Wingsy Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I posted my story about this over in the Insteon forums but I think I'll see what I get here. First, I've got a new ISY994i (4.2.18) and a couple of motion sensors (2842-222). I'm new to this field but not to electronics & software, being an electronics engineer for years and years. When setting all this stuff up and tinkering with it, what got my curiosity tickled was that I somehow acquired a low battery condition in one of the MS, as shown in the ISY Admin Console. It would not go away, even after taking out the battery and putting it back after a few minutes, or after doing a factory reset on the device. The only way was to remove the device from the ISY and add it back. Then I hooked it up to a power supply, starting at 9.0v and slowly ramping it down .2 volts at a time, waiting about 5 minutes between changes. It sent a low-battery ON signal at 7.0v, observed in the Admin Console and also triggering a program to turn on an ON/OFF module. I also tested my 2nd MS and it triggered a low-batt signal at 7.2v. So far, so good. I disconnected the MS, set the voltage back to 9v and reconnected it to the 9v supply after about 3 minutes. I was expecting to see a Low-Battery OFF signal sent, but no. Tapping the set button - no. Power off, wait, then reconnect - no. Factory reset and try again - no. Pushing SET 7 times - no. And then, to add to my frustration, I ran the voltage back down to 7v and waited - no Low-Battery ON signal sent either! Now neither one of my MS will send another low battery signal, and neither has ever sent a low-battery OFF signal. It's like it's a once-in-a-lifetime event. I spoke with tech support at Insteon and about all they could tell me was that if I see a double flash of the LED with motion then the battery is low. Just 1 flash and it's OK. But I want to be notified, AND I plan on turning the LEDs off so the MS won't draw attention to itself. It looks more & more like I'll have to add a few outside outlets and power these things with a regulated 9v adapter. My contractor says those outlets will be $30 a pop (building a new log home starting in Feb). This home automation thing is mounting up. If you've ever seen a Low-Battery OFF signal from your MS please tell me how you did it. And another thing - how do you force the Low-Battery "ON" status to "OFF" in the Admin Console, if it's even possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Very happy you decided to share your experience here as I am sure you will get some interesting feed back. As an aside thank you for taking the time for testing and reporting back your experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 In order to reset the low battery signal in the ISY you need to query the low battery node after the low battery condition has been corrected. In lieu of an AC supply you can use lithium batteries which have a much longer life span. The MS does not send a low battery off signal. It's possible that with all that you were doing you may have corrupted the MS firmware. If you're still having issues then do a factory reset on the MS and you should be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 In addition, many of us have found that the sensors generally only send one low batt notice. If the ISY misses that due to traffic or poor comms, you have missed your only notice that the battery is low. Some of us have taken to building watchdog programs that timeout after a period of no communication from a sensor knowing that we should see motion or dusk/dawn messages on a fairly regular basis. If the watchdog times out, we then assume low batt and take appropriate action. I highly suspect that a newer version of the sensors will come out with a heartbeat function like many of the other wireless devices now shipping. This may include the ability to determine battery status as well. Hope this helps. -Xathros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingsy Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 In order to reset the low battery signal in the ISY you need to query the low battery node after the low battery condition has been corrected. In lieu of an AC supply you can use lithium batteries which have a much longer life span. The MS does not send a low battery off signal. It's possible that with all that you were doing you may have corrupted the MS firmware. If you're still having issues then do a factory reset on the MS and you should be good to go. Thanks Techman, you answered the last part of my question. That does indeed reset the status to OFF in the ISY. After that, I lowered the voltage to 7v (after being at 9v for hours) and waited a few minutes then triggered motion - I got a double-flash so the unit thinks its battery is low. As usual I got no low-battery signal sent to the ISY. Held SET pressed to get it active and queried again, no change. I reseted to factory defaults, disconnected power for 10 minutes, connected to 9v, waited 5 minutes, then lowered it to 6.5v and waited some more. Still nothing. (I've done this before.) I'm about convinced that sending a low battery status really is a once-in-a-lifetime event. I'm starting to suspect that to prevent multiple low-battery statuses being sent, the software saves a "low battery status sent" flag in nonvolatile memory, and this flag is never cleared even during a factory reset. Something like that. You might think I'm getting all OCD'ed over this, and I probably am. I like my stuff to "just work", and if this were my product it would never leave the bench until it did, even for a secondary feature such as this. (Something else I've noticed. Once a low battery is detected - indicated by a double-flash of the LED on motion - you have to remove power for about a minute to reset this, or it will continue to double-flash even after installing a fresh 9v battery.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In all cases the low battery flag will trip if the voltage threshold is met. Upon battery replacement this flag is reset and is not a one time event. Tens of thousands of these units have been sold and installed and it does work. During my testing the low battery flag was tripped at 7.50 volts. I have another one that just tripped two days ago and will report back the voltage when I can remove it. NOTE: The sensing circuit may not react to a sudden drop in voltage. Based on a quick test it appears the circuit has some logic to determine a threshold and how long it remains before tripping the low battery node alert. