ALL ON / ALL OFF Incidents

[justin.cool]

CGD,  

 

Thank you for the note.  I agree, I am very happy with the ISY-994, and the support I have gotten.  

 

We are putting our house on the market in the next few weeks and I have begun researching what Home Automation products to use in the next house.  It could very well turn out that the ISY plays a key role in it given the compatibility with so many other devices and manufacturers ....but I have just begun this journey.  

 

I will keep you posted.  Likewise, if anyone on this forum has articles and/or products / systems they would like to recommend or have experience with, then please by all means throw them out there.

 

Justin in Dallas

[Frank_YYZ]

This thread has been dead for over a year now, but there have been some new developments so I thought I'd mention them for any users out there who were following this thread or have experienced ALL ON / ALL OFF problems.

 

 

I will summarize the things that are in the thread so you don't have to piece it together from several pages of postings.

 

Some versions of the Insteon 2413S PLM used with the isy have known firmware issues that result in the occasional ALL OFF or ALL ON event.  These don't happen to everyone but seem more likely if you have one or more of the following:

 

- a lot of Insteon devices in your network

- communications issues.

- multiple panels in your house.  (May be the main cause of the communications issues.)

 

Summary of historical events

Years ago (June 2013), I replaced an existing PLM with a new PLM that had a F/W rev V9B.  I started getting random All on / off events.

After several months of suffering these events and not being able to find the cause, I replaced this V9B unit with an older one I had in stock. (V92).  This was Oct. 2013.  I have had NO all ON/OFF events since.

 

It turns out V9B had a known issue and Smarthome would replace this PLM.  I eventually talked Smarthome into giving me a replacement for the useless V9B unit.  This new unit was Rev V9E.  I kept this one as a spare since everyone knows that PLMs will die after a few years.

 

New Events

Fast forward a year and, true to form, my V92 PLM died.  (It lasted 3 1/2 years.  Better than most from what I hear.)  I thought that I'd put in the new V9E unit to verify that it worked.  This would also give me some time to replace the capacitors in my V92 PLM so I would always have a spare.   The Restore PLM operation took a few hours, but everything went OK.

 

A few days later, I had an ALL ON event.  So I repaired my old unit and spent many unpleasant hours doing another Restore PLM back to my older V92 unit.  

 

So, it could have been just a coincidence that I got my first ALL ON event in almost four years within days of installing the new V9E PLM.    But, I noticed a user, MarkJames was also having ALL ON events using a PLM with F/W Rev V9E.  It's in an unrelated thread talking about programming remotes.  See link below.

 

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/17197-cant-get-a-successful-write-to-a-remotelinc/?hl=2440&do=findComment&comment=178614

 

 

I'm starting to wonder if Smarthome has totally solved their issue with spurious ALL ON/OFF commands being generated by their PLMs.  From what I've seen, they've taken a sort of half-a**ed approach to solving the problem.  Newer modules don't seem to respond to the Insteon ALL ON or ALL OFF commands anymore.   

 

Has anyone else experienced ALL ON/OFF events using newer PLM's (eg V9E or newer?)

 

Frank

[Techman]

Hi Frank,

 

What is the hardware version and date code of the v9E PLM?

 

The PLM problem seems to be more hardware rather than firmware related. The current PLM hardware version is 2.3 which has an updated RS232 daughter board and updated capacitors in its power supply.

 

Not sure exactly what was causing the all on issue,  but one possibility is data collision within the PLM. The previous PLMs also had capacitors that failed causing the PLM to basically shut down.  Smarthome hopes that the current version has addressed all the issues.

 

The newer Insteon devices have the all on/off feature removed.

[Frank_YYZ]

The H/W rev and date code for my V9E PLM are: 

V2.2 1617

 

I've repaired lots of my devices (Access Points and PLMs) by replacing the five electrolytic capacitors that seem to die after 2-3 years.  

 

The PLM has been a bit of a flaky foundation on which to build both the Insteon and the isy empires!  

[Techman]

The H/W rev and date code for my V9E PLM are: 

V2.2 1617

 

I've repaired lots of my devices (Access Points and PLMs) by replacing the five electrolytic capacitors that seem to die after 2-3 years.  

 

The PLM has been a bit of a flaky foundation on which to build both the Insteon and the isy empires!  

 

Give Smarthome customer service, not their tech support, a call. They'll be able to tell you if the 2.3 version has the all on fix.

