Is it better to use a scene or a trigger for all on/off?

[Guest]

Is it better to create a scene with all of your lights and then add a controller button to turn all on/off or is it better to add all your lights and then use a trigger based on the controller button going on or off?

 

Is one better than the other for syncing keypadlinc LEDs?

 

As an example, I have a KPL by the main entrance. I have one button that is in a scene with my office lights (both KPL button and the switchlinc are controllers in the scene). I would like that when I press the all on/off button on the KPL, that not only would all of the interior lights go on or off, but the office light on the KPL as well.

 

Can someone smarter than I help me out.

[sloop]

if i wnderstandlinc it correctly, you just include the button in the scene

 

so your all on/off scene would include all the devices (that control the load) and any buttons you want to sync

 

but then - i am a scenelinc noob

[sloop]

my problem is - it seems when i have a scene, the load and button are on the same keypad - so in an all on/off scene, the load on the keypad has to be excluded (if the button assigned to all on/off is on the same keypad)

 

so i am thinkinglinc that triggers are my answer - but i bet i need 200 of them - the next release will up the number but i am not sure what that number will be

[Michel Kohanim]

Is it better to create a scene with all of your lights and then add a controller button to turn all on/off or is it better to add all your lights and then use a trigger based on the controller button going on or off?

 

heavent, it's normally better to have them in a scene simply because having ISY in between normal INSTEON operations adds another hop in the operation. This said, however, read on ...

 

Is one better than the other for syncing keypadlinc LEDs?

 

As an example, I have a KPL by the main entrance. I have one button that is in a scene with my office lights (both KPL button and the switchlinc are controllers in the scene). I would like that when I press the all on/off button on the KPL, that not only would all of the interior lights go on or off, but the office light on the KPL as well.

 

my problem is - it seems when i have a scene, the load and button are on the same keypad - so in an all on/off scene, the load on the keypad has to be excluded (if the button assigned to all on/off is on the same keypad)

 

so i am thinkinglinc that triggers are my answer - but i bet i need 200 of them - the next release will up the number but i am not sure what that number will be

 

heatvent and slooplinc,

 

Here's the crux of the problem: KPL does not let you have one button control another. Now, we are working on a solution to allow a KPL button (not the load) to also act as a responder just for the sake of controlling the backlight for KPL buttons (release 2.3). This will solve most of your issues because you can do the following:

 

 

-Put your office lights in a scene, say, office with let's say KPL Button B as the controller for that scene. So, now everytime you click on B, all your office lights will turn on/off based on what you did to the button

-Put all your other lights in a scene, say, everything and, say, you make KPL 1 the controller

-Make another scene called, say, my office backlight and drop in KPL B in it as a responder

-Finally, make two triggers conditions based on KPL 1 (everything controller) and have them control the my office backlight scene

 

Sorry for all these workarounds but we have no choice till such time that KPLs allow each button control the other

 

With regards,

[Guest]

-Put your office lights in a scene, say, office with let's say KPL Button B as the controller for that scene. So, now everytime you click on B, all your office lights will turn on/off based on what you did to the button

-Put all your other lights in a scene, say, everything and, say, you make KPL 1 the controller

-Make another scene called, say, my office backlight and drop in KPL B in it as a responder

-Finally, make two triggers conditions based on KPL 1 (everything controller) and have them control the my office backlight scene

 

I think I found a simplier way, I have my office lights in an Office scene. This consists of KPL button E, a switchlinc and an ICON all as controllers (3-way circuit). I created a separate scene called All On/Off and put anything that is not controlled by the KPL in there. Now I have two triggers. If KPL G is on (my all on/off button), turn on All On/Off and Office. The other trigger is to turn things off. Seems to work fine and saves a scene since KPL button E is already in my office scene.

 

On you second bullet point, can a KPL button be a responder? When I drag and drop a KPL button it just goes right into the scene in italics, no choice for controller/responder.

