Is Insteon Dead?

[Guest Digger]

In the 30 plus years in the industry its safe to say serial communications isn't going anywhere. Serial communications is still alive, kicking, and huge in the industrial world.

 

I am not sure if that's a good thing but the reality is that serial communications has always been the defacto method. There are more and more Ethernet based devices for sure and that is a welcomed sight to see.

 

At this point even before people get into talking about Smartlabs offering Ethernet. Lets focus on building upon their strengths and resolving their weaknesses in areas like communication, feature parity, and making the blasted device field up-gradable!

 

It's only 2014, and 2015 is fast approaching and they won't incorporate a user method to update firmware?? WTF?? 

 

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the switches field upgradable.  But they would rather you buy a new switch every year so I doubt they will do it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Digger

[Teken]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the switches field upgradable.  But they would rather you buy a new switch every year so I doubt they will do it.

 

Oh I know and agree with your view about wanting the consumer to replace / upgrade. All I am saying is the device(s) are absolutely upgrade-able but requires a physical connection to the header. The reality is, making some adjustment in the flash EEPROM and some hardware changes would allow the end user to update and address issues and add features.

 

This whole throw away society is not sustainable in the long run.  

[apostolakisl]

Oh I know and agree with your view about wanting the consumer to replace / upgrade. All I am saying is the device(s) are absolutely upgrade-able but requires a physical connection to the header. The reality is, making some adjustment in the flash EEPROM and some hardware changes would allow the end user to update and address issues and add features.

 

This whole throw away society is not sustainable in the long run.  

 

I suspect it would be quite complex to try and update the firmware via the PLC or wireless mode.  As mentioned, a direct plug into the header would easily do it, but that is not really easy since you need special equipment.  A usb could be installed on the switches, but that would add cost and (unless you want your swtiches to have a usb jack showing) require that you at least take the faceplate off and wander about your house with a laptop in hand updating one at a time.  But, personally, I would be sort of OK with that.

Edited November 15, 2014 by apostolakisl

[Teken]

I suspect it would be quite complex to try and update the firmware via the PLC or wireless mode.  As mentioned, a direct plug into the header would easily do it, but that is not really easy since you need special equipment.  A usb could be installed on the switches, but that would add cost and (unless you want your swtiches to have a usb jack showing) require that you at least take the faceplate off and wander about your house with a laptop in hand updating one at a time.  But, personally, I would be sort of OK with that.

 

Given the very small firmware size (maybe less than 500 KB) I don't see this being an issue where this task was completed over power line. Obviously some kind of error correction would need to be in place and a write verify process at the ready. This is done on several of my security devices in my home and at work.

 

So that portion can be done as it is by others.

 

If a physical transfer must be done no need for a USB (ugly) interface. A simple induction port similar to the Apple mag safe could be utilized. 3-8 small little dots at the base under the plate cover is easily hidden.

[Guest Digger]

There are many ways to do it.  Its just probably not something they want to do as what is the payback for them to make the product better if they can just sell you the new one.  But as more and more controllers can do Insteon and Zwave and UPB etc the more competitive it will be for all of the mfg to make their devices updateable.  Doesn't the newest Zwave protocol allow for updating? 

 

At work we are making everything we can flashable.  Its actually cheaper for us as a mfg in the long run.  Have a bug that affects the operation of the product its almost free to offer a downloadable fix.  To have them have to ship it back for a new one?  Well that's just not practical in this day and age of technology.

 

The industry will come around.  The first to really do it (Zwave I suspect) will be the real winners I think.

[larryllix]

In the 30 plus years in the industry its safe to say serial communications isn't going anywhere. Serial communications is still alive, kicking, and huge in the industrial world.

 

I am not sure if that's a good thing but the reality is that serial communications has always been the defacto method. There are more and more Ethernet based devices for sure and that is a welcomed sight to see.

 

At this point even before people get into talking about Smartlabs offering Ethernet. Lets focus on building upon their strengths and resolving their weaknesses in areas like communication, feature parity, and making the blasted device field up-gradable!

 

It's only 2014, and 2015 is fast approaching and they won't incorporate a user method to update firmware?? WTF?? 