[Frank_YYZ]

Interesting .. customer service may actually know more about a technical issue than tech support?  Doesn't surprise me.  

 

But last time I contacted Smarthome, they gave me a lot of grief about sending me an updated PLM.  (It's true that mine was well out of warranty. But it had been in service only a few months and had never worked properly.  By the time I was certain that my older PLM had cured the ALL ON/OFF issue, another year had elapsed and I never bothered to call them.  It was only when I found this thread that I got miffed enough to bug them.)  When they grudgingly gave me a replacement, they made it clear that this unit had no warranty.

 

I will hold off on calling them until I see whether my repaired, older PLM brings things back to normal.  By the time I actually need it, they might have a newer version.  I already have four PLMs lying around.  Not that I can use any of my spares!

[Brian H]

I believe firmware 9E has been in a few hardware revisions. Including my V2.3.

[blaine]

As another point of reference, I client of mine just had an ALL ON event that opened both his front gate and his garage door while he was not home. All hardware and firmware is the latest as of a couple months ago. There are no motion sensors (or anything battery powered) in the install; the overall hardware environment is the ISY-944i, PLM, two I/O Lincs, one 6-Button KPL, two dimmers, two OutdoorLincs and one range extender. I still need to comb through the event log to see what I can find.

 

My client is now understandably totally freaked out that his property is not secure and I currently have no response for him. I am not going to install any gate and/or garage door controls going forward until this issue is rooted out. Given that nothing concrete has come up in several years now, I'm not holding my breath.

 

As a side note, I too had an ALL ON event occur when I was recently out of town... it opened my gate and garage door and lit up my garage to allow anyone to get a great look at the valuable contents inside. Fortunately my wife was home, but it happened in the early morning hours (at sunrise to be precise) and went unnoticed for a couple of hours. NOT happy and will be looking into another solution that is not Insteon. As much as I love the value and possibilities of Insteon, between the PLM and KPL longevity and the possibility of an ALL ON event occurring, Lutron (at triple the price) is starting to look attractive... and this is coming from a long time user and advocate of Insteon since the early days. I have nothing against the ISY... it's handled everything I've attempted, but its reputation is built on Insteon and Insteon ain't cuttin' it.

 

--Blaine

[larryllix]

Most doubt the PLM is the villian with the so-called ALL ON mystery. The PLM was manufactured with some cheap components, no doubt.

 

There has been discussions how to detect the results of an ALL-ON event. I am not sure they can detect an ALL-Off event though, or a random trigger of a scene, as I believe they all are. They don't send status updates making them hard to detect.

 

Security intent people do not use Insteon as it is easily hackable, although I have never heard of it demonstrated, yet.

 

With the gate AND the garage wide open, passerbies may just think you are coming home with some geofence nonsense and it triggered early.

[stusviews]

Having had ALL ON events that opened our gate and garage doors, I, too, am concerned about using Insteon. But only for those particular tasks. Insteon, combined with the ISY is too versatile to give up for a less adequate, although more secure system.

 

I've already changed the garage doors to Z-wave control. The driveway gate is next. But Insteon still rules here where HA is concerned

[MWareman]

Security intent people do not use Insteon as it is easily hackable, although I have never heard of it demonstrated, yet.

I've seen it demonstrated with a SDR and a small amount of code (though I do not have a copy of it, nor do I have a SDR that will work at the required frequencies).

 

You could sniff all addresses within range, easily determine the PLM address and then form and send commands to any device chosen by the attacker.

 

My advice.... NEVER connect Insteon to a lock, garage door, gate or anything where security is required.

[Frank_YYZ]

It makes me feel a bit better that I'm not the only one on the planet getting unexplained ALL ON/OFF events.  Misery loves company.  But, this issue has been floating about for years.  This is NOT simply a case of the occasional message getting garbled and being interpreted as an ALL-ON or ALL OFF.  (By 150 modules in my case?)  The PLM is occasionally issuing ALL ON and ALL OFF commands and the isy doesn't know anything about it when it happens.  This is about the worst and most dangerous failure mode imaginable for a home automation system.

 

The PLM is a really flaky foundation on which Smarthome and isy have based their entire HA business.  If you ignore the goofy little controllers that Smarthome makes, every single serious HA installation relies on a working PLM.  It seems to me, that if they took their business seriously, they would be all over this issue and try to get to the bottom of it.  Or just design and build a decent PLM from scratch.  (There were rumors a few years ago that Universal Devices was thinking about this.  Wish they had done it.)  Maybe it's no great surprise that both companies are actively selling/supporting Z-wave these days.  With every failure of this type, Insteon will lose not only a customer, but probably an installer as well.  (See previous messages in this thread.)