[Michel Kohanim]

-Put your office lights in a scene, say, office with let's say KPL Button B as the controller for that scene. So, now everytime you click on B, all your office lights will turn on/off based on what you did to the button

-Put all your other lights in a scene, say, everything and, say, you make KPL 1 the controller

-Make another scene called, say, my office backlight and drop in KPL B in it as a responder

-Finally, make two triggers conditions based on KPL 1 (everything controller) and have them control the my office backlight scene

 

I think I found a simplier way, I have my office lights in an Office scene. This consists of KPL button E, a switchlinc and an ICON all as controllers (3-way circuit). I created a separate scene called All On/Off and put anything that is not controlled by the KPL in there. Now I have two triggers. If KPL G is on (my all on/off button), turn on All On/Off and Office. The other trigger is to turn things off. Seems to work fine and saves a scene since KPL button E is already in my office scene.

 

On you second bullet point, can a KPL button be a responder? When I drag and drop a KPL button it just goes right into the scene in italics, no choice for controller/responder.

heatvent,

 

You are getting to know more about our product that we do! It's not fair.

 

The answer to your last question is: it will be (KPL button acting as a responder) in our next release.

 

Thanks so very much,

With regards,

[sfhutchi]

Do I have a choice of having a KPL button as a toggle or to simply send the same command every time? I have gotten used to this with Houselinc Desktop and have situations where I want it to toggle (controlling another light in another room) and situations where I want it to send the same command every time (like an All Off command).

[Michel Kohanim]

Do I have a choice of having a KPL button as a toggle or to simply send the same command every time? I have gotten used to this with Houselinc Desktop and have situations where I want it to toggle (controlling another light in another room) and situations where I want it to send the same command every time (like an All Off command).

 

Hi sfhutchi,

 

At the moment, we do not support "programming" KPL beyond button grouping. There are two more functions on KPL which we are "thinking" about implementing:

Toggle/Non-Toggle

Backlight level

 

Unfortunately, though, due to major demand for more elaborate triggers we have been putting all our effort on triggers for our next release.

 

With kind regards,

 

Michel

[Guest]

Do I have a choice of having a KPL button as a toggle or to simply send the same command every time? I have gotten used to this with Houselinc Desktop and have situations where I want it to toggle (controlling another light in another room) and situations where I want it to send the same command every time (like an All Off command).

 

Hi sfhutchi,

 

At the moment, we do not support "programming" KPL beyond button grouping. There are two more functions on KPL which we are "thinking" about implementing:

Toggle/Non-Toggle

Backlight level

 

Unfortunately, though, due to major demand for more elaborate triggers we have been putting all our effort on triggers for our next release.

 

With kind regards,

 

Michel

 

I would vote for backlight level. Very good idea. Any chance this is something that can be programmed on a switchlinc. If you look around techmall.com there are many people who have complained the LED's are too bright.

[sfhutchi]

Based on the current configuration then... how do I use a KPL button to trigger a scene like 'All Off'. This could be a show stopper for me. For example, when I am leaving the house and I have lights, fans, etc.. in various states throughout the house, I want to simply press 'All Off' and head out. Based on what you are saying, I could inadvertently turn everything 'On'... if I was already in the 'All Off' state???

 

Can I program the button to be non-toggle with Houselinc.. .and then use it this way with ISY?

[Michel Kohanim]

Based on the current configuration then... how do I use a KPL button to trigger a scene like 'All Off'. This could be a show stopper for me. For example, when I am leaving the house and I have lights, fans, etc.. in various states throughout the house, I want to simply press 'All Off' and head out. Based on what you are saying, I could inadvertently turn everything 'On'... if I was already in the 'All Off' state???

 

Can I program the button to be non-toggle with Houselinc.. .and then use it this way with ISY?

 

sfhutchi,

 

We are working on a solution. Yes, you can program using HouseLinc; ISY does not touch those memory locations.

 

With regards,

[Guest]

Based on the current configuration then... how do I use a KPL button to trigger a scene like 'All Off'. This could be a show stopper for me. For example, when I am leaving the house and I have lights, fans, etc.. in various states throughout the house, I want to simply press 'All Off' and head out. Based on what you are saying, I could inadvertently turn everything 'On'... if I was already in the 'All Off' state???

