justin.cool Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Insteon 2441V Thermostat traffic causing dual band KPL’s to hang Configuration Dec 2014 ISY-994i IR/PRO, running 4.2.66 and UI 4.2.5 PLM: 2413SApproximately 120 Insteon devices: Mainly Switchlincs, Lamplincs, Outletlincs, On/Off Adapters, etc etc10 KPL’s – about 15% are dual band unitsTriggerlincs (2)RemoteLincs (3)RemoteLinc2 (4)Controllincs (2)Access Points (4) – 2 on each phase from each subpanelDualband LampLinc dimmers (4)Dual Band 240V load controller (2) (Normal Open, dual band)Signal Linc (2)Venstar Thermostats (3) with V2 RF interfaceEZRain/EZFlora Irrigation Controller v.92 House is about 4000 sq feet, two floors, but spread out. Two primary subpanels, one secondary. Secondary is dedicated to dryer, pool filter and water feature, and some outdoor outlets on the patio. Both primary panels each have a signal linc installed in the panels. Both primary panels have Leviton 51110-1 120/240 120/240 Volt Single-Phase Panel surge protectors. All power strips in use in the house are either filtered via X-10 Pro 20 A in line or 15A plug in filters, or do NOT have any surge suppression or noise filtering. No UPS in the system. Numerous other devices are filtered via one of the above or a simple X-10 5A plug in filter or a leviton in line 5A filter. Further Notes All thermostat dongles (T1, T2 and T3) are Rev 2.2R Multiple Sonos components, 3 Play 1 units, 1 Play 3, 1 Play 5, 1 Connect, and 2 Bridge units. DirecTV with Whole Home Network Background Realtively new KPL 6, (installed about 6 months ago) dual band 2334-224 installed in upstairs bedroom “flaked out” Randomly the LED Lights and the load light would flash ON/OFF or flicker Then the unit would just hang. Had to force an air gap with the reset button, then it would be OK for a few minutes then same symptoms again. Replaced the KPL-6 with a new unit out of the box. I did a Replace Device as part of this and that seemed to complete successfully. Got basically the same symptoms when I was just checking it out installed in a table top mounting box. The table top unit was plugged into the same outlet as the PLM for the checkout. Could not reliably do a Show Device Links Table, communication failed during the read. Returned both KPL’s to Smarthome, received new units. Installed new KPL in the table top box and went through the usual: Factory reset Convert to 6 button from 8 button Replace Device – Seemed to complete OK Performed a simple button test, ie pressing buttons and watching in the Admin Console for acknowledgment Main Button: ON /OFF OK Button A: ON OK Button A: OFF Acknowledgement in Admin console, but almost immediately after the button press several LEDs on the KPL flashed for a second and I noticed some additional traffic on the event viewer. Additional traffic turned out to be one of my three thermostat’s with Insteon 2441V’s, Rev 2.2R, reporting a change in temperature or something like that While looking at this, more LEDs flashed several times, then the KPL 6 appeared to be “hung”No acknowledgement in admin console of any button presses, and none of the LEDs changed when the buttons were pressed. Unplugged the KPL 6, waited 10 seconds, plugged it back in Appeared OK Button Check Main Button was acknowledged by admin console and LEDs reflected the change Button A: No response in admin console, not LED response Performed a Query from admin consoleVirtually all the LEDs then flickered wildly on the KPL, lots of traffic in event viewer. See EVENT LOG with RUN 4 in title Once again, flickering seemed to coincide with one of my three thermostats reporting temp change or generating traffic of some sort. Unplugged the KPL 6 Unplugged all three Insteon RF adapters, 2441V’s from all three thermostat’sNOTE: I modified all three thermostats some 3 – 4 years ago per the instructions (from the UD Forum or Venstar???) in order to stop the humidity being reported randomly and repeatedly Plugged the KPL 6 back in Restarted the admin console Perfect….all flashing LED’s have stopped. The KPL 6 has not hung for the last 1.5 hours Show Device Links Table on the KPL6 and a compare works perfectly and reports all records are identicalHowever, I did get several Hops Left = 0 on the event viewer, see EVENT LOG with RUN 5 in the title Other observations Over the past 9 months, the overall reliability of my system has decreased. For example, I have a program that shuts off the guest room bathroom fan after 20 minutes, whenever it is turned on. In the distant past (1 year or more ago), it would fail to turn off the fan once every few weeks. In the last 9 months or so it has failed to turn off the fan about half the time. In trying to troubleshoot this general reliability problem, I had actually turned off ALL the breakers in the house, EXCEPT for the HVACs, the ISY-99, the PLM, and the flaky device(s) I wanted to test. In retrospect, the HVAC’s provide power for the thermostat RF Adapters, so they were powered up as well. During that testing, things seemed to go into a death spiral…..my Apple Airport Extreme died when I accidently turned off power to the computer closet with the ISY-99, modem, back up disks, printers, etc etc. I got so many other / different screwy problems that I just stopped, installed a new Airport Time Capsule, and went back to the known “unreliable” state. Questions / Conclusions Has this problem been seen or witnessed by anyone before, ie RF adapters for thermostats causing this? Note: Sometime in the past year or so, when I viewed the Admin Console Log, the temperature was being reported, by all three thermostats, with a funny symbol: 75° included after the number but before the degree symbol. This may or may not be related. The only KPLs that have I have observed with this issue are the dual band ones. While these Thermostats seem to be directly related to the KPL 6 issue, I believe this is just one of the serious noise / signal sucker problems that I must stomp out in order to get back to a solid system. Thus, I need to get this one taken care of and then onto the next……. ISY-Events-Log.v4.2.66__Fri 2015.01.23 11.42.55 AM Run4.txt ISY-Events-Log.v4.2.66__Fri 2015.01.23 11.51.28 AM RUN5.