blueman2 Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 Thanks, Michel. I have the highest respect for UDI and the ISY product. I also find your responsiveness and willingness to help customers to be exceptional. I will work to make the changes you recommend. I need to do some more research to make sure I really understand what I need to do/disable with my programs. That said, I am still amazed that Smarthome continues to sell a product explicitly for Garage Door Automation when there is a known bug that makes the product unsafe for that exact usage. This is not a case of the customer using a product incorrectly. I had it installed exactly as in their instruction booklet. Yes, there is a warning about CLOSING the door and making sure there are no obstructions. But there is no warning that the door can open at any time, day or night, and remain open until you manually close it. Perhaps for days or weeks if you are traveling and not home. I think Smarthome should stop all sales of the Garage Automation kit until this is resolved, and provide a recall of existing units so that customers know about this problem. We should not have to read forums on the internet to find out about such a serious security issue. Sorry if I come across as being negative towards UDI. I am not. But I am increasingly negative about Smarthome. Creating this level of risk and not warning customers about this SPECIFIC issue of a known bug is reprehensible. Link to comment
Teken Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Hello Blueman2, I must stress the following point(s) so balanced information is stated for all to see. The GDO kit has been sold for more than 7 years which equates to tens of thousands of units in the wild. This issue has never existed until recently and in my humble estimation seems to impact an extremely small portion of the general public. I can safely say out of the tens of thousands of Insteon users with the GDO kit. There have been less than 100 people who have reported this ALL ON / ALL OFF issue. To date this ALL ON / ALL OFF issue has not appeared in any other software / hardware controller from any maker, none. This includes every version of controller Smartlabs has created and sold to the public. Steps have been taken from Smartlabs to remove the ALL ON / ALL OFF command from the device table from the PLM and future Insteon devices. The reality is, no one knows exactly how to repro this issue where it is measurable in a closed state. My expectation is once this information is validated and proven. This critical piece of information will be shared to the UDI forum members in a concise manner which all can apply and recreate if need be. Link to comment
Blackbird Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Great I just finished hooking up my Garage kit. I do have the 2.0 plm. Am I at risk of this happening to me? How can this be prevented besides not using the garage IO kit? Link to comment
MikeD Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Hi Blackbird, I have been using an Insteon I/O Linc to control my Garage Door for well over a year with no issues. I also have never experience an All-On or All-Off. One of the suggestions to help prevent this from happening was posted by LeeG earlier here. http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15636-considering-disabling-isy-due-to-all-on-bug-process-to-remove-it/?p=133909 Other suggestions can be found here. http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/10516-random-all-on-event/?p=133991 ~Mike Link to comment
stusviews Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I think Smarthome should stop all sales of the Garage Automation kit until this is resolved, and provide a recall of existing units so that customers know about this problem. We should not have to read forums on the internet to find out about such a serious security issue. Why? There is no Smarthome product that causes an All-on. I added an after-market supercharger to my car. Should the car manufacturer have responsibility if the supercharger damages the engine? Link to comment
larryllix Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Why? There is no Smarthome product that causes an All-on. I added an after-market supercharger to my car. Should the car manufacturer have responsibility if the supercharger damages the engine? I can understand why people would want to close their garage door or at least be notified of it left open and I understand the risks involved without site of the opening. I have never really understood people wanting to remote open their garage doors or unlock their passage doors remotely. The same view problem comes to mind for differing reasons though. I don't carry any car keys or house keys and I can have my garage door open any time when I am within viewing distance with a little gadget they give you with garage door openers that is hooked onto my vehicle's sunvisor. My passage doors open with a simple 4-8 digit password or a temporary password I give to my neighbours if and when the need comes. I am sure if my home was burglarised and my insurance company discovered I left my doors unlocked and my garage door wide open that would be the end of any further insurance coverage. I may have trouble making a claim for a break-in and the police would not even bother looking for somebody logically invited in. We can get carried away with the "cool" gadgetry though. Most people think all the HA is just an expensive OCD joke anyway and save their money for cruises and other toys. When my kids come to stay with us the first thing they always do is find their assigned bedroom LampLinc and unplug it so the MS cannot turn it on in the middle of the night should they stand up. They are all techies, one multi-millionaire from it, but wouldn't even leave a Hub plugged in after trying it for a month. Link to comment
stusviews Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I like being able to open the garage door by pressing a (KPL) button on the way out. I like that the same button indicates the state of the garage door. Also, my insurance company is legally obligated to pay for loss even if I leave my door wide open, the same as they are in the event of an auto accident. Our door locks are not Insteon and thus are not affected by the "All On" phenomenon. And, other than your opinion, which I agree can be an asset, what evidence do you have that, "Most people think all the HA is just an expensive OCD joke anyway and save their money for cruises and other toys." Most of the people I mention home automation to don't even know what it is. Link to comment