We used a lot of serial ports also with electrical grid protection equipment but in the last two decades it was disappearing fast for the same reasons it would on the ISY with multiple PLMs. Terminal servers were not popular, not very standard, and not cheap like routers and switches, the new serial port. The serial port is not even included in  computers for the last ten years. That drives the market eventually.

 

Would we really want a serial port if we had an Insteon / X10 PLM, a Z-Wave PLM, a Zigbee PLM and a UPB PLM connected to our ISY for simultaneous usage ?

 

What now for the ISY or other HA controllers? A serial port smart switch that can pick the appropriate PLM? Multiple serial ports on every HA controller? Not likely the new industry will go backwards on that one when they can drop in an industry standard interface for a few bucks.

 

Why would a manufacturer create all these PLMs to support every HA protocol with a serial port? They wouldn't if only one HA company supported that interface. I would be sure the interchangeable PLMs would be aimed at all HA companies to make their HA controller expandable to any system, an attractive feature for sales. What if we had to connect the Admin Console via serial port? What if we wanted our PLM to connect to two HA controllers with a  serial port interface? 

 

The HA market is becoming popular and beginning to boom. Not locking the public into one expensive system protocol would appeal to the masses much more than a completely disposable mistake in selection.

 

The Ethernet PLM is going to come. It's already on so many devices, now. The SmrtHome Hub is an Ethernet PLM already.

Edited November 15, 2014 by larryllix

[lilyoyo1]

Having the ability to upgrade a switch is a good idea for power users. However giving that option to alot of people has the potential for bricking and destroying the switches. The heavy users on here (ie:Teken, LeeG,etc.) would have no problems updating a switch. However there are many out there who can't even plug the PLM into the proper port. Not only that, you also have to take into account firmware changes can also involve hardware changes. In doing that and having someone update the switch, you could cause problems. 

[Teken]

Having the ability to upgrade a switch is a good idea for power users. However giving that option to alot of people has the potential for bricking and destroying the switches. The heavy users on here (ie:Teken, LeeG,etc.) would have no problems updating a switch. However there are many out there who can't even plug the PLM into the proper port. Not only that, you also have to take into account firmware changes can also involve hardware changes. In doing that and having someone update the switch, you could cause problems. 

 

Agreed on many points: The key thing with such an idea is that the (future) devices are built and designed to do so. This is something that is designed from the ground up and keeps in mind (long term development goals) to ensure hardware changes do not impact the ability to update firmware.

 

Specifically, Smartlabs as over time replaced and upgraded caps, resistors, power supplies, in many devices. All of which are not related or impacted by firmware upgrades. Obviously, the IC that controls the device must be ready to accept such changes but there aren't very many physical items that would stop a person from flashing the hardware unless it was very old.

 

This is why companies that future proof their designs are able to keep updating their hardware and reduce obsolescence for the masses. I know with some of the gear I own (more than 10 years old) the company planned ahead and still is able to upgrade my systems with a very small firmware upgrade.

 

These are the hall marks of a company planning, thinking, and developing for tomorrow and not just for today.

 

The biggest issue is how does one deploy such a scheme that ensure a successful firmware upgrade and reduces the chance of a bricked situation?

 

Based on my personal experience it would encompass a separate process that puts all other devices asleep. This forces COM's to be focused on one device and all others in a state where they are literally off and can not hinder a firmware load.

 

This is one of the steps my device maker has in place.

 

Next, the most proven and reliable method is a direct tethered approach to transfer the firmware. Again, using induction ports similar to the Apple Thunderport, Magsafe, or worse case scenario Lightning *style* port would allow a clean look and I/O.

 

Since the iteration of Low Power Blue Toot 4.0 this is another method and this negates a physical interface and also ensure close proximity is required to upload the firmware. Given the very cheap IC's for Blue Tooth these days its not something that would increase the cost to a device very much.

 

Even if Smartlabs was to provide these devices as a separate *Premium* offering this would at least test the market for acceptance and reliability in the wild.

 

I agree the faint of heart may not be ready or even willing to go down such a path. But, its safe to say tens of thousands of us fall in a small minority of HA (which continues to grow) each year. Which by default separates us from the *Doers* from the I don't care. 

