New to ISY994 and Insteon (mini-remote 4 scene)

[brianp6621]

So I got me new ISY994 (first one didn't have a microsd) and got it setup and working, sorta.

 

I only have 2 Insteon modules, both outdoor on/off modules used in the new back yard. These were working perfectly with the mini-remote for several weeks.

 

After installing the ISY, I linked the 2 on/off modules and 2 things happened.

 

1. The control/status controls are very flaky. Quite often the ISY can not get the status of these modules or can not control them. I am guessing this is an Insteon communication issue, never used Insteon in this house, that I need to troubleshoot. Any suggestions?

 

2. I can no longer control the modules with the mini-remote. I think I chose to remove all links (didn't understand what that meant, not sure I do now) when I added those modules to the ISY. I THOUGHT I should be able to do this somehow by adding the remote as a controller and the on/off modules as a responder within the same scene. I have done this and I see the status of the remote change on the ISY when I use the remote buttons, but it still doesn't control the lights. In this setup is the remote using RF directly to the on/off module (as it was originally and was working perfectly) or is it sending RF to the PLM and the PLM is trying to use powerline to the modules (which seems to not be working well). So this raises 2 questions. 1) How can I get the remote to use RF directly to the modules while the modules are also controlled  by the ISY? 2) Can the PLM tell the miniremote to use RF to turn the modules on/off to help with my powerline communication issues and if so, how do I set this up.

 

Sorry I'm so new to this, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Brian

[Teken]

Hello Brian,

 

A couple things you will need to perform to ensure you have a reliable and consistent Insteon network.

 

1. Confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test outlined by the 2413S PLM starter guide.

2. Verify that the plug in On/Off module has both RF / Power line turned on via the ISY Admin Console.

[brianp6621]

Hello Brian,

 

A couple things you will need to perform to ensure you have a reliable and consistent Insteon network.

 

1. Confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test outlined by the 2413S PLM starter guide.

2. Verify that the plug in On/Off module has both RF / Power line turned on via the ISY Admin Console.

How do I do #2. I don't see that anywhere.

[Brian H]

Is the PLM connected to the same circuit as the computing equipment?

Computing equipment and UPS units are known to effect power line communications.

As a test. Can you power the PLM on an extension cord. To a different circuit and see if anything changes.

I have my UPS on a FilterLinc and the PLM in the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front of it.

 

The RF Beacon Tests mentioned should also be done.

 

You did use the ISY Administrative Console to do all the linking and not the manual set button method?

[brianp6621]

Is the PLM connected to the same circuit as the computing equipment?

Computing equipment and UPS units are known to effect power line communications.

As a test. Can you power the PLM on an extension cord. To a different circuit and see if anything changes.

I have my UPS on a FilterLinc and the PLM in the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front of it.

 

The RF Beacon Tests mentioned should also be done.

 

You did use the ISY Administrative Console to do all the linking and not the manual set button method?

I have moved the PLM around a bit without much change (although initially one outlet did seem better when I used an extension cord). Unfortunately I'm also somewhat limited as the ISY needs to be near my home entertainment system as I intend to use IR, and my only network connections are there as well. So the ISY/PLM are located on the same oulet as all of my home theater.

 

The original links between the module and the remote were done the manual set button method. However then I linked the modules and the remote to the ISY. However I can't get them to work with one another. What exactly do I need to do to tell the remote to be the controller of the module. I THINK I've done that already as I described in my original post.

 

Brian

[Teken]

How do I do #2. I don't see that anywhere.

 

Hello Brian,

 

When you added the Plug in On/Off module selecting the device from the node tree on the left should provide you with an *Option* tab. Within this tab are the two features you should confirm are selected in the box.

 

As you indicated before performing manual linking outside of the ISY will leave the system unaware of the state / status of the devices.

 

You still need to complete the coupling / bridging test outlined in the 2413S PLM QSG. Please report back what the two On/Off modules do when the beacon test is initiated.

 

NOTE: The following items need to be done and present to ensure all of this will operate as you expect.

 

1. Update the ISY Series Controller to the latest 4.3.6 firmware. Doing so will allow everyone to be at the same reference point. This also insures all Insteon devices are supported and any minor bugs resolved.

