416to305 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Not sure if this is the best place for it, but I see ads for Wink and Quirky all the time now especially at Home Depot (makes sense!) but like a LOT now. They have some pretty nice stuff, like a $300 LCD touch panel controller, and a $60 light switch which is really nice looking. Wink I believe does a few different protocols as it says Z-Wave, Quirky, ZigBee etc but it's hard to know what devices use what protocol as they just say they are for Wink, so could be any. Like my Schlage door lock says for Wink, but it's of course just Z-Wave, but it doesn't seem to really say for their touch panels or light switches, or even the new Cree LED connected bulbs for $15 that work with Wink, it doesn't say anything about Z-Wave. Seems like it's getting more popular, as on news sites even reporting on CES there's so much mention of Wink and other home automation technologies, but they never say Z-Wave or Insteon. There's just a lot of inexpensive and nice looking products made for Wink so seems interesting.
oberkc Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I have suspected that if a device is certified Z-wave capable, you will be able to find this noted somewhere on the package. Failure to have this noted would make me suspect that a given iris, wink, or quirky device uses zigbee.
Teken Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 The bulb uses Zigbee HA protocol. I am pretty happy to see more Zigbee devices come to market because it appeared to me like it was abandoned and only the energy aspect was being pushed. UDI thus far, has not indicated they will support such a HA protocol given the lack of members using it or devices supporting it. I always find it interesting some (nobody company) coming out of no where has such massive support and product development when compared to existing companies like Insteon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
416to305 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Yeah was just at Home Depot here in Toronto and they have TONS of automation stuff now. All the boxes say Zigbee on them. It makes me a little concerned and I think I'm going to slow down adding things to my network because all of the Cree and GE connected bulbs are $15-19 compared to $35 for Insteon's LED bulb and even their switches and keypads are less expensive. Makes me nervous investing in Insteon, as I don't think it is going anywhere, but they will have to reduce their pricing if they want to compete with all of these readily available devices at Home Depot and Lowes. It seems like now home automation is finally starting to take off, so I think it's better to slow down because a year from now pricing might be much less on Insteon stuff. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
416to305 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Just to add, I think Insteon's issue is the product selection. The thermostat is ugly, the door locks don't do status and require other components to make them work, there is no LCD touch pad keypads, the GarageLinc door opener is garbage, etc. I think where they XL is with lighting as you have so much control over it. The benefit to these other systems is that they have so much selection, tons of door locks, thermostats, pool controllers, things like that that appeal to more people. For me I'm more about the lighting, having scenes where certain lights come on and go off, things like that so I think Insteon is way better there. It's when you want to do further integration that it gets harder, like Vera sucks but I mean check their App Store. Literally a plugin for everything like Hue, Sonos etc which all add them as devices on the Vera and look like they are native devices. Vs having to use the network resource module of ISY with variables to try and accomplish the same thing. ISY is the best, but most people aren't going to be interested in using it compared to the Wink I think because it's just too complex. It's great for us, people that are into HA. But for someone like my parents if they wanted to just control their lights or do something similar, I would definitely be telling them to buy the wink or even the hub, just because it would be so much easier (assuming of course I'm not programming it for them). That's a bad example though, I have my parents come to visit and they think it's crazy how much money I have spent on automation, they are like I have that too at home, it's called getting off your *** and hitting the light switch lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I don't know how to edit on my phone lol. Meant where they excel not XL. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cfreeland Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Could the 994i with the network module controle the wink hub? Vera now has a plug in to do exactly that and currently at lows if you buy just 2 GE link bulbs the Wink hub is only $20. It is worth it just to controle the GE Link and Cree Connected bulbs, plus it controls Lutron Casita switches and dimmers too. Wink has radios for z-wave, Zigbee, Bluetooth LE and Lutron Clear Connect, if someone could do a plugin, then Insteon could be added to the mix.
Teken Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Could the 994i with the network module controle the wink hub? Vera now has a plug in to do exactly that and currently at lows if you buy just 2 GE link bulbs the Wink hub is only $20. It is worth it just to controle the GE Link and Cree Connected bulbs, plus it controls Lutron Casita switches and dimmers too. Wink has radios for z-wave, Zigbee, Bluetooth LE and Lutron Clear Connect, if someone could do a plugin, then Insteon could be added to the mix. That would be a great bridge to another HA protocol for sure! I second that as well if someone is willing to develop a plugin that can be interfaced with the network module that would be most excellent. On Topic: Right now I am taking a back seat and watching from afar. There are going to be lots of new products and manufactures hitting the HA space in 2015. You are also going to see a few leave the HA space also. I am interested in seeing how this whole Apple Home Kit shakes out and how 3rd party Dev's get this integrated with one another.
