Scottmichaelj Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 Well, let me put it to you this way . . . If people in the UK can use solar you can install solar in Seattle. If people in China use solar who in many parts of the country have months of almost pitch black skies due to unregulated emissions. You can do solar . . . Even if its not solar you could also consider wind . . . Based on my location neither is an option. More importantly even spending $350 for what I use if I installed solar the ROI wouldnt make financial sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 You live in a HOA right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 You live in a HOA right? Yes surrounded by tall pine trees The sun arch is just too short for solar and wind doesnt make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Without government incentives these forms of alternative energy, using batteries, will never break even. PV without storage would be quite possible to make net gains. Most people argue but if they even consider the ROI lost at 5% they can't break even. Now some things have changed as my last PV panels cost about $1 per watt. That is changing rapidly as the incentives stopped and the four manufacturers all went bankrupt. My first 1600 watts of PV cost me about $9/Watt. I can't get $0.50 for them anymore so they became East-West awnings to square off my curve. Ask me about Wind Power here. I still haven't found the third blade in my neighbourhood. The hole in my roof is fixed though and the divets in the lawn have since grown over again. ...but then we get 110km wind gusts here several times per year. My PV panels are under about 12" of snow right now and I am using grid to keep my batteries alive. I feel sorry for the guy at the corner with his 600KW of PV under snow until April. ROFLMAO. Lives in BC and can't understand why they don't produce Nov-April. Had to replace every inverter so far. Some profit on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Sadly, I understand our brothers across the 49th parallel are going to lose out on the federal 30% solar discount this year, no? I would give a left nut to have had this sort of opportunity given to me! Perhaps the next bleeding heart liberals or conservatives will table such an incentive since it looks like Justin is so pro green! I doubt it because he will be too stoned with his friends to even consider such a thing. Ha . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Sadly, I understand our brothers across the 49th parallel are going to lose out on the federal 30% solar discount this year, no? I would give a left nut to have had this sort of opportunity given to me! Perhaps the next bleeding heart liberals or conservatives will table such an incentive since it looks like Justin is so pro green! I doubt it because he will be too stoned with his friends to even consider such a thing. Ha . . . I would have to ask Maggie. She and Mic Jaggar are running the country. I never got any incentives. I took one for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 When I lived in CA the electric company had a tier system. Anything over 1000 or so kwh a month went into the next tier and so on. I spent around $40k for a 30kwh per day system which worked wonderfully. I had full sun with a long arch, its CA remember! Ha. I did produce the max and it was glorious. Then I moved, so I lost my ROI but I went from $1000k a month bill in the summer to sub $100 with the solar for a while so all was not lost. Without getting too personal, my move made financial sense so while I lost money on that side I gained on this side. Things happen and you have to be able to roll with the changes presented. For me it was all good changes so I don't regret anything and would do it again in a heartbeat. That being said the electrical rate here in the PNW is substantially cheaper. $350 per month is a bargain with no tiers and no way a financial hardship for me. However I don't want to be wasteful either and want do my part to help conserve if it makes sense. Funny enough nat gas in CA is much cheaper and now here almost twice as expensive. I thought I was so smart putting in a gas dryer but come to find out electric would have been cheaper. Oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 When I lived in CA the electric company had a tier system. Anything over 1000 or so kwh a month went into the next tier and so on. I spent around $40k for a 30kwh per day system which worked wonderfully. I had full sun with a long arch, its CA remember! Ha. I did produce the max and it was glorious. Then I moved, so I lost my ROI but I went from $1000k a month bill in the summer to sub $100 with the solar for a while so all was not lost. Without getting too personal, my move made financial sense so while I lost money on that side I gained on this side. Things happen and you have to be able to roll with the changes presented. For me it was all good changes so I don't regret anything and would do it again in a heartbeat. That being said the electrical rate here in the PNW is substantially cheaper. $350 per month is a bargain with no tiers and no way a financial hardship for me. However I don't want to be wasteful either and want do my part