 

I disconnected my garage doors from Insteon years ago and wouldn't dream of putting anything security related on it.  But I have about 8 KW of deicing cables that I control with Insteon.  (I only need them for a few hours per year and the switches are in really diverse and hard to reach places.)  In the winter, it just costs a lot of money if they are turned on.  In the summer, these events can fry the cables and be a potential fire hazard.  It turns out that the last ALL ON event I had damaged two of my cables.  (The GFI's now trip whenever I try to power them up.)   Guess I will either have to disconnect them entirely except in winter, or switch to another HA system.

[larryllix]

You have a heating system with direct grid connected wiring with no over temperature or other safety limits? Even a $20 baseboard heater and a $10 kettle has an over temperature cutout inside.

 

At least there was GFCIs used to feed them. Even the old X10 modules advised and users against usage for heating devices and other dangerous uses.

 

The random scene on trouble I had, was not related to my PLM. It was coming from a run away plug-in module.

Yeah, the PLMs have been poorly made, but there is no real proof a PLM failure is even related to the problem.

 

The GFCI problem could be eliminated with an isolation transformer and the self-destruct sequence may be eliminated with some safety devices in place.

[NHWA]

For those who noticed that their all ons were related to the garage iolinc, I noticed through my security cameras that the all ons in my case always were in proximity to the garage iolinc sensing opening or closing. I removed the insteon iolinc and replaced it with a zwave garage door sensor. I've been clear for a few months now. It's still too early to be certain but I think the garage iolinc certainly is more prone to setting these off for some reason.

[Frank_YYZ]

The heating tapes are self-limiting so that they draw less power as they heat.  They are approved and rated to be intrinsically safe, as long as you make certain that they don't touch each other.  (Mine don't ever cross themselves or touch each other.)  I also have an isy program that turns off all my tapes a couple of times per day.   Every day.

 

There was a case a few years ago about an owner who bought a house that had a heating cable coiled into a tight coil.  He didn't know about it and didn't know what a particular switch did, so he turned it on and it started a fire on his porch.  Would have been OK except for the cable being coiled up.

 

The issue with the cables is that, if they are energized while baking in the sun, the metal clips that they provide to secure them can deform the outer jacket to the point that it may crack and let in water.  So the tapes don't overheat to ignition temperature, but the crack lets in water when it subsequently rains and so the GFI will pop.  If this happens and I can't fix the crack, I toss the cable.  (Hard to put an isolation transformer on a roof!)  The cables are only rated to last 10 years and I'm up to 8 or so.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but in my case (and the user named Justin.Cool, who stated this thread) it was definite that PLMs were the cause.  One PLM version gave me a couple of ALL ON/OFF events per week.  I put in an older PLM and had no all on/off events for 3 1/2 years.  None.  When the power supply inside that PLM died (as all PLMs supplies do)  I put in a newer one and had an event within a few days.  Nothing else in my system changed.  So I fixed the old one, put it back in and am hoping that my lucky streak continues.   I never claimed that flakey PLMs are the only cause of ALL ON/OFF events.  But, I do claim that the PLM is unreliable and certain versions are a known cause of ALL ON/OFF events.  (Even Smarthome has acknowledged this.)

 

Justin is no longer a member of this forum.  His ALL/ON/OFF problems were fixed by a new PLM.  But he has sold the house that contained his Insteon system and his new house will not have Insteon in it.  Ever.

[blaine]

Having had ALL ON events that opened our gate and garage doors, I, too, am concerned about using Insteon. But only for those particular tasks. Insteon, combined with the ISY is too versatile to give up for a less adequate, although more secure system.

 

I've already changed the garage doors to Z-wave control. The driveway gate is next. But Insteon still rules here where HA is concerned

stusviews... could you enlighten me to the exact Z-wave control device that you used? And I do agree that in most other regards (barring KPL and PLM longevity), Insteon is fantastic.

 

Thanks,

Blaine

 

Edit: Never mind... I found it by searching the forums. MIMOlite. I'm ordering two now for my own home to test and will retrofit my client's install with the same if all goes well.

[stusviews]

Hi Blaine, I'm using a MiMO Wireless Z-Wave Multi-Input/Output Dry Contact Bridge. I tried the Z-WavePlus MiMO2+ Interface Module (two garages), but that shows up as a single relay in ISY v4+. I believe that v5+ recognizes both relays in the MiMO2+.

