How to disable doorbell chime yet know it's pushed?

[apostolakisl]

You could also use a ceramic resistor which would not making any light (if you don't want light that would be good) and it would realistically never burn out in this application.  You just need to get the ohms right using V=IR and make sure it is high enough wattage rating (P=IV)

 

You can use a multimeter to measure the actual amps and volts on the current chime and match that.

[stusviews]

R = E² ÷ P  A high wattage resistor is needed, at least 1.5 x P

[atmarosi]

Attached is a crude drawing of how it's all hooked up - however I can't seem to get the door bell press to work when I open/disable the circuit via the ioLinc.

 

I'm assuming I have it hooked up correctly of course - here is how I believe I have it hooked up:

I have the door bell chime circuit hooked up to the NC portion of the ioLinc so that when the ioLinc is 'enabled' my door bell chime works and i get Insteon messages when it is pressed in this position.

When I disable the chime would move to the NO portion of the circuit - where I have the cermic resistors setup to eat the door bell press so I can get the Insteon messages still.  However this portion doesn't work.

 

When I disable the chime it doesn't fire the chime - however I do not see the door bell being pressed at all in this position even with the resistors in the circuit.  Can someone give me a hand please?  Thanks!

 

 Andy

[Brian H]

Shouldn't the ELK930 be connected to the Sense and Ground Input?

You show it on the Ground and 5 volt connections. That will short out the five volt supply on the terminal block.

[atmarosi]

Oops - ya it's on the SENSE position and not the 5v....thanks for the notice!

 

 

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[larryllix]

OK I'll have a try at this.

I don't know what your Elk connections are and I can't read the terminals but... I assume the Elk is a series connected current sensing  input?

 

 

In addition the Brian's correction above,

 

1.  reconnect resistor green wire to the doorbell white/white wire going to Elk (parallel)

2.  reconnect doorbell button red/black wire to  I/OLink com terminal(swap with #3)

3.  reconnect Chime red/black wire to I/OLink NC terminal  (swap with #2)

 

 

Note: The resistors should be connected across the Chime at both ends except for the contact which will switch  the one connection end of each between Chime and resistor bank.

 

I don't see any resistance indicted on the pic or in text to know what kind of current will be drawn.

[Brian H]

Yes One of the Doorbell Sensing sections of the ELK930 is in series with the bell current. Minimum bell current specified in the data sheet is 900mA.

 

http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/1221.pdf

[jerlands]

I think this is how I'd wire it...

 

 

Seems what you need to do is complete the sense (input) circuit to ELK either using NO or NC side of IOLinc then route the output of ELK back to IOLinc sense.

 

 

 

Jon...

[larryllix]

I think this is how I'd wire it...

 

 

Seems what you need to do is complete the sense (input) circuit to ELK either using NO or NC side of IOLinc then route the output of ELK back to IOLinc sense.

 

EDIT.. you'll want to step down the feed to IOLinc Sense to 5v..

 

Jon...

That is the changes I suggested except I would draw source to load left to right

 

Your resistors don't show any resistance value. Depending on value they may be a problem burning out your transformer, I/O Linc or themselves (not likely). 5w20kj is not a resistance value but rather power ratings.

[atmarosi]

This is the power rating supposedly/according to the listing on Amazon:

Amico 10 Pcs 20K Ohm 5% 5W Watt Fixed Cement Power Resistors

[atmarosi]

And I have 4 of them in series as of right now. That can change of course.....

 

 

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[larryllix]

 

This is the power rating supposedly/according to the listing on Amazon:

Amico 10 Pcs 20K Ohm 5% 5W Watt Fixed Cement Power Resistors

 

At 20k only one resistor should be plenty.

Power = E² / R =  24² / 20k = 0.03 Watts. Not even going to warm but wil not be enough current to trigger the Elk series detection.

 

Current = E /R = 24 / 20k = 1.2mAmps. Not gonna' trigger the Elk sensing.

 

Brian stated this current from the spec as 900mA minimum and this would take

 

R = E / I = 24vac / 900mA = 26.67 ohms or less at 24vac transformer. At 16vac, less resistance.

