Suggestions on Energy Metering

[larryllix]

You running a hot tub? With the lid off?

[Teken]

Of course "working from home" really means playing the PS4 on my Plasma TV during my 8hr workday. HA!

 

I think I am going to do as suggested and see about getting a moderately priced energy monitoring device that I can plug directly to the circuits on the panel and log my energy usage. Some items I just may not have really control over or care to change my habits on, like running the HVAC fan 24/7 to purify the air. The thing is I haven't change my habits much from my past home (built and bought new in 2006) which was about 3200 sq ft with similar HVAC system, etc. Now this newer home is about 1000 sq ft larger and I am using triple the KWH, plus my last home had a pool. So I am just sitting here a bit bewildered about my energy consumption. I was even gone on for the holidays and my home still had around 30-40kwh of use!

 

I believe we are going to need a little more insight to be helpful. If you really do consume 100 KWH per day its safe to say you have a serious life changing event coming your way.

 

I would ask you to offer the group the last 12 months of (monthly) electrical bills simply broken down from Jan - Dec.

 

This will offer factual information about your consumption. Next is understanding what is on and for how long it won't offers us the watts / KWH used but most of us will have a general sense of what device is a large consumer.

 

Your HVAC is a given and that will consume from 400 - 800 watts thats a given. Will need more details as to what is on from light, how many, there wattage, along with anything else you're running.

 

I know you indicated you don't have a deep freezer  but have wine coolers etc. The one's I have seen depending on size consume 1 - 3 KWH per day.

 

Not sure what kind of hot water tank you have because if you have an electric one and don't track your usage this single component will costs you 20 - 50% of your energy consumption.

 

Trust me I know . . .

[Scottmichaelj]

I believe we are going to need a little more insight to be helpful. If you really do consume 100 KWH per day its safe to say you have a serious life changing event coming your way.

 

I would ask you to offer the group the last 12 months of (monthly) electrical bills simply broken down from Jan - Dec.

 

This will offer factual information about your consumption. Next is understanding what is on and for how long it won't offers us the watts / KWH used but most of us will have a general sense of what device is a large consumer.

 

Your HVAC is a given and that will consume from 400 - 800 watts thats a given. Will need more details as to what is on from light, how many, there wattage, along with anything else you're running.

 

I know you indicated you don't have a deep freezer but have wine coolers etc. The one's I have seen depending on size consume 1 - 3 KWH per day.

 

Not sure what kind of hot water tank you have because if you have an electric one and don't track your usage this single component will costs you 20 - 50% of your energy consumption.

 

Trust me I know . . .

Teken appreciate the help, info and insight but I think at this point its best that I get a energy monitor. This way I will have real information and not guessing. Then armed with the data I can decide how to proceed. At this point I am interested in monitoring devices as I did export my true usage data from the energy co and thats how I found out I use so much based on my avg.

[Scottmichaelj]

So those of you with actual energy monitoring devices is it pretty easy to install? It looks like I have to shut the power off at the panel, remove the circuit cover, then unscrew and remove the wire going to the circuit breaker, feed the wire through the meter loop and then plug and screw the wire back into the circuit. Is that correct? If I dont want to go that far I would need to get all "C" clamp style connections for the panel? To permanently mount it then do you make a hole through the breaker cover to feed the wires through out to the data logger? Just confirming the process/install. For me it might be worth spending the extra money for the "C" clamp style so I dont have to disconnect each wire from the circuit. I have a full Square D panel and then a subpanel.

[Teken]

Teken appreciate the help, info and insight but I think at this point its best that I get a energy monitor. This way I will have real information and not guessing. Then armed with the data I can decide how to proceed. At this point I am interested in monitoring devices as I did export my true usage data from the energy co and thats how I found out I use so much based on my avg.

 

Understood and it makes sense for sure . . .

 

But, what are you willing to change to obtain said KWH goals / targets? Lets assume you find out that air purifier thing running 24.7.365 is consuming 10 KWH.

 

Will you change the run time to reduce the energy use?

 

If we move further down the rabbit hole and find out you have (making this up so bare with me) that you have two wine coolers and the combined load is 12 KWH.

 

Are you going to throw them out?

