Scottmichaelj Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 So a neighbor of mine and I were chatting at the dog park today about his home automation setup, specifically his ZWave and VeraEdge. Since we both have the same builder and same devices, the Honeywell Redlink Total Connect and MyQ garage doors, which he says he can control via the Verde. So I went and looked at the Vera site and man there are a ton of plugins for that controller without a fee. Some/all? of the plugins are "hacks" but there seems to be a huge user base with developers there helping out. So I began to think about how people talk about Apples walled garden but unless you use another node with ISY it seems its the same thing applies here. There are no plugins outside UDI and you have to pay for them. Devs cant sell/offer their plugins directly. Seems like a walled garden to me. I been a ISY user for a longtime but thinking I may have had my head in the sand for too long. Feel free to flame me and tell me I am wrong in my thinking. Link to comment
MWareman Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not going to say you are wrong - but I came from a Vera to ISY. With Vera - others write plugins, and the quality is highly mixed. A year ago (when I last looked at it), the Insteon plugin was awful! And the plugin for my Elk was very unstable for me. With ISY, the API is easy enough for us to write things ourselves, if so inclined. And the Insteon support iss first class. I prefer the latter, but that's just my opinion. Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not going to say you are wrong - but I came from a Vera to ISY. With Vera - others write plugins, and the quality is highly mixed. A year ago (when I last looked at it), the Insteon plugin was awful! And the plugin for my Elk was very unstable for me. With ISY, the API is easy enough for us to write things ourselves, if so inclined. And the Insteon support iss first class. I prefer the latter, but that's just my opinion. No debate here. However it seems if you are going to have to run another node for other devices maybe a Vera would be a good choice in addition to the ISY? Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi huddadudda, I believe in research. This said, getting into hypothetical scenarios usually produces not much of value to research. As such, may I humbly suggest that you get a Vera Edge and play with it? Wouldn't that be an ultimate validation of your hypothesis? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi huddadudda, I believe in research. This said, getting into hypothetical scenarios usually produces not much of value to research. As such, may I humbly suggest that you get a Vera Edge and play with it? Wouldn't that be an ultimate validation of your hypothesis? With kind regards, Michel I have already ordered one. Whats the difference if someone invests in a RasPi $40-50 or Vera $99? $50 more? For the ease of use for someone who is not diverse in linux/scripts the Vera is a better choice IMO. However if we just keep this apples to apples the ISY uses another node such as RasPi to run scripts to interact with other devices. So the Vera would do the same thing. Im not saying that the ISY is an inferior product. I been a longtime user. But there is a "wall" here which forces users to use another node while the Vera does not. Its too bad this is the direction chosen by UDI as I feel if this was truly opened up to all there could be a larger user base and dev base for UDI furthering the product home penetration, in turn more sales of UDI and better for all. I understand very well your business position and stance so there is no need to defend yourself. I am not disagreeing with you either just stating what I see. Which maybe the obvious. Not trying to make trouble just have an open discussion about it. Edit: grammar Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi huddadudda, You are not making any trouble whatsoever: ISY should stand on its own and customers should be able to freely choose between competing products. If an open border system meets your requirements, then Vera is the solution for you. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Javi Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I recently got a status of the entire Vera system from one of the testers for my voice commands app so I could included voice commands for Vera. The Vera does have many plugin, it also has a complicated method of communication with each plugin, so in my opinion this may be great for someone who likes to tinker, it provides little benefit to the average person... If you like to tinker you will find a way to do the same with the isy. Also, in my opinion, I think trying to get a central HUB which controls everything will not be how things are done in the future, but devices, such as the isy, that can do a few things very well and can communicate with other IOT devices will work better than a central controller... The Central controller is an idea of the past not the future, again my opinion. Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 I recently got a status of the entire Vera system from one of the testers for my voice commands app so I could included voice commands for Vera. The Vera does have many plugin, it also has a complicated method of communication with each plugin, so in my opinion this may be great for someone who likes to tinker, it provides little benefit to the average person... If you like to tinker you will find a way to do the same with the isy. Also, in my opinion, I think trying to get a central HUB which controls everything will not be how things are done in the future, but devices, such as the isy, that can do a few things very well and can communicate with other IOT devices will work better than a central controller... The Central controller is an idea of the past not the future, again my opinion. Javi can you explain or define what you think is a "central controller"? I find this interesting, if I understand you correctly, that people like yourself wouldnt want/need a central controller. Systems like Control4, Savant and even to some degree Harmony or Insteon Hub, try somewhat to be all encompassing. Audio/Video integrators make their living trying to make one system do everything.. Why would you not want one? Why would you want an ISY for lighting, then "X" product to do shades, then"X" product to do something else and hope they all talk to each other? Which we surely can agree if they can communicate with each other its hardly easy for the common user. If I was to agree with you and say sure lets have a device for each then we come back to the issue of the garden walls and devices not talking to each other easily. IoT is supposed to be an open protocol to allow device manufacturers produce a device that can talk easily to others. Then I guess then we could discuss if the ISY allows talking to other devices easily and visa versa. Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 huddadudda, IoT is NOT an open protocol for anything. It's not even a protocol. I think what Javi is saying is that you don't need to put everything INSIDE a controller in the same way that you don't need to put a computer inside a brain just so that you can get rid of one extra node in your environment. One communicates with the computer using one's sensory input/output for which the brain has drivers in the same way that ISY commuicates with its surroundings using IP, serial, or otherwise. Should ISY support communicating with more devices? Yes, absolutely and thus Polyglot and 5.0. Should ISY open itself up to brain surgery by just anyone? No, absolutely not. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 huddadudda, IoT is NOT an open protocol for anything. It's not even a protocol. I think what Javi is saying is that you don't need to put everything INSIDE a controller in the same way that you don't need to put a computer inside a brain just so that you can get rid of one extra node in your environment. One communicates with the computer using one's sensory input/output for which the brain has drivers in the same way that ISY commuicates with its surroundings using IP, serial, or otherwise. Should ISY support communicating with more devices? Yes, absolutely and thus Polyglot and 5.0. Should ISY open itself up to brain surgery by just anyone? No, absolutely not. With kind regards, Michel Your absolutely correct Michel IoT is not a protocol and I misspoke. For the sake of argument can we agree there is a suggested "Framework" though for IoT to allow devices to easily communicate with each other? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_Things - subsection "Framework") I also agree with you that opening up the ISY to "brain surgery" as you call it is not a good idea. Again I am not trying to argue just having a discussion here, but why not keep plugins in a sandboxed area on the ISY? Then allowing devs to sell the plugins and take a portion of this ah-la Apple. Or use a RasPi as the ISY "sandbox" and add a new tab on admin console for the plugins to be installed on the Pi and configured? As for Polyglot I think this will be nice for the future for devs to write add ons/plugins/scripts/whatever you want to call them to compliment the ISY. But how this plays out for the "normal end user" who already has possibly a hard time using the ISY and understanding the logic in the programs, to the mix versus a nice GUI will be interesting to see. I have not upgraded to the Beta 5.0 firmware but I am looking forward to seeing what will be available along with the new portal. My hopes is that the portal will be easier to use than an additional Polyglot/RasPi, again especially for the end user. I am also excited to see how Amazon Echo Skills development with the ISY progresses. Link to comment
Javi Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Well written Michel. Why would you not want one? Why would you want an ISY for lighting, then "X" product to do shades, then"X" product to do something else and hope they all talk to each other? Which we surely can agree if they can communicate with each other its hardly easy for the common user.If I was to agree with you and say sure lets have a device for each then we come back to the issue of the garden walls and devices not talking to each other easily. IoT is supposed to be an open protocol to allow device manufacturers produce a device that can talk easily to others. Then I guess then we could discuss if the ISY allows talking to other devices easily and visa versa. The communication problem is exactly that, a problem that needs to be solved, or even a problem that has been created because companies only want you to use there devices. We may need walls but walls with doors! I like the ISY better then anything else I have tried or researched but if an electrical switch came out tomorrow that could save a small program and communicate with my other devices it would be the beginning of the end for the ISY switch interface I use today, fortunately for the UD I doubt this will be anytime soon. Devices are already beginning to surfice with some of the capabilities I mentioned but the are still in there infancy and in my opining following the wrong business model for long term success. All of us have been able to do things that the ring door bell does but making it into and independent unit has probably sold more ring devices than the ISY. The Amazon Echo, from what I hear, is the best voice recognition device ever created if they would just let programmers at the raw command (with a key to the door provided by the OWNER of the echo) then I would buy one. The human interface, in the echo case voice, only needs to send a command to the device which executes the command, it should not have to go through 3 to 5 devices to access the device which executes the command. So your echo should communicate with the TV not to the portal, then the ISY then the Harmony then the TV. So I do not think the ISY or the Vera is the human interface, they are the programmers/installers interface....I would love to continue the rant tonight but have a cold beer waiting Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Hi huddadudda Or use a RasPi as the ISY "sandbox" and add a new tab on admin console for the plugins to be installed on the Pi and configured?You are describing Polyglot! With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Scottmichaelj Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 Hi huddadudda You are describing Polyglot! With kind regards, Michel So will we be able to install plugins from the ISY side to the RasPi or do we need to configure the Pi ourselves? My point is "ease of use" for end users who dont know or want to know how to use a Pi. It appears the Verde installs the plugin with a couple clicks. So will Polyglot be a preconfigured SD image that can be loaded on the Pi, then a couple clicks on the ISY to use the plugin? Not sure I am explaining myself clearly here. Link to comment