[lilyoyo1]

Smartlabs is always looking at staying up with the market even if it appears they are slow to react sometimes. It is quite possible at some point we could get there. I have a lot of insteon devices myself so am with you in regards to upgrading switches. I try to switch out devices when I see a jump in what the switch does (ie: the different leds and change from 2476 to 2477). Just knowing the general public though (especially moving into walmart and manards) I do question whether it would be a wise decision to do that from a business standpoint.

[blueman2]

I think Insteon is dead within 5-8 years. Simply because they are sole-source provider and do not license to anyone else.  This makes them too expensive and slow to respond to trends Look how long it has been and still no good availability of Insteon door locks!!!! I predict Z-wave will be the winner, unless Google decides to create another standard - which is quite possible.  

 

That said, I think aside from the sole-source issue, Insteon has been a great company.  

Edited November 16, 2014 by blueman2

[larryllix]

I think Insteon is dead within 5-8 years. Simply because they are sole-source provider and do not license to anyone else.

With that logic Intertek would be dead in the water shortly also. I doubt that will happen as most of the appliances in your house are made by the same company under dozens of other names. Second sourcing sounds like a big deal to some but Windows is still alive and kicking.

 

From reading other forums Z-wave has too many problems. Things do change and evolve though.

[oberkc]

There is another sole-source provider that seems to be doing well.  Named after a fruit beginning with the letter "A".

[Teken]

There is another sole-source provider that seems to be doing well. Named after a fruit beginning with the letter "A".

Pretty sure comparing Apple to Smartlabs is equivalent to comparing the Earth to the Sun.

 

Apple does not make anything directly. But is involved in many electronic & software spaces. Whether that be phones, tablets, PC's, music, productivity suite software.

 

They are heavily invested into technology companies from solar to A/V.

 

Apple has a ten year plan in almost all things they do and aspire to compete in.

 

Smartlabs does not compete on any level in any space when the two are compared. Keep in mind before the whole Samsung vs Apple came to light.

 

All of their eggs were indeed in one basket. Currently four companies build, manufacture, and design their equipment which prevents one single point of failure or interruption in LOB.

 

I believe it's safe to say another company should have been selected as a reference point. ️

 

NOTE: People like to refer to the Texas plant as making. The Texas plant only assembles items for a finished product such as the newly released Mac Pro.

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

Edited November 16, 2014 by Teken

[Teken]

With that logic Intertek would be dead in the water shortly also. I doubt that will happen as most of the appliances in your house are made by the same company under dozens of other names. Second sourcing sounds like a big deal to some but Windows is still alive and kicking.

 

From reading other forums Z-wave has too many problems. Things do change and evolve though.

I have been around since DOS. Used every windows OS that Microsoft has released. But it's safe to say the PC market has been on a steady decline for many years.

 

This has been single handily been caused by the introduction of the mobile tablet. Since the release of the ARM processor and the customs designs from Apple.

 

Every chip maker has either suffered massive sales loss or market share. Whether it be TI, Qualcomm, Intel, etc.

 

The windows OS share has steadily fallen YOY. They still hold a firm grip in enterprise because of their Exchange Server OS along with office suites.

 

Z-Wave: It's safe to say the development of this protocol with UDI is still on going. I am pretty sure in the next year or so this platform will be public ready.

 

In the interim, it's fair to say COM's for the ISY Series Controller need more work and diagnostic, reporting, and device support need more development.

 

I am uncertain why there are so many issues with locks, bad COM's, or the endless healing / routing issues.

 

But it's fair to say there is obviously more than one way to develop a controller for Z-Wave. But would think what ever development kit is offered would indicate the basics that are required for hardware support.

 

I for one will sit this Beta trial out until the road map and diagnostics are more fully developed.

 

 

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[stusviews]

X10 started in 1975 and licensed that technology to other manufacturers. That protocol, it seems, is still viable, but barely. OTOH, it's not possible to buy a Somfy motor nor RF controller that isn't made by Somfy. They do not license their technology. They've been around for more that 45 years. Nor does Lutron--and they've been around since 1961.

 

INSTEON is not just alive and kicking, they're kicking dust in their competitors faces. And so is U-D!