 

As I stated up above in the *Novel* when people move from monitoring to management these two things often times conflict with real world use cases or wants. All of the things I listed regarding energy management are un-sexy but truly control and manage global energy use.

 

But the key aspect is lifestyle, comfort, and user amenities . . .

 

If say you have a hot tub it goes with out saying I don't care who you are. If you believe you're going to save any energy with a pig like that running your dreaming. Everyone knows something like that will cost you dearly and that is a trade off with luxury items like those.

 

As you probably know too well if you own a pool unless you don't give a crap about how clean it is or even use it. That thing will costs you huge bucks during the course of the year that just expected.

 

In another thread which relates to Larry's TSTAT comparion's we have another member who likes to keep his home nice and cozy.

 

Nothing wrong with that but the simple fact and reality is its going to cost you for heating  / cooling for that privilege! This is why when people come to me and ask *Hey Teken whats the best energy monitor out there* I rarely reply back with whats the best.

 

Because ultimately it comes down to knowing this is more a curiosity for most and they rarely if ever get past that first stage. When they realize that energy monitoring has no relations to energy management and it actually requires more money and time and a change in habits and lifestyle

 

All bets are off . . .

 

I can honestly count on one hand over 25 years that I have met someone here or in real life that has taken on every thing I have stated above in any small measure.

 

They believe just because they bought 99 LED bulbs instead of investing that massive amount of money into small but critical basic things like sealing up their home, adding in more insulation was a better investment?

 

There's a reason people like me who live in the frigid north are still alive. Its because our homes are extremely well built, tight, and well insulated. Keeping in mind we are talking about even the average track home and we haven't even gotten to how my home is built or things I have done to make it even more efficient and comfortable.

 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to share with you because my view is before anyone gets all caught up with 50 - 10K energy monitoring basics like turning down the TSTAT, reduce your XBOX use from 24 hours to 4.

 

Will make tangible differences and you will still be able to kill that sniper!

 

Ha . . . 

[Teken]

So those of you with actual energy monitoring devices is it pretty easy to install? It looks like I have to shut the power off at the panel, remove the circuit cover, then unscrew and remove the wire going to the circuit breaker, feed the wire through the meter loop and then plug and screw the wire back into the circuit. Is that correct? If I dont want to go that far I would need to get all "C" clamp style connections for the panel? To permanently mount it then do you make a hole through the breaker cover to feed the wires through out to the data logger? Just confirming the process/install. For me it might be worth spending the extra money for the "C" clamp style so I dont have to disconnect each wire from the circuit. I have a full Square D panel and then a subpanel.

 

Yes . . .

 

Keeping in mind every service panel has knock outs so you will simply push one out and run your wire through a proper wire clip.

[Scottmichaelj]

Yes . . .

 

Keeping in mind every service panel has knock outs so you will simply push one out and run your wire through a proper wire clip.

I agree with you! I already stated I may not change but I do want to know my pigs. Then I can put lipstick on her and pretty her up instead of guessing which pig is the ugliest! Lol

 

My panel is FULL with most being dual circuit breakers and there are no knockouts! Thats why I asked the question. My only option would be to drill a hole and then put a rubber grommet in to make it nice I guess, just dont know if its code. Also to keep cords clean and wire management are zip ties ok to use or should I use velco straps? Should heat from the electrical current be a consideration for what I use?

 

Edit: Added photo

 

 

[Teken]

I agree with you! I already stated I may not change but I do want to know my pigs. Then I can put lipstick on her and pretty her up instead of guessing which pig is the ugliest! Lol

 

My panel is FULL with most being dual circuit breakers and there are no knockouts! Thats why I asked the question. My only option would be to drill a hole and then put a rubber grommet in to make it nice I guess, just dont know if its code. Also to keep cords clean and wire management are zip ties ok to use or should I use velco straps? Should heat from the electrical current be a consideration for what I use?

 

Edit: Added photo

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452463649.956313.jpg

 

- You can use either Velcro, Zip Ties, Twist Ties doesn't matter so long as they don't touch anything else in the panel.

- There is no large currents flowing through the CT's at all so no worries.

- Any wire conductor must exist the OEM panel enclosure you can not drill a hole in the front of the panel.

- Ensure you purchase enough CT's to cover 240 VAC circuits that use a neutral. 