Teken Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Hello Huddadudda, To your question about plugins and why certain devices seem to have more support for them. I have thought about this question for many years as I know many others have too. In my time as an outside observer for many things in life. Its apparent the majority of people gravitate to what is cheap, simple, and intuitive. To offer all three in any kind of device is apparently extremely complex and hard to do if one considers all of the technical requirements to make it so. Since you're such a Apple fan I will offer some examples of simple (on the surface) but highly complex to execute and obtain. The famous swipe to unlock, 3D touch, touch ID, Siri, Peek, Panorama, etc. On a related tangent but applies equally in this context: Voice, Face, Music recognition. All of the above technologies have been in development in various forms in military, industrial, and scientific domains. Only now in the last ten years has this incredible ease of use, power, flexibility, and capability been afforded to the masses. All of the above tech has been supported and brought to bare to the public via tens of millions of dollars in R&D and support from various industries. On the other side of the coin of this conversation are small companies like UDI who obviously do not have the same financing or funding to do the same. But what they lack in financial resources they surely make up in brain power and creative trouble shooting to obtain similar outcomes. From personal experience and watching many forums and reading tens of thousands of threads. Simply using the Insteon HUB / Vera (name any flavor) is that out of 100% pie this has been the outcome. 100% of the people have purchased the HUB because it was cheap, simple, and had a clean UI. Of those 100%, 50% of those owners either returned them or sold them off with in the first twelve months. The remaining 50% of the HUB users kept the controller but (approx) 25% of those stopped using it because the device could not provide enough features and control when compared to the ISY Series Controller. The remaining 25% just migrated to the ISY Series Controller knowing there was just more possibility and development for this product. With respect to the Vera Controller based on forum posts there is a slow migration heading toward UDI and their ISY Series Controller in large part because it now supports Z-Wave. Its safe to say if UDI had not decided to go this route their future would have been limited and sales would have depended on Insteon. When people consider controllers like Wink, Revolv or similar and consider the massive following these companies were able to garner at launch. What was the final outcome of those two companies? History has proven also even if you have more money then God it does not always translate to success in the market. People only need to consider companies like Microsoft think first generation surface tablet. That was a 100 million fail for this huge company. Google, consider the amount of money and resources they spent on pushing Chrome Books, tablets, phones, etc. The bulk of the companies who supported the above have lost more money then Microsoft in the Surface tablet endeavor! Intel, is undoubtedly one of the greatest companies in the world but they too have missed the boat in thinking ARM processing would never take hold or take market share from them. Wrong, and a complete fail . . . Apple, Broadcom, NVIDIA, Qualcom, etc have all proven they are able to produce desk top class low power, highly efficient, and fast processors that compete head to head with old technology. As you can see with the above examples, in life its a gamble on which side of the coin of win or lose a company will be. The biggest failure of any company are following fads or trying to reinvent the wheel. In the market (generally speaking) you either offer something for less or offer more (perceived) value. Apple folks perceive more value and hence the amazing prices they are able to garner for their wares. People who own Android devices who are honest know full well the base system is a toy and open to crashing, hacking, and limited eco system support. Everyone knows you can buy a comparable PC, laptop, name any other media device at 30-50% cheaper then a Apple product. What Apple brings to the table is tight integration, style, and ease of use which simply makes sense to the masses. The ability to dumb down such high technology to a 10 - 80 year old person is something that can not be understated. It goes with out saying most Apple products are on a physical level *feel* solid and most people who are honest would say it feels like you got something for your money. Anyone who has held or used any Android comparable device know that isn't the same. The ISY Series Controller feels solid and history has proven there is value for that initial investment.Unlike Apple UDI does not offer a lot of other products for the consumer to purchase that are not core related to HA. Having said this its apparent UDI has began the transition to support more services and devices in the past not available before. I would like to think if Smartlabs got off their aszz and finalized sale of Insteon chips for the UDI developed international PLM. Where, and what features and services would be available to the end user now? With respect to plugins as MWaremen indicated most of the software were hacks and had very little development. I would prefer to pay someone who offered something solid and robust and had an eye toward development instead of a flash in the pan. Ultimately the sleeping giant we all call Smartlabs appears to be waking up! The investment in time and resources to support Apple Home Kit, Amazon Echo, Harmony, etc. Are all signs somebody is either listening or just jumping on the fan wagon. The detriment to UDI is if Smartlabs ever grabs a brain and decides to incorporate conditional logic, diagnostics (HL2) services, and local access & control. Never mind a global PLM which I documented is already in the works! Should all of this come to be its quite apparent a change in philosophy of supporting more hardware in the HA world is a given. In 2016 its safe to say we are going to see more companies offer multi protocol devices which support Z-Wave, Zigbee. Sadly there won't be many that support Insteon . . . Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Hi huddadudda, You won't need Pi expertise or anything else for that matter. It should be as easy as installing our existing modules. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
lilyoyo1 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 As a person that has been blessed to have the opportunity to mess around with more systems than the avg. person, I must say, the ISY is still my go to controller. Vera has many plugins that you can use which gives the impression of a better system than the ISY. However it is the typical Jack of all trades. Those plug ins work but they feel incomplete as if something is missing. For the avg. user that just wants basic control that a plugin provides it is ok. But if you want more then you will be SOL. Forget about when your stuck and there is no one there to help. Forget about the plugin developer being to busy to update the plugin or fix a bug. Let's not talk about the biggest one at all where they drop support completely. I prefer UDI's method of bringing a feature to the device that works great and not just ok. Would I prefer more. Yes. But quality is worth waiting for. Link to comment
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