF??
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