 

- You should fully understand if the primary feed uses Aluminum wire vs Copper as the formal is much thicker so look at the I.D. specs for the primary 100, 200, 400 clamp on CT's.

 

Understood about the lip stick on the pig but note having a new shiny squish toy won't get you to NET Zero. Lower energy consumption the key word *consumption* requires a change in lifestyle, equipment, sealing, insulation, etc.

 

Ex. My communication closet used 1800 watts 24.7.365. My 12 blade servers consumed 3600 watts running 24.7.365. My eight APC Symmetra full time UPS system consumed 1200 watts.

 

There was zero chance I would ever see a 8 KWH day, ever . . .

[Teken]

Here is a perfect example of what I consumed for the month of December 2015. I want you to take a hard look at the monthly total of 410. 172 KWH.

 

That's a month in the arctic cold . . .

 

Next is June 2015 do you see the monthly energy consumption its 297.022 KWH. You indicate you consume 100 KWH per day, not per month but per day!

 

My dear friend Barry G uses 100 KWH per month and he has some serious HVAC hogs.

[Scottmichaelj]

Here is a perfect example of what I consumed for the month of December 2015. I want you to take a hard look at the monthly total of 410. 172 KWH.

 

That's a month in the arctic cold . . .

 

Next is June 2015 do you see the monthly energy consumption its 297.022 KWH. You indicate you consume 100 KWH per day, not per month but per day!

 

My dear friend Barry G uses 100 KWH per month and he has some serious HVAC hogs.

This is why its imperative for me to get metering the circuits for accurate data. Remember this all goes back to me wanting to figure out the generator size. I also understand loud and clear your point of needs vs wants. Point made. I wont be putting my Jacuzzi Spa bathtub on it and I guess not play my online video games when there is a blackout!

[Teken]

This is why its imperative for me to get metering the circuits for accurate data. Remember this all goes back to me wanting to figure out the generator size. I also understand loud and clear your point of needs vs wants. Point made. I wont be putting my Jacuzzi Spa bathtub on it and I guess not play my online video games when there is a blackout!

 

Well played, well played . . . LOL

 

Enough of the monitoring aspect than lets move on to the generator for a few moments shall we. Some key things you need to take into consideration and it was good you already looked into minimum install clearance. Next is confirming with at least three reputable installers about the NG gas line and if it is large enough for what ever unit is in place.

 

Keeping in mind if you have a Gas HWT, Stove, Dryer . . .

 

You better get ready to bend over for new piping from the gas meter depending upon pipe length. Next don't take what I said about a air cooled vs liquid cooled the wrong way. Its easy for some Internet guy to spew off *Go buy this because* all of these units work just fine assuming all essentials and expectations are in place.

 

I however always look at anything I do with a long term use and horizon. If it costs me more up front I will endeavor to save up and do it right the first time.

 

I have spent the first 15 years of my life putzing along and doing it wrong so I know!

 

Ha . . .

 

It goes with out saying ideally you could purchase and install the largest unit that would offer an entire home to be operated. But as noted are you ready to see the gas bill when it comes in when all you did was sit in the Jacuzzi? I know you're just kidding and we both know you have way too much common sense to do something like that even if you could.

 

I simply call it out because I've seen lots of folks squander away good technology and have no freaking clue why its there. Once you know your real time loads with the energy monitor it will give you lots of insight about the correct sizing and what items need to be load shedded or simply not connected.

[larryllix]

Geeezzzz. a hundred dollar visit, from almost any electrician with a brain, could find 100kWh per day for you by spinning a bottle and looking where it points to.

 

Of course Teken's case  is extreme and can't have heat producing appliances 'cause they would melt his snow house!

But, good on you man. That is many people's dream. I get excited when I get down to 10 kWh per day, but in the summer I produce another 10 kWh back into the grid so my net is about 0. That brings my bill under the $100 mark.

[Teken]

Geeezzzz. a hundred dollar visit, from almost any electrician with a brain, could find 100kWh per day for you by spinning a bottle and looking where it points to.

 

Of course Teken's case  is extreme and can't have heat producing appliances 'cause they would melt his snow house!

 

But, good on you man. That is many people's dream. I get excited when I get down to 10 kWh per day, but in the summer I produce another 10 kWh back into the grid so my net is about 0. That brings my bill under the $100 mark.