 

Can I program the button to be non-toggle with Houselinc.. .and then use it this way with ISY?

 

sfhutchi,

 

We are working on a solution. Yes, you can program using HouseLinc; ISY does not touch those memory locations.

 

With regards,

 

Michel,

 

I guess I don't understand your comment "ISY does not touch those memory locations." Perhaps you could give a 101 on how insteon devices store links, what the multiple memory locations are, how many there are, and how they interact/are accessed. I think this would be important so that everyone can tweak their system the way they want. Also, as like many out there, I started with a bunch of linked devices using Houselinc. Are those links still there? Should I get rid of them to get a clean slate? Etc.?

[GPG]

As Heatvent suggests. a 101 would be very useful. I still have my PLC running, because I need it to run timed events on an x10 devices that I still have working. I wasn't sure, but just to be safe, I deleted all other links using Houselinc. It would be helpful to better understand any implications of using both the PLC and ISY at the same time, along with any impact of using both Houselinc and the ISY software.

[Michel Kohanim]

Do I have a choice of having a KPL button as a toggle or to simply send the same command every time? I have gotten used to this with Houselinc Desktop and have situations where I want it to toggle (controlling another light in another room) and situations where I want it to send the same command every time (like an All Off command).

 

Hi sfhutchi,

 

At the moment, we do not support "programming" KPL beyond button grouping. There are two more functions on KPL which we are "thinking" about implementing:

Toggle/Non-Toggle

Backlight level

 

Unfortunately, though, due to major demand for more elaborate triggers we have been putting all our effort on triggers for our next release.

 

With kind regards,

 

Michel

 

I would vote for backlight level. Very good idea. Any chance this is something that can be programmed on a switchlinc. If you look around techmall.com there are many people who have complained the LED's are too bright.

 

I don't think so! KPL, for some reason or another, has more features than SwitchLinc the most important of which is its capability to take in a ramp rate/on level programmatically (with others, you have to do an airgap). And, I think it's this feature alone that allows it to be more flexible: all and all, we are just setting bits in some memory location which, then, the KPL has to read and reinitialized based on them.

 

With regards,

[Michel Kohanim]

Heatvent and GPG,

 

I am not going to feign mastery of this topic and I urge others to chip in.

 

Each INSTEON device has a database also called a "Link Database"; this is a flat structure of 1024 bytes (1K) which holds all the linkages between this device and other devices. In this database, each link record is 8 bytes long. When you create scenes, using ISY, manual mode, or through HouseLinc, this is the location where all the links are written/read from in a sequential manner. In order to achieve higher performance rates (not having to go through all the links), each link record:

1. Could have an inactive flag (it's neither a slave nor a master)

2. There's a high watermark beyond which no links are valid

 

When you use ISY as the linking tool, ISY starts at the top and overwrites existing links at those addresses but any existing links beyond where ISY last wrote remain intact. If you wish to reset the device (to get rid of all the old links without having to do a reset), all you have to do is to followup with Restore Device (when you click on a device in the tree and right mouse click to get the menu) in which case your device will be in synch with ISY 100% and the highwater mark is moved to where it should be.

 

All INSTEON devices also have some variables that dictate the way they should operate/behave such as on level and ramp rate presets. For KPLs, there are also button grouping, back light level, and toggle mode variables. You can set these variables programmatically but, unfortunately, for these variables to take effect, they have to be written to the volatile memory (load RAM from eeprom). At the moment, the only device that supports reinitializing the RAM is KeypadLinc. As such, when you change the on level/ramp rate for any other device (such as LampLinc or SwitchLinc) you wuold have to do an airgap or unplug the unit and plug it back in for the changes to take effect.

 

ISY, currently, has the capability of updating the following memory locations:

1. On Level -- all devices; requires airgap for any device except KPL

2. Ramp Rate -- all devices; requires airgap for any device except KPL

3. Button Groups -- KPL only; does not require airgap

 

 

We are thinking of adding support for:

4. Backlight level -- KPL only; does not require airgap

5. Toggle vs. non-Toggle -- KPL only; does not require airgap

 

So, if you use your HouseLinc (or other programs) to program the backlight and toggle/non-Toggle, not only ISY would not "care" but also it would not even touch those memory locations. So, you can use your HouseLinc (till we add support) to program the Toggle/Non-Toggle and backlight level, shutdown HouseLinc, and continue using the whole system as nothing ever happened.