416to305 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 That's the single problem I have with the ISY, the network resource, while decent, isn't really a good substitution to the type of plugins you get for Vera. I mean you add the Hue plugin to Vera, and the Hue lights appear like all your other lights, the Vera treats them no differently. It's too clunky with the ISY, making variables to be like if this one is 0 that means the device is off, if it's 1 that means it's on and so on. Like I have it working fine with my Hue lights now, but if anyone turns them on or off using the app and not the ISY, then it has no idea of their status. I'm basically sitting back as well, as all I see non stop is Wink, and even on the products like my Schlage lock, the home depot website says nothing about Z-Wave, they just go on about "Compatible with Wink - Needs Wink Hub" type thing.
Teken Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 That's the single problem I have with the ISY, the network resource, while decent, isn't really a good substitution to the type of plugins you get for Vera. I mean you add the Hue plugin to Vera, and the Hue lights appear like all your other lights, the Vera treats them no differently. It's too clunky with the ISY, making variables to be like if this one is 0 that means the device is off, if it's 1 that means it's on and so on. Like I have it working fine with my Hue lights now, but if anyone turns them on or off using the app and not the ISY, then it has no idea of their status. I'm basically sitting back as well, as all I see non stop is Wink, and even on the products like my Schlage lock, the home depot website says nothing about Z-Wave, they just go on about "Compatible with Wink - Needs Wink Hub" type thing. Your reply mimics pretty much what I hear from lots of new people who get the ISY. The system does not have a very intuitive UI when complex programming is required. I believe most of us have been accustomed to a simple Windows click and go approach for years. UDI has struggled to make it as easy as possible but *state machines* with out a friendly UI will never take on the market enmass with such a crude interface. As much as I gripe about the Smartlabs controllers. They have been able to release very clean, and over all a user interface that is easy to manage and use. In 2015, a user should not have to think for hours how to make something turn on / off given a specific condition. One of the key elements is a simple calendar. Just this one simple element would resolve countless headaches and programming issues for tens of thousands of people around NA. I hope very much a calendar widget will be included in 2015. Because all of the calendar programs from the various smart people in this forum, even though great in their own right. Requires too much time, effort, and crap to manage.
416to305 Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 I don't even know if it's the interface that is the problem as I find the interface is great and to the point. We just need damn virtual devices so that we can use the network module to control other systems, but have those work and act like any other device, instead of writing a program that turns my One light on from the devices drop down but then turns other devices on by changing a variable to 1 etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I have been looking at the Wink Hub as a way to control ZigBee, Zwave, and almost every other device that isn't Insteon. At $50 on the shelf at every Home Depot it sure blows the doors off the PLM and does so much more. From what I can figure it has an app that sets it all up with a great GUI for HA. How detailed or smart it is remains to be seen yet. They are advertising it as one device controls it all. I hope to land one shortly for some Hue control (listed device) and it supports the RESTful interface as well as JSON. http://docs.wink.apiary.io/#arestfulservice
oberkc Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 While this is not the first time such a concern is mentioned, winks, iris, hub, and all that stuff is a no-go for me from the start. I don't care how easy they are to use or what they do or to what they connect. If a device requires access to external "cloud" services for core functionality, I am not interested.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Right now I pretty much have my HA where I want to be (aside from probably returning 2 Hue lights as I just realized I spent $700 on Hue lights in the past couple weeks and while they are nice, I think that's pretty gross) so luckily don't need more Insteon gear yet. There's some light's I'd like to automate but not urgent, or was going to switch from Z-Wave ones to Insteon (the Z-Wave have a fixed ramp rate which makes them look like they aren't turning off for 1-2 seconds as I have LED bulbs). The LED bulbs from these companies are really inexpensive now, so what I'd like to see is what their switches come out at. There's the $60 Tapt switch which looks pretty awesome, but I'd like to see if Cree or GE or the others making the $19 LEDs come out with wall switches. As if they are the same price, or $29 even $39, it's still less than Switchlinc, so will be interesting to see how things go.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 While this is not the first time such a concern is mentioned, winks, iris, hub, and all that stuff is a no-go for me from the start. I don't care how easy they are to use or what they do or to what they connect. If a device requires access to external "cloud" services for core functionality, I am not interested. Just curious what does the Wink need in the cloud? I haven't looked at it at all, but you're saying if it's not connected to the Internet, it can't even run timer programs to turn lamps on or off? Or what kind of core functions are you referring to? I prefer my devices cloud connected if it means I can buy a new one and have everything be on it automatically and so on as well as easier to access remotely if no Static IP. I'd love if the ISY would do auto backups to the cloud so that when you buy a new unit you can just restore it, as I dont' think I've ever thought to do a manual backup. If it needed the cloud to run programs or turn lights and such on, then that's a bit more of a pain as that's one reason I love Insteon, how KPLs can control Scenes and so on even if the ISY is dead.