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/14203-a-better-ms-low-battery-program/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingsy Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 NOTE: The sensing circuit may not react to a sudden drop in voltage. Based on a quick test it appears the circuit has some logic to determine a threshold and how long it remains before tripping the low battery node alert. In my initial test it took about 30 seconds at low voltage before I got the event. Also in my initial test I reduced the voltage very slowly, taking over 30 minutes to go from 8.5v to 7v at .2v per step every 5 minutes. I'll try that again. But even reducing the voltage rather quickly the MS does recognize the low voltage since it starts its double flash on motion when it hits 7v, just no event is transmitted. If these MS are working as advertised for you then there must be something that I'm doing in my test that conflicts with what the firmware is looking for. I was expecting it to be something like: If battery<7.2v and battery_status= not low then set battery_status=low and transmit status. If battery>8.0v and battery_status=low then set battery_status= not low and transmit status. But evidently it's not that simple. I wonder what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Removed information that was apparently not relevant even though "But evidently it's not that simple. I wonder what's going on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 This function does not exist. If battery>8.0v and battery_status=low then set battery_status= not low and transmit status. The Motion Sensor sends a Low batt message when battery is low. Installing a new battery does not generate another message on the Low batt Group. Query the Low Batt node (which does not send anything to the motion sensor) to have the ISY reset the Low Batt node to Off. LeeG, I believe the OP is simply explaining how he envision it to operate based on a program logic. His concern and problem is only that these devices no longer send a low battery warning based on his lengthy voltage drops to various MS units. OP: I would probably hard reset the device a few times and report back. I have more than 12 of these units in various years, firmware, hardware, and they all operate fine in terms of low battery alerts. Outside of the earlier v1.X MS the v2.X are very reliable and rock solid devices. I purchased four more during the X-MAS season special so will test a few of them and report back if I see odd behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In my initial test it took about 30 seconds at low voltage before I got the event. Also in my initial test I reduced the voltage very slowly, taking over 30 minutes to go from 8.5v to 7v at .2v per step every 5 minutes. I'll try that again. But even reducing the voltage rather quickly the MS does recognize the low voltage since it starts its double flash on motion when it hits 7v, just no event is transmitted. If these MS are working as advertised for you then there must be something that I'm doing in my test that conflicts with what the firmware is looking for. I was expecting it to be something like: If battery<7.2v and battery_status= not low then set battery_status=low and transmit status. If battery>8.0v and battery_status=low then set battery_status= not low and transmit status. But evidently it's not that simple. I wonder what's going on. For your kind reference the two MS tripped at 7.50 volts for me. I am going to change out the one in the office and report back the voltage. It won't be accurate because I should have taken the battery out straight away and measured it to truly know what the threshold was at. It has been more than three days since the alert came in and its been activating lights during that period so its going to be lower when I pull it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Surprisingly this MS tripped at a higher level of 7.67 VDC. There was some talk in another forum that they increased the low limit to ensure plenty of time to change out the sensor. As leaving the MS at a critical battery state caused the MS to send constant ON commands which if attached to something critical like a GDO would not be a good place to be. This is the one from the office taken down just now and measure with my Fluke meter: I almost got 5-6 months out of this high traffic area MS as can be seen by the install date. These were blow outs at Costco and did not offer the 10 year battery guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 These are the eight packs I scooped up for $6.XX at Costco last year and decided to buy ten sleeves. These are the older packs I am going through now with an expiration of 2018. This is the current voltage of these 2018 batteries before I label and install. Showing 9.52 VDC so its pretty much full for a alkaline battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingsy Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 One last post on this topic and that's it for me. I did 2 factory resets, hooked it up to 9v for several days, and then this morning started lowering the voltage 0.2v per step (like I did on my initial test) and waiting 10 minutes between steps. It's been at 6.8v for over an hour now and no low battery status was ever sent. The MS does double-flash with motion so at least some part of its brain thinks the battery is low. Rather than dealing with it I've purchased 5 regulated 9v power modules and soldered 9v battery clips to the wire ends and will use that where I install the MSs. It's for a new construction so I'll have outlets installed nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The motion sensor should not double flash with motion. Its sounds like the link database did not restore after a factory reset. Right click on Sensor node and select Restore Device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The motion sensor should not double flash with motion. Its sounds like the link database did not restore after a factory reset. Right click on Sensor node and select Restore Device. According to "Quick Start Guide INSTEON® Motion Sensor Models: 2842-222, 2842-422, 2842-522" In the troubleshooting chart. (and the help tech may have