 

 

LMAO, I have no words . . .

[Scottmichaelj]

Well played, well played . . . LOL

 

Enough of the monitoring aspect than lets move on to the generator for a few moments shall we. Some key things you need to take into consideration and it was good you already looked into minimum install clearance. Next is confirming with at least three reputable installers about the NG gas line and if it is large enough for what ever unit is in place.

 

Keeping in mind if you have a Gas HWT, Stove, Dryer . . .

 

You better get ready to bend over for new piping from the gas meter depending upon pipe length. Next don't take what I said about a air cooled vs liquid cooled the wrong way. Its easy for some Internet guy to spew off *Go buy this because* all of these units work just fine assuming all essentials and expectations are in place.

 

I however always look at anything I do with a long term use and horizon. If it costs me more up front I will endeavor to save up and do it right the first time.

 

I have spent the first 15 years of my life putzing along and doing it wrong so I know!

 

Ha . . .

 

It goes with out saying ideally you could purchase and install the largest unit that would offer an entire home to be operated. But as noted are you ready to see the gas bill when it comes in when all you did was sit in the Jacuzzi? I know you're just kidding and we both know you have way too much common sense to do something like that even if you could.

 

I simply call it out because I've seen lots of folks squander away good technology and have no freaking clue why its there. Once you know your real time loads with the energy monitor it will give you lots of insight about the correct sizing and what items need to be load shedded or simply not connected.

So even though you keep telling me that "I have more money than brainz" I was due diligent when building my home to make sure the gas line was plumbed and I did a 1" main line. My gas BTUs needs are crazy high too . I have two 100G 88k BTU water tanks, a 6 burner 18K, BBQ etc. So my gas meter is already upgraded as well. All the electrical and gas lines are in, pad was poured and all I needed to do was get the generator, ATS and hook it up. So thats where I am at. I was going to do the liquid cooled but since my property lines and setbacks are tight like I said may not be an option and have to downsize. Hence back to metering and finding the pigs and my actual NEEDS. So not everyone with money doesnt have brainz.

 

PS I dont have money either hahah

[Teken]

So even though you keep telling me that "I have more money than brainz" I was due diligent when building my home to make sure the gas line was plumbed and I did a 1" main line. My gas BTUs needs are crazy high too . I have two 100G 88k BTU water tanks, a 6 burner 18K, BBQ etc. So my gas meter is already upgraded as well. All the electrical and gas lines are in, pad was poured and all I needed to do was get the generator, ATS and hook it up. So thats where I am at. I was going to do the liquid cooled but since my property lines and setbacks are tight like I said may not be an option and have to downsize. Hence back to metering and finding the pigs and my actual NEEDS. So not everyone with money doesnt have brainz.

 

PS I dont have money either hahah

 

I think once you get this new shiny toy you might have to sit down with the wife / GF and let her down easy. 

 

Honey no more 24 HR fooze ball . . . That Teken guy on the Internets says your Jacuzzi time is limited to once per month. He says to also let you freeze because he thinks we use too much electricity!

 

Damn him . . . 

 

[Scottmichaelj]

I think once you get this new shiny toy you might have to sit down with the wife / GF and let her down easy.

Yeah...how would that go over in the Teken household?

[Teken]

Yeah...how would that go over in the Teken household?

 

Duck and hide?!?

 

Ha . . .

[Scottmichaelj]

So for fun I raised my split system cooling from 65F to 70F for my server room. By moving it up 5F my runtime went from 15.88 hours a day on Jan 1st to .98 as of yday. Thats huge. The downside is my hard drives creeped up on avg from 39C to about 44C. I need to see if they are ok to operate in this range longterm and make sure they dont get warmer.

 

I also plan on calling Daikin tomorrow to see if my split system can run in any modes to grab the cool air from outside. Im afraid I cant but its a thought. If not maybe I can find a exhaust fan with open/close shutter, reversible directions and with a filter so I can move the hot air into the garage in the summer and pull cool air from the garage in the winter. This would help with the runtimes as well.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Now to find out how much energy this thing is using and what Im really saving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mwester]

Huddadudda - here in the midwest we call the device you need a "window".