 

Please follow this link for the latest update and complete all the requires steps: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16258-release-436-rc3-is-now-available/

 

2. The Firmware & UI under the *Help* About must be the same.

 

3. Only add your devices via the ISY Series Controller.

 

4. Perform all linking, programming, only via the ISY Series Controller.

 

5. Confirm proper coupling / bridging as outlined above.

[brianp6621]

Hello Brian,

 

When you added the Plug in On/Off module selecting the device from the node tree on the left should provide you with an *Option* tab. Within this tab are the two features you should confirm are selected in the box.

 

As you indicated before performing manual linking outside of the ISY will leave the system unaware of the state / status of the devices.

 

You still need to complete the coupling / bridging test outlined in the 2413S PLM QSG. Please report back what the two On/Off modules do when the beacon test is initiated.

But I performed the linking inside of the ISY after I did the manual linking (didn't have the ISY at the time). I don't remember what I chose, but I do not have access to an option tab now.

 

What do I need to do to resolve this part of the issue? Relink them in the ISY? reset somehow?

 

I will perform the coupling test when I get home.

[Teken]

But I performed the linking inside of the ISY after I did the manual linking (didn't have the ISY at the time). I don't remember what I chose, but I do not have access to an option tab now.

 

What do I need to do to resolve this part of the issue? Relink them in the ISY? reset somehow?

 

I will perform the coupling test when I get home.

 

Hello Brian,

 

My apologies I was in the middle of editing my post when you replied. Please follow the steps above and come back when all of is done.

 

Since you don't have very many devices the first thing you should do is hard reset all the devices. This not only is best practices but insures any ghost and test links from the factory are removed.

 

You can do a manual hard reset outlined by the full users manual. Once all the devices are hard reset please add each device into the ISY Series Controller. Once they are properly added they should be listed in the device node tree on the left. Afterwards please go to the On/Off module and select it and you should see the *Options* in the middle pane.

 

Verify the RF / Power Line is check marked if so good.

 

Afterwards, please confirm proper coupling and if its good, move forward. If not you need to move one of the On/Off modules until it shows a green LED indicating opposite phase. A red LED indicates same electrical *Leg / phase*.

 

Then, you can make the new mini remote a controller to the On/Off module.

[stusviews]

 Unfortunately I'm also somewhat limited as the ISY needs to be near my home entertainment system as I intend to use IR, and my only network connections are there as well. So the ISY/PLM are located on the same oulet as all of my home theater.

 

Unplug all the home theater gear so the the PLM and ISY are the only devices plugged in, Do not use a surge suppressor. Does communication improve? If so, then you need to filter the home theater equipment.

[Teken]

Agreed, also before you hard reset any device listed in the ISY. You need to delete it from the system first than you can hard reset the devices one at a time.

[larryllix]

Some manuals will call this "factory reset".

 

This is always a good idea with any new Insteon device before using it with ISY. They can come doing things that are not supposed to be possible. I have had a few now that did weird things.

 

When you create a direct link between two Insteon devices and then create another scene inside  ISY you have created two different scenes/links inside the end device. Most devices can support up to 256 scenes in each device.

It is best to create them only inside ISY and then have ISY install them. You keep control of the links, it makes it much easier to do and ISY knows what is happening when devices talk to each other.

[brianp6621]

OK. So the test from my PLM made the outdoor modules do nothing. Red light was on steady like always. When I moved one of them inside it immediately began blinking green green red. I assume this means I gave no power line signal getting to the middle when outside.

 

So what are my options?

 

Can I just link the mini remote to the PSY and tell the mini remote to issue the RF command? RF works perfectly. If so, how?

 

I thought I'd need to bridge phases but since the module lights weren't blinking at all it seems like I'm getting no power line signal through.

 

I'm also confused as I thought the PLM would work over RF so why is the miniremote working but not the PLM?

 

 

Help!

[oberkc]

No blinking indicates no RF signal. Blinking red indicates RF signal, but on same phase. Blinking green indicates RF signal and on opposite phases. (This is all from memory...best to confirm in manuals.)

 

Given what you describe, I would focus first on ensuring you have good communication between legs of your electrical system. I find access points the most flexible option since they can be moved easily. If you have other plug-in modules that can be repositioned, you could try that.

 

Also make sure your PLM is not plugged into the same outlet or circuit having lots of other gadgets, computer equipment, ups, surge suppressors, etc.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Brian,

 

In order to have your mini remote control your devices, you MUST create scenes:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

 

If you are still having problems, please do not hesitate to contact our tech support team and/or submit a ticket (links below).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[brianp6621]

No blinking indicates no RF signal. Blinking red indicates RF signal, but on same phase. Blinking green indicates RF signal and on opposite phases. (This is all from memory...best to confirm in manuals.)