 

The non-adjustable built in delay didn't work for me, so ended up using a program with a 2 second delay between turning the relay on and off.

If
        Control 'DR / Devices / DR Side Door Light / DR Side Door E Garage Door 1' is switched On
     Or Control 'CR / Devices / CRM-B Driveway Gate / CRM-C Garage1' is switched On
 
Then
        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off
 
Else
        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off

 

I use both Then and Else to allow Open/Close or Off (open)/On (close) to work with an Echo.

[blaine]

Hi Blaine, I'm using a MiMO Wireless Z-Wave Multi-Input/Output Dry Contact Bridge. I tried the Z-WavePlus MiMO2+ Interface Module (two garages), but that shows up as a single relay in ISY v4+. I believe that v5+ recognizes both relays in the MiMO2+.

 

The non-adjustable built in delay didn't work for me, so ended up using a program with a 2 second delay between turning the relay on and off.

If

        Control 'DR / Devices / DR Side Door Light / DR Side Door E Garage Door 1' is switched On

     Or Control 'CR / Devices / CRM-B Driveway Gate / CRM-C Garage1' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off

 

Else

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off

 

I use both Then and Else to allow Open/Close or Off (open)/On (close) to work with an Echo.

Good stuff... thanks Stu!

[apostolakisl]

Does anyone know what happens during an all on event as far as thermostats are concerned?

[stusviews]

I've had a few ALL ON events. The Insteon thermostats were not affected. That's probably because the thermostat does not have a simple On command. On/Off Modules were also not affected for the same reason. The same is true for the SynchroLinc and the I/O Linc sensor, but the I/O Linc relay, which does have an On command did respond.

[blaine]

The non-adjustable built in delay didn't work for me, so ended up using a program with a 2 second delay between turning the relay on and off.

If

        Control 'DR / Devices / DR Side Door Light / DR Side Door E Garage Door 1' is switched On

     Or Control 'CR / Devices / CRM-B Driveway Gate / CRM-C Garage1' is switched On

 

Then

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off

 

Else

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' On

        Wait  2 seconds

        Set 'GG / Garage1 Control / GG1 ZW Binary Switch' Off

 

I use both Then and Else to allow Open/Close or Off (open)/On (close) to work with an Echo.

I just received my MIMOlite. The instructions indicate that the momentary configuration can be set from 100ms to 25.5s, but it would require ISY to support the particular command for altering this (haven't installed yet, so I don't know the answer to this). Will see if the default of 500ms works for me first.

[biffom]

Does anyone know what happens during an all on event as far as thermostats are concerned?

With my all on events. The thermostats are switched off. Every thing else is switched on. Bit of an issue when living in the tropics.

[biffom]

Has anyone come up with a foolproof way of detecting an all on event on the isy? I've not been able to get mine to detect any of devices as being on after an all on event. I've resorted to running a scheduled task that runs an all off task (and then reset thermostats and kick off sundry other programs) every twenty minutes whilst we are away traveling. There has to be a better way to do this until this debacle is sorted.

 

Something like an iolink relay (which seems to respond to an all on event) connected to another device that can detect this and cause an event to fire back on the isy.

 

This would help me with my installation as luckily I don't have garage doors that could inadvertently close.

[paulbates]

Has anyone come up with a foolproof way of detecting an all on event on the isy? I've not been able to get mine to detect any of devices as being on after an all on event. I've resorted to running a scheduled task that runs an all off task (and then reset thermostats and kick off sundry other programs) every twenty minutes whilst we are away traveling. There has to be a better way to do this until this debacle is sorted.

 

Something like an iolink relay (which seems to respond to an all on event) connected to another device that can detect this and cause an event to fire back on the isy.

 

This would help me with my installation as luckily I don't have garage doors that could inadvertently close.

 

The most straightforward way is to plugin and install a device like a lamplinc or appliancelinc to the ISY... that has no functional role . Then write a program to see if it ever goes on... as a "no role" device, it should never go on.

 

The device could be a spare, or in other cases it could be a place where you need a range extender... put a lamplinc for detecting ALL ONs instead.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

ISY does not know when a scene is activated,  or an ALL ON/Off event happens. The devices do not send status changes to ISY.

 

A continuous looping program  with queries would have to be jwritten  with Paul's technique (above).

 

 

Are your themostat devices included in any Insteon scenes?