to help conserve if it makes sense. Funny enough nat gas in CA is much cheaper and now here almost twice as expensive. I thought I was so smart putting in a gas dryer but come to find out electric would have been cheaper. Oops! How much more is NG than electricity where you live this does play into ROI and sizing of the generator etc. I think anyone would love to get the biggest system they could afford. But sometimes limiting the amount of circuits that will be powered helps off set the generator costs. I know when a system my friend and I helped install he could have easily installed the largest 21 KWH unit from any name brand. But like you after considering how stable the power is in his neck of the woods along with the NG costs. It simply made more sense to install a smaller 10-15 KWH unit knowing it ran more efficient and also costs less up front. Since install as you would guess its running almost four years now. The poor [censored] hasn't once seen a outage at all which really placed him in the dog house for awhile. I look at it as insurance because once you need it you're sure happy you invested in it. Better to have and not need . . . Then to need and not have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 How much more is NG than electricity where you live this does play into ROI and sizing of the generator etc. I think anyone would love to get the biggest system they could afford. But sometimes limiting the amount of circuits that will be powered helps off set the generator costs. I know when a system my friend and I helped install he could have easily installed the largest 21 KWH unit from any name brand. But like you after considering how stable the power is in his neck of the woods along with the NG costs. It simply made more sense to install a smaller 10-15 KWH unit knowing it ran more efficient and also costs less up front. Since install as you would guess its running almost four years now. The poor [censored] hasn't once seen a outage at all which really placed him in the dog house for awhile. I look at it as insurance because once you need it you're sure happy you invested in it. And we circle back to thats why I need to figure out what I need from Brultech to meter my energy usage. ROI and generator cost is not a real factor in this decision. I just need to get something that will work for my needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 I just got my power bill for last month, the meter read date was 1/11-2/10 and its only, wait for it...a whopping $21.92 cheaper and I still used 1922kwh! The last meter read was 12/10-1/11 and I used 1784kwh and was gone for two weeks on vacation with the HVAC split system on. I did find info that my split system uses 1420w at max cooling but its variable speed. Going to have to run calcs based on my max watts per hour to kwh. I turned it completely off from 11/14 to today, but I am going to go back to using the split system with the fan setting. Plus there was more dust than usual with it off which is not good for my computers and AV equipment. I think at this point its best to just get a Brutech energy meter to accurately measure the kwh used per circuit. I still haven't purchased one, but it looks like the best choice for me and thanks to other members sharing their setups. To truly know my consumption the Brutech will be the only way. My avg daily usage seems to be 60kwh over the past three months regardless with no big spikes up or down so turning off the HVAC split system made no real difference for me. At the end of the day I ended up with a 22kwh Generac Guardian Whole Home Generator. Install date is March 2nd so a couple more weeks. While the electricians are doing the install I am going to have them put the Brutech donuts on for me. http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-6551-whole-house-switch?lang=en-US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Wait until you elecrical energy suplier figures out you shoul be on a commercial billing structure. You energy bill may go down a bit while your demand charge will be ten times that. Then you will want your load levelled out too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottmichaelj Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 Had some spare time to work on installing my new Brultech GEM and Dashbox today. Man what a PITA the documentation is horrible with it. It took me forever to figure out (and still not certain how I did) get the GEM to report back to the Dashbox. I have both GEMS on WiFi and then the Dashbox directly connected to the router/switch. I still cant get the second GEM online. This week the generator is finally going to be installed and the electrician is going to put all the donuts on each circuit while he is here. I will post back my results. If anyone has any ideas how to get the second GEM working over WiFi I would love to know. I can connect to it all just fine and I see the data, its just not getting to the Dashbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 Had some spare time to work on installing my new Brultech GEM and Dashbox today. Man what a PITA the documentation is horrible with it. It took me forever to figure out (and still not certain how I did) get the GEM to report back