 

This is a totally biased opinion

[lilyoyo1]

I think Insteon is dead within 5-8 years. Simply because they are sole-source provider and do not license to anyone else.  This makes them too expensive and slow to respond to trends Look how long it has been and still no good availability of Insteon door locks!!!! I predict Z-wave will be the winner, unless Google decides to create another standard - which is quite possible.  

 

That said, I think aside from the sole-source issue, Insteon has been a great company.  

Too expensive? Have you seen the price compared to some of the other zwave switches? It is competitively priced to the market. Insteon may not have every device out there that zwave has but it also has devices that zwave doesn't have. Zwave coming out the winner? Have you been to costco, walmart, Manards, Bestbuy,etc.? You can find Insteon out there at different places. How many stores can you walk into and find Zwave? There is room in the market for both companies, especially with both showing the ability to kee up with consumer trends. 

[Guest Digger]

I think Insteon is dead within 5-8 years. Simply because they are sole-source provider and do not license to anyone else.  This makes them too expensive and slow to respond to trends Look how long it has been and still no good availability of Insteon door locks!!!! I predict Z-wave will be the winner, unless Google decides to create another standard - which is quite possible.  

 

That said, I think aside from the sole-source issue, Insteon has been a great company.  

 

I think if it came down to it they would lic others before going belly up.  Probably their poor rep for customer service on Insteon and their resale items hurts their bottom line more than anything.  I honestly don't get how they can charge so much for the same items found elsewhere and still sell it if there is no value added.  But something keeps their doors open

[Teken]

I think if it came down to it they would lic others before going belly up.  Probably their poor rep for customer service on Insteon and their resale items hurts their bottom line more than anything.  I honestly don't get how they can charge so much for the same items found elsewhere and still sell it if there is no value added.  But something keeps their doors open

 

I believe what was really telling is in one forum posts a member indicated from an internal staff the amount of Insteon products they move per week, month, year. Its safe to say Insteon provides great profits for Smartlabs / Smarthome. To be fair ( as I have been known to cast the first rock ) 

 

Insteon has quite a few devices that are much lower in price then competitive vendors. Another key thing worth affirming is that Insteon bar non has the best looking and feeling devices. Having played with quite a few UPB, Leviton, GE, devices which look like crap and feel even worse.

 

The nod has to go to Insteon for that upscale look and feel.

 

I am not a personal fan of their HUB but who ever is in charge of the Phone App, and the interface for the HUB has some great design flare and taste. Not too sure if this is just a Apple *look & feel* that people copy but I will take that over the interface of the ISY any day.

 

If it wasn't for the fact the UI just works its a simple fact I would have used another UI interface straight away. As the UI is like working on something from the 80's.   

[blueman2]

By the way, does anyone know the story behind the ICON brand?  Was that a wholly owned company by INSTEON, or was this an example of licensing the INSTEON technology to another company?  At least with ICON, we had some options for lower cost switches and devices.  

 

In the end, it comes down to competition.  Even a sole-source provider can win if they have a much better product than the competition (as was pointed out with Apple). But with Google making a BIG play in this space for the "Internet of Everything", I really do not see Insteon being a long term player.  

 

Hey, maybe Google/Nest needs to buy Insteon and UDI?  

 

In any case, I also agree that there is no current better alternative for me.  I continue to use INSTEON and will for the foreseeable future.  It works, and it has the best controller on the market supporting it (ISY).  I am also a realist and believe INSTEON will fall by the wayside within a decade.  And I am OK with that.  My devices and ISY will still be working and serving me well.  

Edited November 16, 2014 by blueman2

[Teken]

By the way, does anyone know the story behind the ICON brand?  Was that a wholly owned company by INSTEON, or was this an example of licensing the INSTEON technology to another company?  At least with ICON, we had some options for lower cost switches and devices.  

 

In the end, it comes down to competition.  Even a sole-source provider can win if they have a much better product than the competition (as was pointed out with Apple). But with Google making a BIG play in this space for the "Internet of Everything", I really do not see Insteon being a long term player.  

 

Hey, maybe Google/Nest needs to buy Insteon and UDI?  

