kohai Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 <opinion> Python is absolutely the correct language to use. I'm not cool enough for python either, but I'm learning. Java is the wrong language for this - in addition to the memory requirements for the JVM, that language will "close off" node servers for a big segment of the folks on this forum. I feel that many folks here are capable of writing or at least of modifying an existing node server written in Python, but only a very few have the programming skills to tackle a full threaded networking Java application with the requisite development environment (eclipse, etc). I like Perl - but my attempt to write a simple node server in Perl, as an example of how to do it, exposes exactly why you don't want to do this in Perl! Lack of a rich threading model is probably the biggest problem, IMO. Which really leaves Python as the last language standing. It's accessible (i.e. you don't need eclipse, or jetbeans, and a full multi-hundred-MB JDK, and Java coding experience). It has a rich, standard threading model. It runs on many different platforms, should that be the direction in the future. And it's far more readable than Perl, and far easier on memory than Java. So for the above reasons, IMO Python is the right answer. </opinion> Thanks Michel! I fall into the camp of being able to (maybe) take an existing node or examples and patch together a working node. I'm want to make a go of it with my lighting system. I read through the polyglot docs today and the example... it's digesting in my brain.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Hello everyone, Thanks so very much for the feedback. I have also been investigating node.js ... it seems to be quite robust and low resource needs. Again, if opening up the source code will help, please do let us know. With kind regards, Michel
lilyoyo1 Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Hi Teken, IFTTT is yet another one of those cloud services that we will support using the ISY Portal (albeit quite reluctantly as it moves logic to the cloud). As far as Sonos, I agree! Last night, I asked Echo to play some music and since I have recently started looking into audio distribution system for our home (Sonos, Nuvo, Russuound), I wondered whether or not Amazon would ever get into distributed audio. For my purposes, the only thing missing is audio zones since all I want is the ability to play radio, music, playlists and then choose where each is played (or all play the same thing) ... I guess I will wait a few more months! With kind regards, Michel I'm actually picking up a Russound system myself. I would go for that. I'm hoping to be able to integrate it with my ISY in the future since it can already to connect to Control 4, Fibaro, and others.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 I'm actually picking up a Russound system myself. I would go for that. I'm hoping to be able to integrate it with my ISY in the future since it can already to connect to Control 4, Fibaro, and others. Please look at Casatunes for distributed audio as well. http://www.casatunes.com My company installs these in high end homes and they have open REST APIs fully documented. I can use Alexa to turn it on/off/zones/vol etc. PM me if you are interested in buying one. /shameless plug sorry
ccclapp Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 I would very much welcome (and pay for) pre-packaged robust Sonos support. Ditto for Harmony Hub.
bruceyeg Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 My ISY controls a fairly extensive Insteon system with about 400 ISY programs, 70 devices, 22 motion sensors and about 40 KPL buttons and remotes. However, since this thread is about Sonos, I thought it might be of interest that I've just finished setting up control of a fairly extensive whole house Sonos audio system using Harmony Ultimate remotes and hubs. I am very happy that UDI is planning to support Sonos. Here are some comments on setting up whole house Sonos audio controlled by Harmony hubs. I use 4 Sonos Connects. One feeds audio to the speakers of an old AVR (6 speakers) and a wireless FM speaker transmitter (6 speakers). I call this Sonos Connect my "AudioHub". I also have 5 PLAY1 speakers. To get whole house audio using 17 speakers, I play my audio over AudioHub and group my Play1 speakers to it. My other 3 Sonos Connects receive audio from various locations in my home where I have audio devices that are controlled by Harmony Hubs. For example, my main Family Room entertainment center TV feeds audio into a Sonos connect and I play this audio throughout my house by configuring AudioHub to play the LineIn from this Sonos Connect. I can also listen to audio from my PC because there is a Sonos Connect whose LineIn is my PC Audio. I can also listen to audio from my bedroom audio system because I have another Sonos connect whose LineIn is the audio from my bedroom TV. I bought the Harmony Hubs because I listen to my bedroom TV audio in the kitchen and need to control that audio remotely. I listen to the audio from my main Family Room TV in my study and need to control what plays through my Family Room TV remotely. Before I bought the Harmony Hubs and remotes, I controlled my Sonos system using an Android app called Macronos. This app creates a widget which you just tap to completely reconfigure Sonos. A Macronos widget works exactly like an "Activity" in the Harmony remote. Macronos only controls Sonos, but it is far more powerful than any activity you can set up for the Harmony remote. The current limitations of the Harmony Hubs are 1. you can only control one Sonos device in a "Listen to Sonos" activity. 