 

Given what you describe, I would focus first on ensuring you have good communication between legs of your electrical system. I find access points the most flexible option since they can be moved easily. If you have other plug-in modules that can be repositioned, you could try that.

 

Also make sure your PLM is not plugged into the same outlet or circuit having lots of other gadgets, computer equipment, ups, surge suppressors, etc.

 

Several things about this confuse me. I thought the test would indicate both RF and powerline connectivity AND phase. How do you distinguish between 3 different conditions(phase, RF connectivity, powerline connectivity) with only 2 responses (color of light and blinking).

 

Second, why does my RF miniremote work perfectly from the same area but not the PLM (with respect to RF)

[brianp6621]

Hi Brian,

 

In order to have your mini remote control your devices, you MUST create scenes:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

 

If you are still having problems, please do not hesitate to contact our tech support team and/or submit a ticket (links below).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I have done this as described in my original post. I don't know what if anything I did wrong but I made the mini-remote the controller and the outdoor module the responder. When issuing a command from the ISY to turn the mini-remote on, its state changed to ON, but it did not seemingly issue the command to the outdoor module.

[Teken]

I have done this as described in my original post. I don't know what if anything I did wrong but I made the mini-remote the controller and the outdoor module the responder. When issuing a command from the ISY to turn the mini-remote on, its state changed to ON, but it did not seemingly issue the command to the outdoor module.

 

Hello Brian,

 

I believe there is a little bit of confusion here so let me explain. All battery operated devices like the Mini Remote go to sleep and can not be sent any commands from any other Insteon device. Unless its placed in linking mode at the very bottom of the remote case.

 

When you issue a command from the Admin Console it will do absolutely nothing to the mini remote because its asleep. Now, if you linked the mini remote to the On/Off module via the Admin Console.

 

I can assure you if you watch the On/Off Module when you press one of the assigned (linked) buttons that its status of On/Off will be reflected in the Admin Console.

 

You of course will also see and hear the module turn on / off.

 

As to your question about the *Beacon* test, all this does is confirm if a device is on the same phase / opposite phase. This coupling / bridging is done via RF only.

 

NOTE: Battery operated devices can not be controlled by the Admin Console. Battery operated devices such as MS, Trigger Linc, Door Sensor, Leak Sensor, Mini Remotes, are controllers only. They can not respond to a message like other power line devices.

[stusviews]

Several things about this confuse me. I thought the test would indicate both RF and powerline connectivity AND phase. How do you distinguish between 3 different conditions(phase, RF connectivity, powerline connectivity) with only 2 responses (color of light and blinking).

 

Second, why does my RF miniremote work perfectly from the same area but not the PLM (with respect to RF)

 

A device has powerline connectivity if it's connected to the powerline. There is no test that determines whether or not the signal is being interfered with. Only trial and error can solve that problem.

 

The beacon/4-button test is a test of RF only. If the responding device blinks at all, then there is RF communication from the initiating device to the responding device (it's a good idea to test in both directions). If the responding device remains unlit, then there is no RF communication between the devices. That does not mean that there is also no powerline communication.

 

The color of the responding LED is used to determine if the devices are or are not on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply.

[brianp6621]

Hello Brian,

 

I believe there is a little bit of confusion here so let me explain. All battery operated devices like the Mini Remote go to sleep and can not be sent any commands from any other Insteon device. Unless its placed in linking mode at the very bottom of the remote case.

 

When you issue a command from the Admin Console it will do absolutely nothing to the mini remote because its asleep. Now, if you linked the mini remote to the On/Off module via the Admin Console.

 

I can assure you if you watch the On/Off Module when you press one of the assigned (linked) buttons that its status of On/Off will be reflected in the Admin Console.

 

You of course will also see and hear the module turn on / off.

 

As to your question about the *Beacon* test, all this does is confirm if a device is on the same phase / opposite phase. This coupling / bridging is done via RF only.

 

NOTE: Battery operated devices can not be controlled by the Admin Console. Battery operated devices such as MS, Trigger Linc, Door Sensor, Leak Sensor, Mini Remotes, are controllers only. They can not respond to a message like other power line devices.

Got it. So my hope of using the PLM to issue a command to the remote, to issue a command to the module, was illconceived.