 

In any case, I also agree that there is no current better alternative for me.  I continue to use INSTEON and will for the foreseeable future.  It works, and it has the best controller on the market supporting it (ISY).  I am also a realist and believe INSTEON will fall by the wayside within a decade.  And I am OK with that.  My devices and ISY will still be working and serving me well.  

 

The Icon line was dropped to increase profits plain and simple. It was also to reduce dual offerings which competed with the major Insteon line up.

 

Its safe to say it was profit before people, but that is just plain business.

 

With the ever expanding presence of Insteon in retail, on line, and brick & mortar establishments. Smartlabs is still on a good track to make in roads and remain strong & profitable.

[Teken]

In the end, it comes down to competition.  Even a sole-source provider can win if they have a much better product than the competition (as was pointed out with Apple). But with Google making a BIG play in this space for the "Internet of Everything", I really do not see Insteon being a long term player.  

 

Hey, maybe Google/Nest needs to buy Insteon and UDI?  

 

 

 

 

I believe you're giving Google too much credit with respect to them taking over the market in the HA space. I could list out all of their business failures and ventures in 10 minutes but I digress.

 

The problem with Google is no long term plan or the having the ability to stick it out. Case in point their energy monitoring play thing web site. Microsoft was in this same space more than 10 years ago with energy monitoring where did that go?

 

In the toilet like they have for Windows ME, Vista, Windows 8. Never mind their complete failure of the Surface tablet which cost them 100 million dollars in write offs which they literally gave away to schools for the sole purpose to penetrate the education space in hopes of taking it away from Apple.

 

The only real plan Google has is to monetize your information and track your behavior in hopes of turning a profit. It's apparent there are more sheep in the world then people willing to do things on their own. I am more curious to see how this partnership with Microsoft / Smartlabs will pan out.

 

Its safe to say Microsofts Nokia purchase was a flop and another boat anchor to their bottom line. 

[EricK]

I think a limitation to home automation is the consumer. The average person cannot change out a light switch nor do they want to pay someone to come to their home to do so. I could have a control 4 system but I like the diy aspect of insteon. I don't want to have to rely on a "guy". I dont mind buying all of my equipment from a single vendor, smarthome, since I know the devices are compatible, and they have stood by their products.

So I don't think every home will have smart switches like they do a tablet or pc any time soon.

[blueman2]

 

The problem with Google is no long term plan or the having the ability to stick it out. 

 

I typically agree with you, but I have to disagree on this one.  This is not a problem. It is a huge asset.  Google knows the value of trying new ideas and "failing fast".  Being willing to kill an idea that is not working out is critical to success in a fast moving industry.  It frees up resources to look at other new ideas.  

 

As for long term thinking, I think Google is one of the world leaders in this area.  And "Internet of Things" is one of their key long term concepts. That is not to say Home Automation will end up being a key element, but my guess is that it will be.  

 

But I am probably going off topic here!  

[Brian H]

The Icon product line was a less feature and cost. One year warranty modules.

No pass through AC outlet on the front cover of plug in modules.

Made by the same factory who also make the full featured Insteon line.

 

When the seven year extended warranty could be added to the Insteon line {now no longer an option}. The Icon was not sold with an optional seven year warranty.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Brian H

[Teken]

I typically agree with you, but I have to disagree on this one.  This is not a problem. It is a huge asset.  Google knows the value of trying new ideas and "failing fast".  Being willing to kill an idea that is not working out is critical to success in a fast moving industry.  It frees up resources to look at other new ideas.  

 

As for long term thinking, I think Google is one of the world leaders in this area.  And "Internet of Things" is one of their key long term concepts. That is not to say Home Automation will end up being a key element, but my guess is that it will be.  

 

But I am probably going off topic here!  

 

First love the Avatar and screen name! 

 

I do agree as a successful company you need to identify products / services that are bleeding you out. My point is that I have watched from a far both extremely large companies (Microsoft / Google) enter a space put around for a few years then jump ship.

 

One could say perhaps the market and the demand was too low and they were way too early in entering the space. That is one thing I have to concede and perhaps this new effort to enter the HA space will bring back the energy monitoring aspect that both were champions for.

 

At the end of the day time is the victor as it has always been.

 

Lets see how it all unfolds and perhaps we all will be on the winning end of things!