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Just curious what does the Wink need in the cloud? I haven't looked at it at all, but you're saying if it's not connected to the Internet, it can't even run timer programs to turn lamps on or off? Or what kind of core functions are you referring to? I prefer my devices cloud connected if it means I can buy a new one and have everything be on it automatically and so on as well as easier to access remotely if no Static IP. I'd love if the ISY would do auto backups to the cloud so that when you buy a new unit you can just restore it, as I dont' think I've ever thought to do a manual backup. If it needed the cloud to run programs or turn lights and such on, then that's a bit more of a pain as that's one reason I love Insteon, how KPLs can control Scenes and so on even if the ISY is dead. From what I can see with my short read last night the cloud is needed for higher level logic setup and remote access as is the ISY. As a bridge it will extend the ISY Web interface via LAN many devices. I don't see "the cloud" is needed once set up. Here is a pictorial list of devices they have interfaced to so far. http://www.wink.com/products/ Good intro deal "Spend $75 on other products to get a free Wink HUB or $50 off a Wink Relay"
oberkc Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Perhaps I misunderstand the role of the remote services in these devices, but my understanding is that many of these latest systems require the cloud for logic, timers, adding new devices, etc.... Without the cloud, I did not think they could even be set up or accessed. The hub, I understood, cannot be accessed with the smarthome servers. Clearly, insteon scenes work independent of the cloud in all cases, but I was under the perception that connection do devices like the nest thermostat went through the cloud always. But, these are understanding based not on first-hand experience. I recognize that my understanding may be wrong. The ISY requires none of that. Logic setup and execution is done locally. Adding devices...the same. Furthermore, I don't need anyone's servers to control remotely. I connect directly via IP address and port number. I have full control without any external services from UDI or anyone else other than my ISP. Try that with your hub or or wink or iris. Obviously, I rely on UDI for software updates. If UDI quits the business for some reason, then I lose hope of adding new models of devices should I desire to add in the future, but my existing system keeps working for as long as it lasts. Bottom line...if the cloud services go down, does your system quit working, or does it lose some level of functionality with your existing devices? With the ISY, the answer is NO! That is the way I want it.
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Perhaps I misunderstand the role of the remote services in these devices, but my understanding is that many of these latest systems require the cloud for logic, timers, adding new devices, etc.... Without the cloud, I did not think they could even be set up or accessed. The hub, I understood, cannot be accessed with the smarthome servers. Clearly, insteon scenes work independent of the cloud in all cases, but I was under the perception that connection do devices like the nest thermostat went through the cloud always. But, these are understanding based not on first-hand experience. I recognize that my understanding may be wrong. The ISY requires none of that. Logic setup and execution is done locally. Adding devices...the same. Furthermore, I don't need anyone's servers to control remotely. I connect directly via IP address and port number. I have full control without any external services from UDI or anyone else other than my ISP. Try that with your hub or or wink or iris. Obviously, I rely on UDI for software updates. If UDI quits the business for some reason, then I lose hope of adding new models of devices should I desire to add in the future, but my existing system keeps working for as long as it lasts. Bottom line...if the cloud services go down, does your system quit working, or does it lose some level of functionality with your existing devices? With the ISY, the answer is NO! That is the way I want it. I hear ya' and definitely agree with not liking the cloud dependence, but to access your ISY requires some DDNS service, IF your router/modem gets disconnected and receives a new IP address from the ISP. You will not know what the new IP address is without some cloud service. This is what I was referring to with the ISY. This was also the basis of my ask to make the external IP address for ISY accessible so that power up could send a notification to the user what it was. No DDNS cloud should be required for any home devices.