2. you cannot group Sonos devices, but you can group them with the Sonos app and use Harmony to play to the whole group. 3. when you play to a Sonos group of speakers, the Harmony remote can turn the volume up/down and mute only the single Sonos device that Harmony controls, and not the whole group. In other words, Sonos has both a Group Volume, and a separate volume for each device in the group. The Harmony Hubs cannot control group volume or mute the whole group. 4. there is no obvious way to play the LineIn of one Sonos device over a different Sonos device. On the other hand, Macronos doesn't have any of these problems. A Macronos macro can play any LineIn, Sonos favorite or Playlist over any of your Sonos devices and group them any way you want. Its macros let you choose the volume of each device separately for each macro. Macronos only works on Android because of Apple's restrictions on iOS. My whole house audio depends on being able to play the LineIn inputs from the Sonos connects in my bedroom, family room and PC room over my 4th Sonos Connect "AudioHub". I've solved this problem with an amazing workaround. This is very subtle. When you set up a Harmony Hub you choose whether to set up a "Watch TV" type of activity or a "Listen to Sonos" type of activity. There are profound differences between these 2 types of activity. A "Watch TV" activity lets you include any number of Sonos devices in the activity, but a "Listen to Sonos" activity only allows you to include a single Sonos device. There is an even more profound and subtle difference which I had to exploit in order to play the LineIn of one Sonos Connect over a different Sonos Connect. When I set up my "Watch TV" activity I included 3 devices: my TV, my PVR, and my Sonos AudioHub. However, when setting up this activity the Harmony setup app didn't ask me if I'd like to control the volume of my TV using AudioHub. The only choices were my TV itself and my PVR. So I chose TV. To control the volume of the TV when it plays through AudioHub, I had to finish setting up "Watch TV" and then edit the buttons on my remote. I told the setup app that I wanted to change the remote's buttons for "Watch TV" and that I wanted the buttons to control AudioHub. Then I was able to make the volume up/down and mute buttons on my Harmony remote control the volume up/down and mute buttons on AudioHub. This means that my AVR and FM wirelesss speakers that are connected to the LineOut of AudioHub can change their volume or be muted. I still have the problem of how to make my TV audio play over AudioHub. It turns out that when I was assigning buttons on my remote so that they could control various functions of AudioHub, one of the functions that I could control was "LineIn". So I created a "LineIn" button on my remote and played with it to see what it would do. What I found out is amazing. If I run the "Watch TV" activity using my Harmony remote and press the LineIn button, it causes AudioHub to play a LineIn. The LineIn that it plays turns out to not be it's own LineIn, but the LineIn of whatever Sonos device was used previously in the most recent "Listen to Sonos" activity. This is the key. Before I run the Watch TV activity, I first run one of the following 4 "Listen to Sonos" activities. Which one determines what will play over AudioHub when I run Watch TV abd press the LineIn button: My 4 Listen to Sonos activities are: 1 Sonos Favorites. Uses AudioHub. Naturally when I play a Sonos favorite, it want to hear it all over my house. The LineIn on AudioHub has a Google Chromecast audio receiver. 2. TV Audio. This is the Sonos connect whose LineIn gets the audio from my Family room TV. 3. Bed TV Audio. This is the Sonos connect whose LineIn gets audio from my bedroom TV. 4. PC Audio. This is the Sonos connect whose LineIn gets audio from my PC. I run one of these 4 activities, and then I run Watch TV and press the LineIn button on my Harmony remote. That causes AudioHub to play audio from one of these 4 inputs. OK. That's the current situation with whole house Sonos audio and Harmony Hubs. When UDI implements control over Sonos, I'm hoping that you can make it a lot better. Make it possible to group speakers. Make it possible to play the LineIn from one Sonos connect over another Sonos device or group of devices. When Sonos devices are grouped, make it possible to set the volume of each speaker in the group individually. I'm really looking forward to using my ISY with Sonos. Bruce
Teken Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 Hello Bruce, I don't own a Sonos so would appreciate any insight you could offer. Can the play 1 speaker connect to a router over WiFi with out any other device in the system? I ask because some articles I read indicated a hub was included with some of the special two packs. I know each speaker has a wired Ethernet port at the rear to connect to a router. But wanted to know if the speaker can natively connect to a router over the air instead?