 

I find it hard to believe any electronic doorbell would draw this kind of power. A mechanical doorbell might draw that heavy but I have never measured mine and they do put out a few watts of sound power. Strange input sensing.

[atmarosi]

I'm not married to the ELK - would this work easier without it? Just use the ioLinc?

 

 

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[larryllix]

I'm not married to the ELK - would this work easier without it? Just use the ioLinc?

 

 

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Can the ISY inject the doorbell status into the Elk instead?

 

I believe the I/OLinc can be programmed to control and link the output contacts directly from the input or separate them.

If this can be done on-the-fly from ISY programs the I/OLink would be all you need except for the 5 volt sensing input and the 24vac doorbell transformer.

 

If you don't have a pushbutton light you could possibly eliminate the transformer and just tie the pushbutton across the input I/OLinc sensing. Barring that you would require a 24vac relay to isolate the circuit voltages. That's the way I did it. I left the circuit the way it existed and tied the relay across the doorbell and the I/OLink sensing the relay contacts.

 

My I/OLink output rings the back doorbell sound and we use it to indicate the dryer is finished since we have no backdoor button.

[atmarosi]

I don't have a push button light - and your use on the laundry is pretty cool. Not sure I follow the way you hooked up the relay + push button.....with that in the equation that would still allow me to "disable/enable" the chime via the ioLinc and still know it's pressed regardless if the chime fires?

 

 

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[larryllix]

I don't have a push button light - and your use on the laundry is pretty cool. Not sure I follow the way you hooked up the relay + push button.....with that in the equation that would still allow me to "disable/enable" the chime via the ioLinc and still know it's pressed regardless if the chime fires?

 

 

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OK this is what I would try. It may not work for you.

 

Disconnect the pushbutton from all else. Wire it to the I/OLink from Gnd to Sense. No other wires in these terminals. You may want to test this to ISY or to the LEDs on the side first before proceeding. The low voltage from the I/OLinc may make a flakey PB operation.

 

Wire transformer to I/OLinc COM.

Other end of transformer to Chime.

Other side of Chime to I/OLinc NO.

 

Set options on I/OLinc to Latching Continuous. Relay Follows Input = NO

 

Use Amin Console to test the output manually testing if the doorbell rings from device controls on ISY, Be careful not to leave the Chime on too long and heat up doorbell.

Test pushbutton to see if status changes on ISY device input page.

 

 

Write a program like this

 

If

   control I/OLinc.input is 'On'

AND

    variable BabySleeping is Not 1   <----add this if basic program and connections work.

Then

   Set I/OLinc.output  'On'

   Wait 1 second

    Set I/OLinc.output 'Off;

 

 

Now your ISY knows about the doorbell button pushed and can decide whether to echo the command to the chime.

If I am in ISY vacation mode I send myself and wife notifications that somebody rang our doorbell. Being rural this isn't too often.

 

Note the options allow the I/OLinc to be combined or split into two distinct parts, input and output but I cannot see any way to control this from ISY. Talk to Michel about adding this option to the language later as an improvement. Maybe I am just missing the method. This would speed up your chime response time.

[giesen]

OK this is what I would try. It may not work for you.

 

Disconnect the pushbutton from all else. Wire it to the I/OLink from Gnd to Sense. No other wires in these terminals. You may want to test this to ISY or to the LEDs on the side first before proceeding. The low voltage from the I/OLinc may make a flakey PB operation.

 

Wire transformer to I/OLinc COM.

Other end of transformer to Chime.

Other side of Chime to I/OLinc NO.

 

Set options on I/OLinc to Latching Continuous. Relay Follows Input = NO

 

Use Amin Console to test the output manually testing if the doorbell rings from device controls on ISY, Be careful not to leave the Chime on too long and heat up doorbell.

Test pushbutton to see if status changes on ISY device input page.

 

 

Write a program like this

 

If

control I/OLinc.input is 'On'

AND

variable BabySleeping is Not 1 <----add this if basic program and connections work.

Then

Set I/OLinc.output 'On'

Wait 1 second

Set I/OLinc.output 'Off;

 

 

Now your ISY knows about the doorbell button pushed and can decide whether to echo the command to the chime.