 

Lastly, I think there's a misconception that ISY is directing traffice between devices. I have to emphasize that this is not the case. All the programming/linking is done between devices. As such, you can unplug ISY and the whole system should still operate the way you had it designed within ISY.

 

For the sake of completeness, ISY creates a maximum of two links:

1. A group controller link for any device within any scene. This enables you to control the whole scene from ISY (or your computer by extension); i.e. a schedule to turn on the whole house to 10%

2. A master link only in a controller (such as KPL) and a slave link in the PLM. This allows ISY to "listen" in on the activities of the controller (i.e. button pushed) and thus let you do triggers based on those "events".

 

Again, ISY can be totally taken out and the whole system should work as designed. ISY is only there if you need "trigger" and "scheduler" functionality.

 

I hope I've been able to answer some of your questions,

With regards,

Michel

[Guest]

Michel, couldn't have asked for a more thorough response. Thanks.

 

Given what you have posted it might be a good idea to put in the user guide that unless the user is putting in a whole system fresh install, all devices on the network should be restored to erase any previous links past those that ISY overwrites. This might be something that could be added as an automatic feature that could be enabled (something like force network to sync with ISY) if one wants to use ISY as the one and only brain of their system.

[sfhutchi]

This primer helps to explain some things.

I am guessing that I am not the only one that has both Houselinc Desktop (or another pc based system) and ISY running. Why can't ISY read the current links of each device (maybe a menu choice) to get up to speed with where we are already set? Understanding now that ISY first 'ignores' and then simply starts overriding the links previously written but possibly not all... explains why I am starting to see erratic behaviour in my system. It sounds like the options are to use ISY to reset all links, or use Houselinc Desktop to remove all links, and then start from scratch with ISY.

 

I would think that a high percentage of ISY's user base installs this system AFTER they have many links already existing (either manually linked or with external software). At least having a menu option to interrogate the devices and reflect properly with the ISY software would really help. I am not too excited about starting from scratch on this. It also will be an ongoing problem for people that continue to use something like Houselinc Desktop to program their devices.

[Michel Kohanim]

This primer helps to explain some things.

I am guessing that I am not the only one that has both Houselinc Desktop (or another pc based system) and ISY running. Why can't ISY read the current links of each device (maybe a menu choice) to get up to speed with where we are already set? Understanding now that ISY first 'ignores' and then simply starts overriding the links previously written but possibly not all... explains why I am starting to see erratic behaviour in my system. It sounds like the options are to use ISY to reset all links, or use Houselinc Desktop to remove all links, and then start from scratch with ISY.

 

I would think that a high percentage of ISY's user base installs this system AFTER they have many links already existing (either manually linked or with external software). At least having a menu option to interrogate the devices and reflect properly with the ISY software would really help. I am not too excited about starting from scratch on this. It also will be an ongoing problem for people that continue to use something like Houselinc Desktop to program their devices.

 

sfhutchi,

 

We acknowledge the fact that starting afresh is a drawback of using ISY. As a side note, the functionality to "interrogate" a device is already there and that's what we started with but after a few use cases we realized that it's going to cause more confusion than good:

 

If you have a scene with more than one controller and some responders then, interrogating is not sufficient; you would also have to "figure out" if all the responders really belong to the same scene which is something non-trivial. In most cases, we ended up with many disjoint scenes for the same group only because "one" of the devices had an inactive link (for each controller, keep an array of all its responders. At the end of interrogation, go through all the responders for each controller with the same group and see if the resulting set is the same).

 

To make the very long story short, we pulled out the functionality because the users would then have to "merge" scenes and "delete" those not working properly.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation further.

With regards,

[Michel Kohanim]

Michel, couldn't have asked for a more thorough response. Thanks.