to the Dashbox. I have both GEMS on WiFi and then the Dashbox directly connected to the router/switch. I still cant get the second GEM online. This week the generator is finally going to be installed and the electrician is going to put all the donuts on each circuit while he is here. I will post back my results. If anyone has any ideas how to get the second GEM working over WiFi I would love to know. I can connect to it all just fine and I see the data, its just not getting to the Dashbox. I hope those donoughts have shorting provisions on them. CT's with open circuits are voltage step-up transformers and can produce very high voltages causing insulation breakdown voltages in windings. With tiny units the chances are low due to core saturation. Best to not put current through them until they are shorted or connected to load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafarataneneces Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Most into this use a Brultech GEM (up to 32 channels monitored) and a Brultech Dashbox (connects to up to 2 GEMs serial ports, logs, trends and graphs power data and optionally provides current channel utilization to ISY variables via the REST API). I then have ISY programs trigger the state variables updated by the Dashbox (things like notify me when the fridge door is left open, washing machine is finished etc...). I will caution, its not cheap either. Well worth it though. For one at a time circuit monitoring, Aeotec make a zwave power meter that clamps around a cable, and provide data to ISY. You'll need some way to log values though (perhaps use a notification to write a csv file on ISYs user web space). However, because it doesn't measure voltage it only approximates power usage based on the 'normal' 120vac. Devices like the Brultech measure the voltage to provide a true power reading. So with Brultech GEM I can monitor how much energy my AC is using? Where would I connect it though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 So with Brultech GEM I can monitor how much energy my AC is using? Where would I connect it though? The Brultech GEM (Green Eye Monitor) has 32 channels to attach (32) CT's to the individual circuit breakers in the service panel. You still need a front end to track, view, and recall historic data which can range from using freeware on a RPi / PC. If you're looking for a plug & play option you can purchase the Brultech Dash Box (DB). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafarataneneces Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 The Brultech GEM (Green Eye Monitor) has 32 channels to attach (32) CT's to the individual circuit breakers in the service panel. You still need a front end to track, view, and recall historic data which can range from using freeware on a RPi / PC. If you're looking for a plug & play option you can purchase the Brultech Dash Box (DB). I'm okay hiring an electrician or doing it myself. If I installed 44 Insteon devices in my house (including wiring electric cables so all roofs have electricity so I can connect the ceiling fans) is that enough experience to install Brultech GEM? My main concern is how much energy the AC is using. I don't care too much about the other electronic devices, maybe it would be nice to know how much the fridge uses, how much the computer uses, how much all my living room uses (all my AV equipment is there) I don't want a devices that is not precise though, if I can install something myself so it remains part of the house, then that would be the preferred choice. Which one do you have? How was the installation? Do you know how much $$$ your electric bill will be even before the company sends the bill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 I'm okay hiring an electrician or doing it myself. If I installed 44 Insteon devices in my house (including wiring electric cables so all roofs have electricity so I can connect the ceiling fans) is that enough experience to install Brultech GEM? <-- Yes, that is plenty of experience to install the GEM into the service panel. My main concern is how much energy the AC is using. I don't care too much about the other electronic devices, maybe it would be nice to know how much the fridge uses, how much the computer uses, how much all my living room uses (all my AV equipment is there) I don't want a devices that is not precise though, if I can install something myself so it remains part of the house, then that would be the preferred choice. Which one do you have? <- I own various energy and voltage monitors in my home. My primary energy monitor is the Brultech GEM which is attached to the Dash Box and ISY Series Controller. How was the installation? <- The physical installation is straight forward and takes what it takes in terms of time. Programming and setup is also straight forward and depends upon which front end you decide to go with along with technical skill set. Do you know how much $$$ your electric bill will be even before the company sends the bill? <- Yes, I know what I consumed and what loads contributed to that cost and can see it down to the branch circuit / load. Answers in line . . . NOTE: The Brultech GEM / DB is not a toy - It is a highly accurate, reliable, and multi point