mwester Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 At least one Sonos device needs to be connected to a wired network; they will form a wifi-based mesh network among themselves using their own wifi network (you can, if you need to, tell it what wifi channel to use). In the case of wifi, they do NOT route through your wifi router -- although each will get an IP address from your router, they don't use your router to communicate with each other. As for wired - I think the answer differs with models. It's my understanding that in general, when you plug them into your wired network, they do not use that wired network to replace their own wifi, except that each unit that IS plugged into your wired network will use that to reach out to the music source. There's a bridge device, which is only useful in any way at all if you do not have a LAN connection near the place you want to put your very expensive SONOS speakers -- in that case, you put the bridge in that location, and it then becomes the bridge that allows the SONOS mesh network to reach out to get the music streams, etc. I once embarked on an effort to plug all my SONOS devices into my LAN, thinking it would somehow make things better. All it did was expose lots of wires in places I didn't want them with no apparent difference in performance of either my network or the SONOS gear. Total waste of time! So one of them is plugged in now, I did make sure that their wifi channel is well-separated from the one I use for my wifi network, and that's how they are to this day. Zero problems, zero maintenance. And at least one set of them (usually the full 5.1 setup) is running from dawn to dusk; I like my music! So I'd notice it if there was a problem. (Oh how I wish Insteon worked as well as the SONOS network! Of course, if you paid $hundreds per switch, perhaps they would!)
Teken Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 I was afraid that's what you were going to say. I literally missed the boat on the play 1 two pack which came with the hub during the Boxing Day sale. I don't know, but doesn't it strike anyone a bit odd a wifi device can't connect to a router?!? ===== In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
bruceyeg Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Regarding Teken's question: My first Sonos devices were a Connect and a CR100 controller. I attached the Connect to my gigabit Ethernet. The obsolete CR100 is a wireless Sonos controller that originally cost me about $600. Because it was wireless, it would lose its connection to my Sonos Connect occasionally. I never had any problems with the Connect dropping off my network. I still use my CR100 every day as it is a great little hand held Sonos controller. I did originally have a problem getting the Connect to operate wirelessly and communicate with my CR100. Sonos has incredibly good tech support and they solved my problem. The problem is interesting and gives some insight into Sonos. WiFi uses the 2.4 GHz band that has 16 channels. But WiFi groups the channels together and uses 5 consecutive channels. Thus, if you set WiFi to use channel 1, it actually uses channels 1,2,3,4 and 5. If you use channel 6 it actually uses channels 6,7,8,9 and 10. And WiFi on channel 11 uses 11,12,13,14 and 15. You get optimum throughput on WiFi if you only use channels 1, 6, or 11. If you use channel 4, it actually uses 4,5,6,7,8 which blocks the signals on both channel 1 and 6. When I got my Sonos working, I had WiFi on channel 1, a TV transmitter on channel 6 and Sonos network on channel 11. But the data on these 3 channels used different protocols. My TV signal was an analog signal from a video camera. Sonos and WiFi use different protocols (I think). To get my Sonos working, I was able to make my Sonos Connect send a huge amount of information to the Sonos tech support. They figured out that the signal on channel 6 from my TV video-camera was causing Sonos to mess up. All I had to do is turn off my video-camera transmitter while setting up Sonos. Once Sonos was functioning on Channel 11, I could turn my video-camera back on and everything worked. After that I switched my old analog video-cameras to 6 IP cameras. If Sonos devices use a different wireless protocol than WiFi, they probably use a different protocol over Ethernet than TCP/IP. I remember the old days when we ran TCP/IP, AppleTalk, and the Novell network over the same Ethernet cable. The packets coexist even when the packets use different protocols. My Sonos Connects all use wired Ethernet. My