 

So if I want to set things up so that I can control the module from both my phone (via Mobillync) and locally through the miniremote I would

1. Link the module to the ISY

2. Link the remote to the ISY

3. Create a scene and set the remote as a controller for this scene

4. Set the module as a responder for this scene.

 

Then by using the linked button on the remote it would activate the scene on the ISY and I could also do this be selecting the scene in Mobillinc?

This all sound like it would work like I want IF I could get my ISY/PLM to communicate to my on/off devices, which is the bigger issue.

 

I STILL don't understand why the miniremote RF direct to the modules works fine, but the PLM doesn't.

 

And thanks, I now understand the beacon test is really only RF/phase.

[brianp6621]

No blinking indicates no RF signal. Blinking red indicates RF signal, but on same phase. Blinking green indicates RF signal and on opposite phases. (This is all from memory...best to confirm in manuals.)

 

Given what you describe, I would focus first on ensuring you have good communication between legs of your electrical system. I find access points the most flexible option since they can be moved easily. If you have other plug-in modules that can be repositioned, you could try that.

 

Also make sure your PLM is not plugged into the same outlet or circuit having lots of other gadgets, computer equipment, ups, surge suppressors, etc.

I just realized I am further confused. When I moved the on/off module indoors it blinked green-green-red. What does that mean? These tests are not well covered and are even inconsistently stated from manual to manual.

A device has powerline connectivity if it's connected to the powerline. There is no test that determines whether or not the signal is being interfered with. Only trial and error can solve that problem.

 

The beacon/4-button test is a test of RF only. If the responding device blinks at all, then there is RF communication from the initiating device to the responding device (it's a good idea to test in both directions). If the responding device remains unlit, then there is no RF communication between the devices. That does not mean that there is also no powerline communication.

 

The color of the responding LED is used to determine if the devices are or are not on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply.

Please read my reply to oberkc above. I'm really confused how to interpret the results of the test I did.

 

I just realized, maybe the greens were what I was supposed to interpret as "on the other phase" and the red was the status indicator showing the module was in the OFF state. Is this correct?

[Teken]

I just realized I am further confused. When I moved the on/off module indoors it blinked green-green-red. What does that mean? These tests are not well covered and are even inconsistently stated from manual to manual.

Please read my reply to oberkc above. I'm really confused how to interpret the results of the test I did.

 

I just realized, maybe the greens were what I was supposed to interpret as "on the other phase" and the red was the status indicator showing the module was in the OFF state. Is this correct?

 

Yes, if you perform the 4 tap *Beacon* test and if the respond-er in this case the On/Off module is off. When looking down at the LED it will be Green than Red. If the unit was on you would see Green, Green, Green, this assumes it was on the opposite electrical leg.

[stusviews]

I just realized I am further confused. When I moved the on/off module indoors it blinked green-green-red. What does that mean? These tests are not well covered and are even inconsistently stated from manual to manual.

 

An occasional red amidst green happens occasionally. RF communication between the devices is good, but not great. If you can get any two devices to respond correctly in both directions, then you have effectively bridged the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. It doesn't matter how other devices respond to the 4-tap test.

[brianp6621]

Just to close the loop here, a wireless extender in the right place fixed everything. So now I'm in to other questions /issues as can be seen in my other thread.

 

I also realized the answer to my question about RF is that the PLM seems to have relatively weak RF by itself which is why the PLM wouldn't reach the outdoor modules but the mini remote did.

 

I had to leave the wireless extender pretty close to the PLM to bridge the phases.

[Teken]

Just to close the loop here, a wireless extender in the right place fixed everything. So now I'm in to other questions /issues as can be seen in my other thread.

 

I also realized the answer to my question about RF is that the PLM seems to have relatively weak RF by itself which is why the PLM wouldn't reach the outdoor modules but the mini remote did.

 

I had to leave the wireless extender pretty close to the PLM to bridge the phases.

 

Hello Brian,

 

If you believe the PLM is offering a weak signal and its with in the two year warranty. I would ask for a cross ship and have it returned for a new one.

 

There is really no reason you should have to live with a sub par unit given the amount of money you have invested thus far.

[Brian H]

Where the PLM is located and what obstacles are in its RF path can also effect the distance.

If you look at the carefully worded specifications. It always gives you the maximum distances. It is in open space with NO obstacles in the RF path.

My 2413S can only reach one Access Point and no Dual Band module. Due to where it is mounted.