Surge supressor outlet for PLM?

[rleidy]

I'm setting-up a structured wiring enclosure with some surge-protected receptacles (these).  The PLM quick start guide says not to use an AC line filter to power the PLM - would these receptacles be considered filters?  I didn't think so, but the I get intermittent communication issues when the PLM is plugged-in to one of the surge protected outlets.  In an unprotected outlet, I don't seem to have the issue.  Just wondering if surge suppressor outlets "ought" to work with the PLM.  (Signalinc is installed at the breaker panel)

[Teken]

All of the Leviton surge outlets have some kind of filtering in place. The link you provided has two of them wired in parallel and thus the filtering aspect is cumulative.

 

If you remove the other and replace it with a standard outlet you will more than likely see normal PLM COM's. I've been using these surge alarm outlets for more than ten years with Insteon with out issue.

 

As noted above if there are multiple surge outlets like these on the same branch circuit it will indeed impact your Insteon network. 

[rleidy]

Teken - thanks for the reply.  When you say that you've not had any problem with these type of surge alarm outlets with Insteon, do I take it that you mean with Insteon communication in general?  Not that you're using them for the PLM with no problem, correct?  I guess I'm asking when would using the surge alarm outlets be okay and when would they cause Insteon issues?

 

Thanks! 

[Teken]

Teken - thanks for the reply.  When you say that you've not had any problem with these type of surge alarm outlets with Insteon, do I take it that you mean with Insteon communication in general?  Not that you're using them for the PLM with no problem, correct?  I guess I'm asking when would using the surge alarm outlets be okay and when would they cause Insteon issues?

 

Thanks! 

 

I do indeed protect my 2413S PLM using a Leviton surge alarm outlet that has internal filters. Using one in my case does not impact the PLM Insteon signal at all.

 

If you have two or more of these surge outlets on a branch circuit it will absolutely impact and filter out the Insteon signal. This is why its critical where you decide to place these surge alarm outlets in the home.

 

In my case I had planned from the on set how to best use these sort of protection devices on dedicated circuits or where the use of these outlets were at the end of a branch circuit. To be fair some filtering aspects of these surge outlets could have changed over time.

 

In my humble opinion that is pretty slim and the most probable issue you see is multi filtering that is showing this issue.

[mwester]

I avoid surge outlets, and prefer outboard surge-protectors.

 

I've had two lightning "events" -- one struck a tree about 15 feet from the house, the other (according to a neighbor) struck my ham-radio antenna on the garage roof.  In both cases, surge protectors performed wonderfully - sacrificing themselves for the good of my computer and radio equipment.  Because they were plug-in modules, replacement of the smoked surge protectors was trivial, which is not the case had they been wired-in.

 

Since then I've added Insteon to the mix, and prefer to ensure that all my surge protectors are on the other side of FilterLincs - again, something you can't do if they're wired-in.  (Edited to add: my PLM is plugged into the unprotected line -- but on the second floor, diagonally opposite the panel, in hopes that noise and sharp spikes on the line will be somewhat attenuated by sheer length of cable...)

[elvisimprsntr]

I just installed a Type 2 whole house surge protector in my breaker panel. Since its at the source side I have not seen any Insteon reliability issues. It snapped right in my SquareD panel like a double pole breaker. Cost around $60. Took less than 10 minutes to install.

 

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-SurgeBreaker-Surge-Protective-Device-Takes-2-Load-Center-Spaces-HOM2175SB/100182531

[Teken]

For the most protection all three (common) SPD's should be employed. Type 1 which is considered a primary surge protector at the service entrance meter. Type 2 (secondary) at the service panel and Type 3 (secondary) point of use surge protectors.

 

Both Type 1 & 2 SPD's will not protect the home against common in home induced surge / spike conditions which are caused by fridges, stoves, sump, HVAC, etc.

 

They also do not protect equipment against what most people consider in band (normal) surge / spike conditions. This is why point of use Type 3 surge protectors must be used at the source. These devices have a much lower voltage rating that the Type 1 & 2 do not have.

 

Their primary purpose is to protect the home against large surge / spike events. Keeping in mind none of the three types of SPD's will protect the home against a voltage sag / lull (brown out) condition. This is where a AVR power conditioner is used and should not be confused with a normal UPS.

 

A typical UPS comes on when (voltage) power has been lost at the mains.

 

Note, most cheaper AVR / UPS also do not compensate for frequency drift and the bulk of the mass produced UPS provide modified sine wave power and not pure sine wave power that comes from the POCO.

 

I thought the above should be provided for a little more clarity for those reading the material. 

[ELA]

All Surge suppressors with an integral EMI filter will suppress the Insteon signal to some degree.   Depending upon where in the circuit the EMI equipped Surge protector is placed also has an effect on the magnitude of the absorption effects.

 

Both Surge protectors mentioned in this thread have the same specification for EMI suppression.  I quantified a Leviton 5280 here:

http://www.elavenue.com/insteon_test_data.html

 

It mostly depends upon the size of the capacitor used in the filter section.  The two filters mentioned use a 0.01uf cap.   As you can see from the chart that does not cause much of an absorption.  Filters using 0.1uf and larger do start to have a more signifcant effect.  There are many surge suppressor strips with 0.1uf filters in them.

 

It is highly desirable to have MOV only ( surge protectors) for all types of electronics.   I have removed the capacitor from some desireable surge protector strips to retain the protective effect of the MOVs without the negative signal absorption effects of the capacitor.

[rleidy]

Thanks everyone for the great info - it was a great help.