Play1 speakers are all wireless. In my bedroom I have a pair of Play1 speakers and are set up to act as a single stereo pair. One speaker is L and the other is R. Sometimes the audio drops out on one of these speakers while the other keeps playing. This must be caused by poor wireless reception for one speaker. I'm planning to connect this speaker to Ethernet, which is nearby and easy to do. I expect that would eliminate the very rare dropouts on that speaker. The posting by mwester claims connecting the speaker to Ethernet won't make a difference. If that were the case, why would they even bother to put an Ethernet connector in the back of every Sonos device? My Sonos devices all have IP addresses. I setup my router to reserve an IP address for each speaker. I got the Black Friday deal of 2 Play1 speakers. I was so pleased that I bought another pair. These 4 plus the one I bought a year ago on a special deal (I year of Deezer for free) explains my 5 Play1 speakers. I think you could get started with Sonos with just a single Play1 speaker which you would have to connect to Ethernet. You could control it using the Sonos app on a phone or tablet, or the Sonos app in Windows. With the app you could play any of about 100 internet music services and well as music from a NAS drive on your network. My old wireless FM speakers chatter when Insteon is signaling. Both use 900 MHz. The chatter helps me guess what's going on with Insteon. The music quality over Sonos is fantastic so I'm phasing out all my old speakers and replacing them with Sonos. Bruce
Teken Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 Regarding Teken's question: My first Sonos devices were a Connect and a CR100 controller. I attached the Connect to my gigabit Ethernet. The obsolete CR100 is a wireless Sonos controller that originally cost me about $600. Because it was wireless, it would lose its connection to my Sonos Connect occasionally. I never had any problems with the Connect dropping off my network. I still use my CR100 every day as it is a great little hand held Sonos controller. I did originally have a problem getting the Connect to operate wirelessly and communicate with my CR100. Sonos has incredibly good tech support and they solved my problem. The problem is interesting and gives some insight into Sonos. WiFi uses the 2.4 GHz band that has 16 channels. But WiFi groups the channels together and uses 5 consecutive channels. Thus, if you set WiFi to use channel 1, it actually uses channels 1,2,3,4 and 5. If you use channel 6 it actually uses channels 6,7,8,9 and 10. And WiFi on channel 11 uses 11,12,13,14 and 15. You get optimum throughput on WiFi if you only use channels 1, 6, or 11. If you use channel 4, it actually uses 4,5,6,7,8 which blocks the signals on both channel 1 and 6. When I got my Sonos working, I had WiFi on channel 1, a TV transmitter on channel 6 and Sonos network on channel 11. But the data on these 3 channels used different protocols. My TV signal was an analog signal from a video camera. Sonos and WiFi use different protocols (I think). To get my Sonos working, I was able to make my Sonos Connect send a huge amount of information to the Sonos tech support. They figured out that the signal on channel 6 from my TV video-camera was causing Sonos to mess up. All I had to do is turn off my video-camera transmitter while setting up Sonos. Once Sonos was functioning on Channel 11, I could turn my video-camera back on and everything worked. After that I switched my old analog video-cameras to 6 IP cameras. If Sonos devices use a different wireless protocol than WiFi, they probably use a different protocol over Ethernet than TCP/IP. I remember the old days when we ran TCP/IP, AppleTalk, and the Novell network over the same Ethernet cable. The packets coexist even when the packets use different protocols. My Sonos Connects all use wired Ethernet. My Play1 speakers are all wireless. In my bedroom I have a pair of Play1 speakers and are set up to act as a single stereo pair. One speaker is L and the other is R. Sometimes the audio drops out on one of these speakers while the other keeps playing. This must be caused by poor wireless reception for one speaker. I'm planning to connect this speaker to Ethernet, which is nearby and easy to do. I expect that would eliminate the very rare dropouts on that speaker. The posting by mwester claims connecting the speaker to Ethernet won't make a difference. If that were the case, why would they even bother to put an Ethernet connector in the back of