 

Given what you have posted it might be a good idea to put in the user guide that unless the user is putting in a whole system fresh install, all devices on the network should be restored to erase any previous links past those that ISY overwrites. This might be something that could be added as an automatic feature that could be enabled (something like force network to sync with ISY) if one wants to use ISY as the one and only brain of their system.

 

heatvent, my pleasure. Yes, I think we might have to do as you suggest. We are deliberating!

 

With regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

Michel, couldn't have asked for a more thorough response. Thanks.

 

Given what you have posted it might be a good idea to put in the user guide that unless the user is putting in a whole system fresh install, all devices on the network should be restored to erase any previous links past those that ISY overwrites. This might be something that could be added as an automatic feature that could be enabled (something like force network to sync with ISY) if one wants to use ISY as the one and only brain of their system.

 

heatvent, my pleasure. Yes, I think we might have to do as you suggest. We are deliberating!

 

With regards,

Michel

 

I have to quote my own quote since I just realized that we do actually provide that feature File->Restore Devices!

 

This feature was put in there precisely because of cases where one needs to synch up Device Links to what's in ISY. For instance, let's assume you had a party where there were a lot of INSTEON experts and they decided to go around your house and do some manual linking (which would not be reflected in ISY). So, after the party, all you do is File->Restore Devices and all your devices will be in synch again with ISY.

 

With regards,

[sfhutchi]

I think that the 'Restore Devices' is what I need.

I am still getting accustomed to your 'scene' functionality where it is writing the links vs. the Houselinc desktop approach that doesn't clarify the scene (as far as I know) and you simply look at what is linked to each of the devices.

 

As someone mentioned, you may include this in the documentation as a 'strong suggestion' to use the 'Restore Devices' feature otherwise you will have some odd linking activity that you may not have visibility to.

[Michel Kohanim]

I think that the 'Restore Devices' is what I need.

I am still getting accustomed to your 'scene' functionality where it is writing the links vs. the Houselinc desktop approach that doesn't clarify the scene (as far as I know) and you simply look at what is linked to each of the devices.

 

As someone mentioned, you may include this in the documentation as a 'strong suggestion' to use the 'Restore Devices' feature otherwise you will have some odd linking activity that you may not have visibility to.

 

sfhutchi,

 

You are right ... also, we have taken your suggestion vis-a-vis Wiki and shall implement one within the next month (after we are done with triggers and X10).

 

Thanks so much and with regards,

[Pioneer]

I saw that you can theoretically change the keypad backlight level -- definitely would like to see that option, but if you add it, I would love to see it be able to be "Scheduled" or "Triggered"...

 

For example I would want to be able to dim the keypad at night after sundown and bright it at sunrise, especially in the bedroom.

[Pioneer]

I think I might have found another variation for All On/Off using scenes and triggers -- but not sure.

 

Example, I want someone to be able to hit "Keypad D" and turn it on -- when it is turned on it will:

 

* Turn off Switch A

* Turn off Switch B

* Turn off Switch C

 

THEN it will itself unlight and turn off... so it works like a pushbutton rather than a toggle.

 

I did it this way:

 

Created a scene (1) with A,B,C as responders

 

Created a second scene (2) with Keypad D as a responder

 

Created a trigger such that when Keypad D is turned on, Scene (1) is turned fast off and Scene (2) is turned fast off

 

When KP D is turned on, A,B,C turn off then D turns off.

 

You could also put Keypad D directly into Scene 1, it does work -- however then you cannot use Scene 1 for other purposes. This is why I think it would be a great feature to be able to trigger Keypad D off directly from the trigger menu and not have to put it in a scene.

[Michel Kohanim]

I saw that you can theoretically change the keypad backlight level -- definitely would like to see that option, but if you add it, I would love to see it be able to be "Scheduled" or "Triggered"...

 

For example I would want to be able to dim the keypad at night after sundown and bright it at sunrise, especially in the bedroom.

 

Backlight will be supported in either 2.3 or 2.4 release. I have added your request (schedule/trigger) to our list of requirements to discuss in our weekly meeting.

 

Thanks for the feedback,

Regards,