larryllix Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I like being able to open the garage door by pressing a (KPL) button on the way out. I like that the same button indicates the state of the garage door. Also, my insurance company is legally obligated to pay for loss even if I leave my door wide open, the same as they are in the event of an auto accident. Our door locks are not Insteon and thus are not affected by the "All On" phenomenon. And, other than your opinion, which I agree can be an asset, what evidence do you have that, "Most people think all the HA is just an expensive OCD joke anyway and save their money for cruises and other toys." Most of the people I mention home automation to don't even know what it is. Yup, your insurance company has to give you thirty days of notice of termination in my country. Make a claim and they can turn into rabid dogs though. I hate shopping for insurance policies and I have had it done to me. Door locks . I don't need them but there have been a few times where it may have been handy to change a combination. OCD joke? IN a survey of 10,000 people watching my lights follow them around the house, 9,287 rolled their eyes to a recording cam when they thought I could not see them. I have spent $5283 dollars on HA equipment to turn off lights and not waste energy money. The LED bulbs alone, left on 24/7, could cost me over $88 in excess energy consumption over the course of my lifetime. Now it is going to cost more money to rewrite my Last Will and Testament to include this equipment. Link to comment
Blackbird Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If I click on the main tab on the ISY then network, I see at the bottom middle, there is the option for all on all off. Is this what you guys are referring to and if so why doesn't UD disable this feature or give you the option? Link to comment
stusviews Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Hi Blackbird. The All-On phenomenon is an unexpected incident when all or nearly all devices turn on unexpectedly. At this point, the actual trigger is not precisely known, although there are some theories that are somewhat consistent in that a wireless device is involved. But, some have reported the aberrance in the absence of such devices. Link to comment
oberkc Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I understand the point of those who suggest that having door locks and garage doors connected to an automation system may present an INCREASED security risk. On the other hand, if used properly (and no unexpected bugs) there may be an argument to suggest that such an arrangement can be MORE secure. A program to close the doors if left open by accident, for example...A program to lock the doors automatically at night....The ability to check and close the garage door from any part of the house without having to walk to the garage....The ability to close and lock the doors while away, when inadvertently left open or even automatically closing the garage door when leaving the house....The peace of mind from being able to check the status...all things which can, arguably, ENHANCE security. On balance, it is unclear to me whether I am more or less secure with these gadgets, but there are instances where having them is helpful from a security perspective. Adding to that is having some additional convenience thrown in, and I don't find it too hard to understand why some want to automate garage doors and door locks. I will admit, however, that living in an area where I don't really worry about break-ins is really nice and also a factor in my decisions about the level of security I need. It is not much risk for me leaving doors open and unlocked, so I don't think too much about the risk/reward part. It is primarily a convenience thing for me and and something I enjoy. Link to comment
LeeG Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 The All On is not issued by the ISY. There is some overlap of Insteon messages on the Insteon network that results in a malformed Insteon message that looks like an All On message. It does not appear in the Event Viewer trace as either an inbound or outbound message. It can be generated by triggering a Program with a message from an RF only device and have the Program send a Scene On message as the initial or near initial Insteon message. The RF only device sends multiple messages so the theory is the outbound message for the Scene On overlaps the additional inbound from the the RF device, forming the All On message. Does not happen every time but generally will happen eventually. I avoid the issue by coding a Wait of 1 or 2 seconds as the first Program action if the Program is going to send a Scene On. This is not the only scenario where the overlap can happen. The latest PLMs eliminated the ability to request an All On/Off so it is not requested by the ISY. I have never seen an All On situation even running various RF only devices and two ISYs. Many folks have not. Others see the All On enough to be an issue. Link to comment
pjjameso Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Interesting topic and luckily have never experienced the all on issue. Question, why buy the Insteon opener kit when this zwave device is available which would be controlled by the ISY? Would the same issue occur if a keypad button is programed to trigger the isy to send a zwave command to open or close? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M75TEIU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=PBYV64QP7F0S&coliid=I3FHF55RQ18LT4 Link to comment
Teken Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Interesting topic and luckily have never experienced the all on issue. Question, why buy the Insteon opener kit when this zwave device is available which would be controlled by the ISY? Would the same issue occur if a keypad button is programed to trigger the isy to send a zwave command to open or close? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M75TEIU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=PBYV64QP7F0S&coliid=I3FHF55RQ18LT4 Because many users do not have Z-Wave as their secondary protocol installed into the ISY. For those that do going with Z-Wave is an alternative for sure. Or in the case of others who have a ELK alarm system that is another method or any 3rd party security alarm system. The reality is, unless the GDO maker is the provider of said (remote) controller. There is no product on the open market that is supposed to initiate the same, none. We as tinkerers have made it so and in doing so have to accept the responsibility of having a 3rd party device integrating with something that was never designed from the on set to support such a feature. People have to take responsibility for their own actions unless they want to live in a nanny State like CA, NY! Back On Topic: Won't this be a kick in the face when the solution to the ALL ON / ALL OFF is found to be something so small and simple??? Link to comment
Scyto Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Nanny state like CA. I guess you are referring to Canada and New York? Link to comment
Teken Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Nanny state like CA. I guess you are referring to Canada and New York? At the rate we are giving up our civil liberties. Canada will very much be a Nazi State! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Link to comment
larryllix Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 At the rate we are giving up our civil liberties. Canada will very much be a Nazi State! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Maybe a Nazi province???? I don't want to have to carry a weapon! Link to comment
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