every Sonos device? My Sonos devices all have IP addresses. I setup my router to reserve an IP address for each speaker. I got the Black Friday deal of 2 Play1 speakers. I was so pleased that I bought another pair. These 4 plus the one I bought a year ago on a special deal (I year of Deezer for free) explains my 5 Play1 speakers. I think you could get started with Sonos with just a single Play1 speaker which you would have to connect to Ethernet. You could control it using the Sonos app on a phone or tablet, or the Sonos app in Windows. With the app you could play any of about 100 internet music services and well as music from a NAS drive on your network. My old wireless FM speakers chatter when Insteon is signaling. Both use 900 MHz. The chatter helps me guess what's going on with Insteon. The music quality over Sonos is fantastic so I'm phasing out all my old speakers and replacing them with Sonos. Bruce Hello Bruce, Much thanks for the insight and clarification of the Sono's inner workings. I suppose its not the end of the world having to wire the first play 1 to Ethernet. But really am shocked that its even required given its 2016 and the trend is WiFi these days. Don't get me wrong 90% of my home is hardwired in every aspect whether it be for Security, Audio / Video, Camera, Computers etc. It just never ceases to amaze me right when I decide to let go and try my hand in something that is wireless. I find the product is hobbled and requires an actual wired solution to make it fully operational! Just wow . . .
dywicked Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Hello Bruce, Much thanks for the insight and clarification of the Sono's inner workings. I suppose its not the end of the world having to wire the first play 1 to Ethernet. But really am shocked that its even required given its 2016 and the trend is WiFi these days. Don't get me wrong 90% of my home is hardwired in every aspect whether it be for Security, Audio / Video, Camera, Computers etc. It just never ceases to amaze me right when I decide to let go and try my hand in something that is wireless. I find the product is hobbled and requires an actual wired solution to make it fully operational! Just wow . . . All, Sonos hasn't required a wired connection for for over a year now: http://blog.sonos.com/news/introducing-an-even-simpler-sonos I used to run with a bridge, but I have since removed it from my network and none of my Sonos devices are wired - works perfectly (although I have very good wifi coverage). Best, -David
Teken Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 All, Sonos hasn't required a wired connection for for over a year now: http://blog.sonos.com/news/introducing-an-even-simpler-sonos I used to run with a bridge, but I have since removed it from my network and none of my Sonos devices are wired - works perfectly (although I have very good wifi coverage). Best, -David David, OMG, I thank you so very much for offering this insight and facts! Given the above it looks like some of these X-MAS gift certificates can finally be used. I thank you so very much Sir!
bruceyeg Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 Thanks David for the Sonos blog on running Sonos over only WiFi. Sonos's works like Insteon. Just as Insteon runs an RF mesh network at 915 MHz, Sonos runs Sonosnet on channel 11 of my 2.4 GHz band. Just as Insteon has powerline communications, Sonos has Ethernet. Sonos is like Insteon in that it uses a dual band mesh network. What Sonos did to make it work only over WiFi is this. They switched the radios that run Sonosnet to use WiFi protocols. Then Ethernet isn't needed. This turns Sonos into a WiFi only speaker system. If Smarthome did the same thing with Insteon, they would advertise that you didn't need poweline communications anymore. No PLM. Just RF. I'm sure my Sonos works a lot better because I use both Ethernet and Sonosnet. In my bedroom I have a Sonos speaker in a location that cannot get WiFi. I tried to get a Chromecast to work in this location and it rarely had a WiFi signal. However, a Sonos speaker in this location works great. The three Play1 speakers on my bedroom are on Sonosnet. Nearby is a Sonos Connect which is on both Ethernet and Sonosnet. My bedroom Sonos speakers get a solid connection to Sononet by connecting to the hotspot on my bedroom Sonos Connect. Sonos does state in its blog that even though you can use Sonos without Ethernet, the best performance is with Ethernet and Sonosnet. Bruce
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