[larryllix]

So for fun I raised my split system cooling from 65F to 70F for my server room. By moving it up 5F my runtime went from 15.88 hours a day on Jan 1st to .98 as of yday. Thats huge. The downside is my hard drives creeped up on avg from 39C to about 44C. I need to see if they are ok to operate in this range longterm and make sure they dont get warmer.

 

I also plan on calling Daikin tomorrow to see if my split system can run in any modes to grab the cool air from outside. Im afraid I cant but its a thought. If not maybe I can find a exhaust fan with open/close shutter, reversible directions and with a filter so I can move the hot air into the garage in the summer and pull cool air from the garage in the winter. This would help with the runtimes as well.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Now to find out how much energy this thing is using and what Im really saving.

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647266.697026.jpg

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647275.545413.jpg

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647286.103561.jpg

You need to get a swimming pool and heat pump the heat into the pool for all year 'round swimming and a cheaper A/C bill.

[larryllix]

So for fun I raised my split system cooling from 65F to 70F for my server room. By moving it up 5F my runtime went from 15.88 hours a day on Jan 1st to .98 as of yday. Thats huge. The downside is my hard drives creeped up on avg from 39C to about 44C. I need to see if they are ok to operate in this range longterm and make sure they dont get warmer.

 

I also plan on calling Daikin tomorrow to see if my split system can run in any modes to grab the cool air from outside. Im afraid I cant but its a thought. If not maybe I can find a exhaust fan with open/close shutter, reversible directions and with a filter so I can move the hot air into the garage in the summer and pull cool air from the garage in the winter. This would help with the runtimes as well.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Now to find out how much energy this thing is using and what Im really saving.

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647266.697026.jpg

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647275.545413.jpg

 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1452647286.103561.jpg

Am I reading these charts right?

 

When the outside temperature goes up in the middle of the day the A/C runs less but the inside temperature drops?

Is there outside air being used when it outside is under a setpoint?

[Scottmichaelj]

Am I reading these charts right?

 

When the outside temperature goes up in the middle of the day the A/C runs less but the inside temperature drops?

Is there outside air being used when it outside is under a setpoint?

Yes but remember this is a server room. The server runs all backups offsite at midnight, this creates a higher load on the server, more load on the drives, in turn creating excess heat. The room is insulated so I guess its safe to say just disregard the outside temps as that really shouldnt be a huge factor.

[Teken]

You're going to find that once any & all energy conservation techniques have been exhausted. You will simply need to generate your own via solar voltaic power generation.

 

At one point I had something really stupid in the order of 4500 watts running 24.7.365. This was for a massive 12 blade server, 8 full time APC Symmetra UPS, and security elements in the home.

 

It simply wasn't possible to reduce my energy consumption with out down sizing and also powering these devices via off grid solar. Even after all of these additional costs have been taken into account its ultimately a life style that dictate the final outcome.

 

I've come down from 1200 KWH per month to a more reasonable - depending upon season 290 - 400 KWH. My ultimate goal is to be below NET Zero once my third phase of solar generation is up and running.

 

Then the POCO will be paying me, instead of me paying them!

 

Ha . . . 

[Scottmichaelj]

You're going to find that once any & all energy conservation techniques have been exhausted. You will simply need to generate your own via solar voltaic power generation.

 

At one point I had something really stupid in the order of 4500 watts running 24.7.365. This was for a massive 12 blade server, 8 full time APC Symmetra UPS, and security elements in the home.

 

It simply wasn't possible to reduce my energy consumption with out down sizing and also powering these devices via off grid solar. Even after all of these additional costs have been taken into account its ultimately a life style that dictate the final outcome.

 

I've come down from 1200 KWH per month to a more reasonable - depending upon season 290 - 400 KWH. My ultimate goal is to be below NET Zero once my third phase of solar generation is up and running.

 

Then the POCO will be paying me, instead of me paying them!

 

Ha . . .

Too many grey days in Seattle for solar. No its doesnt rain that much here, but we have a lot of cloudy days.

[Teken]

Too many grey days in Seattle for solar. No its doesnt rain that much here, but we have a lot of cloudy days.

 

Well, let me put it to you this way . . . If people in the UK can use solar you can install solar in Seattle. If people in China use solar who in many parts of the country have months of almost pitch black skies due to unregulated emissions.

 

You can do solar . . .

 

Even if its not solar you could also consider wind . . .