If I am in ISY vacation mode I send myself and wife notifications that somebody rang our doorbell. Being rural this isn't too often.

 

Note the options allow the I/OLinc to be combined or split into two distinct parts, input and output but I cannot see any way to control this from ISY. Talk to Michel about adding this option to the language later as an improvement. Maybe I am just missing the method. This would speed up your chime response time.

The problem he'll have is that if he has a lighted pushbutton, it won't light because you've broken the circuit until after the doorbell is pushed, hence why he was trying the separate path with resistors.

[atmarosi]

Thanks for all the input!  

 

For the record:  I do NOT have a lighted-push-button

[larryllix]

The problem he'll have is that if he has a lighted pushbutton, it won't light because you've broken the circuit until after the doorbell is pushed, hence why he was trying the separate path with resistors.

I had asked and he previous stated that he had no light. 

 

BTW: The lighted pushbuttons have lights in parallel with the pushbutton so they light up when the pushbutton is not pressed. This presents an even more difficult problem as the sensing has to fall inside the resistance window AND provide enough current to light the pushbutton lamp without sensing contact closure.

 

If he ever adds a lighted PB he will have to connect his transformer and a relay to make this work. My worry is the 5vdc from the I/OLinc is never good for contacts, outside, with that low of a voltage and may be flakey.

 

Darn! Now I want to go back and revisit what I did on mine to possibly  improve it. People complain all the time it doesn't work and yet it never fails for me under test. I suspect the contacts are too deep for wimpy people or there is a slight time delay and they just fast poke it thinking it should work like a touch screen.

 

hmmmmm.... should these be called "pressbuttons"?

[atmarosi]

OK this is what I would try. It may not work for you.

 

Disconnect the pushbutton from all else. Wire it to the I/OLink from Gnd to Sense. No other wires in these terminals. You may want to test this to ISY or to the LEDs on the side first before proceeding. The low voltage from the I/OLinc may make a flakey PB operation.

 

Wire transformer to I/OLinc COM.

Other end of transformer to Chime.

Other side of Chime to I/OLinc NO.

 

Set options on I/OLinc to Latching Continuous. Relay Follows Input = NO

 

Use Amin Console to test the output manually testing if the doorbell rings from device controls on ISY, Be careful not to leave the Chime on too long and heat up doorbell.

Test pushbutton to see if status changes on ISY device input page.

 

 

Write a program like this

 

If

   control I/OLinc.input is 'On'

AND

    variable BabySleeping is Not 1   <----add this if basic program and connections work.

Then

   Set I/OLinc.output  'On'

   Wait 1 second

    Set I/OLinc.output 'Off;

 

 

Now your ISY knows about the doorbell button pushed and can decide whether to echo the command to the chime.

If I am in ISY vacation mode I send myself and wife notifications that somebody rang our doorbell. Being rural this isn't too often.

 

Note the options allow the I/OLinc to be combined or split into two distinct parts, input and output but I cannot see any way to control this from ISY. Talk to Michel about adding this option to the language later as an improvement. Maybe I am just missing the method. This would speed up your chime response time.

 

larryllix - this solution worked perfectly!

I was able to setup a 'program' icon on our MobiLinc to allow us to easily toggle the chime on/off.  Plus, I'm able to set it off/on during dusk -> dawn (off automatically at sunset, back on at sunrise).  Really simple, and elegant!  WAF = 10/10 

[larryllix]

larryllix - this solution worked perfectly!

I was able to setup a 'program' icon on our MobiLinc to allow us to easily toggle the chime on/off.  Plus, I'm able to set it off/on during dusk -> dawn (off automatically at sunset, back on at sunrise).  Really simple, and elegant!  WAF = 10/10 

Good to know! It was a shot in the dark as I have never tried it but then I have a lighted PB and it wouldn't work for that.

 

My PB is mounted on the side of the doorframe so people don't even see it without a light glaring at them. The latest PB I got has an LED in it and I thought I could play the diode aspect of it whereas the contacts show shorted for both polarities but the LED only shows a circuit for one way.