connected energy monitor which supports many 3rd party software platforms. The GEM specifically provides 32 energy channels, 8 1 wire temperature sensors, 4 pulse outputs to measure gas, water, dry contact open / closure. The system is fully capable of NET metering for solar, wind, micro hydro generation. The GEM and DB is local hardware solution and does not rely on the cloud to operate or any kind of retarded make belief desegregation guessing as to what loads are on and what they consume. The GEM has, is, and does measure single and 3 phase along with 50 / 60 Hz. The GEM is a Enterprise, Industrial, and Consumer class energy monitoring device which is actually used in commercial spaces. Meaning the hardware is designed, built, and capable of long term operations and reliability. Brultech has been making energy monitors for more than 20 years and that is the only thing they do. They do not make toasters, sleds, or BBQ's . . . They are the leading vendor in integrating with many 3rd party software, cloud, and M2M devices. If you'e serious about monitoring, tracking, and recalling historic data the Brultech company is the only solution that offers the most value and the lowest cost per CT. It doesn't matter what brand you name from Eaton, Schneider, HOBO, to the many toy like devices such as Sense, Smappy, Nurio, TED, HEM, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafarataneneces Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Answers in line . . . NOTE: The Brultech GEM / DB is not a toy - It is a highly accurate, reliable, and multi point connected energy monitor which supports many 3rd party software platforms. The GEM specifically provides 32 energy channels, 8 1 wire temperature sensors, 4 pulse outputs to measure gas, water, dry contact open / closure. The system is fully capable of NET metering for solar, wind, micro hydro generation. The GEM and DB is local hardware solution and does not rely on the cloud to operate or any kind of retarded make belief desegregation guessing as to what loads are on and what they consume. The GEM has, is, and does measure single and 3 phase along with 50 / 60 Hz. The GEM is a Enterprise, Industrial, and Consumer class energy monitoring device which is actually used in commercial spaces. Meaning the hardware is designed, built, and capable of long term operations and reliability. Brultech has been making energy monitors for more than 20 years and that is the only thing they do. They do not make toasters, sleds, or BBQ's . . . They are the leading vendor in integrating with many 3rd party software, cloud, and M2M devices. If you'e serious about monitoring, tracking, and recalling historic data the Brultech company is the only solution that offers the most value and the lowest cost per CT. It doesn't matter what brand you name from Eaton, Schneider, HOBO, to the many toy like devices such as Sense, Smappy, Nurio, TED, HEM, etc. Well just one last question If I have a 100 amp breaker but in the future I want to have a 200 amp breaker (because of solar panel installation), will this device also work once I upgrade my main electrical box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Well just one last question If I have a 100 amp breaker but in the future I want to have a 200 amp breaker (because of solar panel installation), will this device also work once I upgrade my main electrical box? All you need to do is purchase the appropriate CT to measure the amperage required. Brultech CT's come in a range of Micro 40, 50, 80, 100. Split CT's come in 60, 100, 170, and 200 amps. More sales and technical data can be found here: http://www.brultech.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Answers in line . . . NOTE: The Brultech GEM / DB is not a toy - It is a highly accurate, reliable, and multi point connected energy monitor which supports many 3rd party software platforms. They do not make toasters, sleds, or BBQ's . . . Well crap. I want the matching toaster. Best regards, Gary Funk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccclapp Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 If you are interested in monitoring both circuits (eg via GEM) AND plugs, (eg zwave smart plugs), this thread may be useful... http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/12682-energy-monitoring-circuits-plugs-interface/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Well just one last question If I have a 100 amp breaker but in the future I want to have a 200 amp breaker (because of solar panel installation), will this device also work once I upgrade my main electrical box? Interesting. I worked in the electrical utility metering business for several decades. How would PV panels affect your switch capacity requirements? Usually PV will lessen your load requirements from the grid, depending how it is connected, Net Metering or separate Fit metering. With Net metering your load requirements are usually less. With Fit metering a separate meter usually handles the PV energy and your customer service load requirements are unaffected. Are you planning to backfeed the grid with that much power, like over 25kW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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