just read the manual and echoed it) "LED is double flashing upon motion Low battery warning—replace with fresh battery" But as LeeG stated, the ISY notification may be missing due to lack of database synchronisation. Try his suggestion and then ramp test the signal again. Many would love to hear more results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Surprisingly this MS tripped at a higher level of 7.67 VDC. There was some talk in another forum that they increased the low limit to ensure plenty of time to change out the sensor. As leaving the MS at a critical battery state caused the MS to send constant ON commands which if attached to something critical like a GDO would not be a good place to be. This is the one from the office taken down just now and measure with my Fluke meter: I almost got 5-6 months out of this high traffic area MS as can be seen by the install date. These were blow outs at Costco and did not offer the 10 year battery guarantee. The actual "under load" battery voltage will be slightly lower, not that the MS should present that much load, but may lower the actual running voltage somewhat, especially on a weak battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingsy Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 The actual "under load" battery voltage will be slightly lower, not that the MS should present that much load, but may lower the actual running voltage somewhat, especially on a weak battery. At 9v, the idle current is 36uA. When the motion sensor is triggered it draws 6ma, with a couple of short peaks to 12ma (estimate about .5sec each), and after about 3 seconds the current drops to idle level. During the timeout phase this 36uA fluctuates slightly as motion occurs in front of the sensor, rising to around 80uA with lots of motion. When the MS is again triggered due to timeout the current again rises to 6-12ma for a few seconds then goes back to idle level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbenito Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Hi there, I do not own a ISY but I do own the 2842-222 motion sensor and use it with a Insteon PLM and OpenHAB software. During the OpenHAB InteonPLM binding development I did same test as Wingsy reported so Bernd (the developer) could prepare the binding to account on low battery message. We were able to find the low battery message once and only once as Wingsy also reported. Bernd and I conclude that this message was not reliable enough since it would be never triggered a second time (at least before changing battery - but in my case never means never as for Wingsy). We expected that a low battery message was to be sent just after an Open/Close message while the battery is low, this would account for the case were controller (ISY or Insteon HouseLinc or OpenHAB or...) have lost last one. But no! So Bernd found a workaround. Every time Motion Sensor is triggered it awake and send a OPEN message. For a little while is possible to communicate with the device before it get back to sleep, so in this little moment Bernd binding query the device and get back a message containing battery level (0...100 - 92 means 9.2V) and light level (0...XXX - I am not sure if 100 or 255 but I guess 100 meaning 100%). This way, every time the sensor send Open or Close events, OpenHAB will query it back asking for battery level and light level. Now, I don't know how can one customize ISY and if it is possible to tweak it to do same thing but hopefully in the worst case, the ISY developers would be glad to upgrade support and query battery (at least I would like this kind of support). For future reference, here is some log of my sensor: XX.XX.XX -> InsteonPLM address YY.YY.YY -> Motion Sensor address InsteonPLM sends command out: writing (500): OUT:Cmd:0x62|toAddress:YY.YY.YY|messageFlags:0x1F=DIRECT:3:3|command1:0x2E|command2:0x00|userData1:0x00|userData2:0x00|userData3 :0x00|userData4:0x00|userData5:0x00|userData6:0x00|userData7:0x00|userData8:0x00|userData9:0x00|userData10:0x00|userData11:0x00|userData12:0x00|userData13:0x00|userData14:0xD2| InstonPLM receives back: got msg: IN:Cmd:0x50|fromAddress:YY.YY.YY|toAddress:XX.XX.XX|messageFlags:0x2B=ACK_OF_DIRECT:3:2|command1:0x2E|command2:0x00| got msg: IN:Cmd:0x51|fromAddress:YY.YY.YY|toAddress:XX.XX.XX|messageFlags:0x1B=DIRECT:3:2|command1:0x2E|command2:0x00|userData1:0x01|userDat a2:0x01|userData3:0x80|userData4:0x01|userData5:0x80|userData6:0x0E|userData7:0x00|userData8:0x7B|userData9:0x0E|userData10:0x02|userData11:0x1C|userData12:0x5C|userData13:0x00|userData14:0xD2| got battery level 92 got light level 28 Light level was sent by motion sensor in the 11st userData byte payload while 12nd byte is the battery level· Happy hacking Benito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbenito Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Ah, forgot to say that same query did not work with 2845-222 Hidden Door Sensor. The sensor answers back but userData11 is always 00 (probably not used in this case) while other bytes bring back data. I still don't know how to query those but since they have heartbeat it is not a very urgent thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hi jrbenito, Thanks for the feedback. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo.Automates Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 It would be awesome for the ISY to see the light levels and battery levels! Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbenito Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ah, forgot to say that same query did not work with 2845-222 Hidden Door Sensor. The sensor answers back but userData11 is always 00 (probably not used in this case) while other bytes bring back data. I still don't know how to query those but since they have heartbeat it is not a very urgent thing. I was researching this and found on dev documents for this sensor that it returns battery data on userData04 field instead of userData11 as the motion sensor. It has also a preset for low battery warning (1,25V) and this is configurable. Nice to know because LSD Li-Ion batteries have 1.2V when charged and 1.1 as discharged state, configuring the preset would be possible to delay the heartbeat low battery warning. I will test this and let you know results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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