bernieb Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Not sure if this is posted somewhere else here on this forum, but here's a tutorial to interface the wink hub with a Raspberry Pi. This is done with OpenHab. Not sure if a plugin could be done, io_guy may be able to tell. But some communication can be done with the network module https://electronichamsters.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/hacking-the-wink-hub-to-work-with-openhab-for-local-control/
oberkc Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 but to access your ISY requires some DDNS service I lived without DDNS service for several years, and accessed remotely. But....point taken. I am not sure I think of DDNS service in the same terms as a cloud service hosted by a single company that would be extinct were the company to go OB. Rather I think of it more like the core internet service. I am comfortable assuming that the internet, itself, and DDNS will be around for the foreseeable future.
paulbates Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Another thing to think about is that cloud is an approach and not a specific technology. Companies can choose a cloud approach and need to design their products properly around it. Its no better or worse than the way it was designed and implemented. If a in-my-house technology product has an external cloud dependency, I would look at it as a design problem, not a cloud approach problem. A good example of cloud done right is the venstar color touch thermostats. There is a cloud function that supports it to change settings, view runtimes, manage alerts and even configure the stat. However the stat runs completely standalone and the cloud interface is not required. It can be shut off from within the thermostat if you don't want it. Dlink Cloud Routers and WD MyCloud NAS are 2 more examples of great cloud management solutions for home technology in the same way. Both of these products complement their functions with cloud, but they continue doing their job, cloud or no cloud. I watch for home technology products that have meaningful, but not dependent, cloud management functions. I want cloud management and a local lan interface. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 I work in the industry so for me cloud is huge as I work in telecommunications and the cloud is a whole new revenue stream for us as businesses are moving servers out of their office into the cloud en masse. Probably better to just embrace it as with the whole Internet of things, I think a few years from now it will be hard to even buy a toaster that doesn't have connectivity. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
oberkc Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I work in the industry so for me cloud is huge as I work in telecommunications and the cloud is a whole new revenue stream for us as businesses are moving servers out of their office into the cloud en masse. Probably better to just embrace it as with the whole Internet of things, I think a few years from now it will be hard to even buy a toaster that doesn't have connectivity. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Resistance is futile?
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 ... Probably better to just embrace it as with the whole Internet of things, I think a few years from now it will be hard to even buy a toaster that doesn't have connectivity. Old technology! I have that app that turns the screen so bright I just lay it on my bread and it toasts it. The downside is that when you flip the bread over it almost blinds you and I am too lazy to email Google to get approval to adjust the toast a little darker.
mwester Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I work in the industry so for me cloud is huge as I work in telecommunications and the cloud is a whole new revenue stream for us as businesses are moving servers out of their office into the cloud en masse. Probably better to just embrace it as with the whole Internet of things, I think a few years from now it will be hard to even buy a toaster that doesn't have connectivity. And my problem with that is that one morning I'll put in my bread, and nothing will happen -- because the toaster cloud provider switched to a monthly-fee-based service, and I need to subscribe, provide a credit card, and pay a monthly fee to get my toast. Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for cloud services for the right things (I too am in that industry, and pay my mortgage every month in part due to our customers using my employer's cloud services). But when it comes to home appliances, the value proposition becomes very "spongy" when at any moment, without notice, I can be forced to pay a monthly fee -- to me, that changes a "purchase" to a "lease", which I view as a fundamental change in the value proposition.
larryllix Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And my problem with that is that one morning I'll put in my bread, and nothing will happen -- because the toaster cloud provider switched to a monthly-fee-based service, and I need to subscribe, provide a credit card, and pay a monthly fee to get my toast. Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for cloud services for the right things (I too am in that industry, and pay my mortgage every month in part due to our customers using my employer's cloud services). But when it comes to home appliances, the value proposition becomes very "spongy" when at any moment, without notice, I can be forced to pay a monthly fee -- to me, that changes a "purchase" to a "lease", which I view as a fundamental change in the value proposition. Yeah that's why they advertise the credit card scanners for cell phones on the TV commercials now. We have to get the hardware in place so that everybody is ready to pay up when the free cloud closes and it starts to rain on us. I am thinking of gluing my VISA card on my forehead so I can leave the house. ooops! I mean get out of bed in the mornings. hmmmm... better not have a TV in the bedroom then either. I had a massage therapist pull one of those on me a few months ago. Unbelievable where we are going! Who buys a toaster anymore? The rental ones include a free cleaning app so that the crumbs don't build up when you pay the minimum monthly app fee.
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