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Since unplugging the thermostat adapters seems to solve the problem, have you tried plugging in just one adapter? or two? Are the adapters being plugged into the same thermostats they were removed from? Do you have any programs that include the thermostat(s)? If so, what is the result if you disable the program(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin.cool Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Stusviews, For now the thermostat RF adapters are unplugged....... The only s/w programs for the thermostats are set to trigger at 11 PM each night. I will disable them before tonight rolls around. The thermostat traffic that seemed to cause the problem is a change in temperature being reported, not related to any program. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Hi Justin, I must echo Stu's suggestion to put one or two of them back and see what happens. To answer your question: yes there have been random reports of KPLs locking up. This said almost in all cases a replacement fixed the problem. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin.cool Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 The continuing story Per suggestions from Stusviews, and M. Kohanim: Removed KPL-6 in question from table top enclosure box and installed it into the wall switch J-Box.Note: The table top enclosure box with the KPL-6 in question was plugged into an outlet directly adjacent to the PLM With all 3 Thermostat RF adapters still removed from the system, I ran a Show Device Links Table and Compare. 100% Match Tested the KPL-6 buttons First few presses worked as expected. Then LEDs flashed for a second or two with each button press. KPL-6 beeped once for about a second and the Set Button flashed RED. Then the KPL-6 was hung….ie no response from admin console or any button presses Cycled power on KPL-6 via the Set Button Further, I removed ALL loads and power strips, (except as noted) from the 120V branch for this KPL. This included an X-Box, Wii, TV, cordless phone charger, a GFCI outlet and various other teenager must-have’s. The only known load that remained on this branch were the KPL-6, and its Main load (low wattage ceiling lamp with incandescent bulbs). Note 1: GFCI was “removed” by hitting the TEST button and ensuring the RESET button popped out Note 2: In my early Insteon days (2008) I ceremoniously eliminated all power strips in the house that were NOT straight through power, ie power strips with surge protectors were banned. Factory reset on KPL-6 Convert from 8 button to 6 button Restore device Tested buttons: Main button does nothing Button A turns ON the Main load Performed Show Device Links Table LEDs on KPL-6 and the load on Main flashed/flickered randomly during this diagnostic Performed a Compare, 1 record mismatch from 26 records. Record 17. Factory reset on KPL-6 Convert from 8 button to 6 button Restore device Performed Show Device Links Table and Compare – 100% match Installed 1 (one) of the three thermostat RF adapters. Verified thermostat operation through the Admin Console Tested KPL-6 buttons: All buttons work properly – no flashing or flickering all throughout approximately 5 minutes of random button pressing Plugged ALL the devices from this branch circuit back in, including the GFCI outlet. Tested KPL-6 buttons: All buttons work properly – no flashing or flickering all throughout approximately 5 minutes of random button pressing Installed 2nd (second) of the three thermostat RF adapters. Verified thermostat operation through the Admin Console Tested KPL-6 buttons: All buttons work properly – no flashing or flickering all throughout approximately 5 minutes of random button pressing Show Device Links Table and Compare – 100% match Installed 3rd (third) of the three thermostat RF adapters. Verified thermostat operation through the Admin Console Tested KPL-6 buttons: All buttons work properly – no flashing or flickering all throughout approximately 5 minutes of random button pressing Show Device Links Table and Compare – 1 mismatch on record 12 Ran Show Device Links Table and Compare again – 1 mismatch on record 9 Ran Show Device Links Table and Compare again – 100% match All buttons remain solid……. Conclusions (from an amateur, so please add your own 2 cents!!) Some interference / signal sucking still exists in the system, and this particular KPL-6 is a victimIt would appear at this time that there is NO co-relation between the RF Adapters and the flashing / erratic behavior that was demonstrated when the KPL-6 was in the Table Top enclosure and plugged into the same outlet as the PLM. Historically speaking, this particular part of the house, with so many electronic chargers / devices, has always been the most flakey, (with respect to Insteon) in the entire system. Therefore, I expect to see some other anomalies surface within the coming week(s). I will have to have a strategy to aggressively chase it when the problem(s) do again surface. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Hi Justin, Thanks so very much for the details. Are these KPLS naturally 6 or 8 buttons? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin.cool Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Michel, As always, thank you for your prompt response...... The KPL that is now in place and working, started out as an 8 button. The failed unit that was returned was probably an eight button....the only way I know to tell is that after a factory reset, it became 8 button KPL. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hi Justin, Thank you. The reason I asked was because I have seen a couple issues restoring a 6 button configuration on a converted KPL. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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