Insteon 3-Way (2nd switch FOUND)

[KHouse]

Looking to get some help here.

 

I've got a light switch right next to the door that leads from my house into the garage, which operates the garage ceiling lights.  Been here 20 years, and as far as I know this is the only switch that powers the ceiling lights in the garage.

 

However, as I go to replace this switch with an Insteon on/off switch, I find that it's a 3-way setup.  This switch having the constant hot and 2 travelers (all 3 of which are orange colored wires).

 

In any case, what would the proper setup be to connect my Insteon switch.  I do not care if the "other" switch doesn't work any longer, as it is missing...but wanted to be sure I could safely wire this one switch having the 2 traverls and constant hot on this end.

 

Thoughts or help?  Any help is very much appreciated!!

 

*I do not have access to any of the wiring on the other end as I do not know where the other end/switch is.

 

**SECOND SWITCH WAS FOUND, PLEASE READ BELOW**

Edited May 14, 2016 by KHouse

[larryllix]

Looking to get some help here.

 

I've got a light switch right next to the door that leads from my house into the garage, which operates the garage ceiling lights.  Been here 20 years, and as far as I know this is the only switch that powers the ceiling lights in the garage.

 

However, as I go to replace this switch with an Insteon on/off switch, I find that it's a 3-way setup.  This switch having the constant hot and 2 travelers (all 3 of which are orange colored wires).

 

In any case, what would the proper setup be to connect my Insteon switch.  I do not care if the "other" switch doesn't work any longer, as it is missing...but wanted to be sure I could safely wire this one switch having the 2 traverls and constant hot on this end.

 

Thoughts or help?  Any help is very much appreciated!!

 

*I do not have access to any of the wiring on the other end as I do not know where the other end/switch is.

Ouch!

 

In the end you need a permanent hot and neutral on the SwitchLinc. The load wire has to go to the SWL red, grounds attached, and all others have to get capped for safety.

 

Be very careful of this if you don't know where the feed is. Use a voltmeter to test all wires before and after switching the breaker off. Test the voltmeter first to make sure it is working and on the right scales.

 

If no voltmeter is available, make sure the light is on before flipping the breaker and then make sure the light is off under any position. Two lamps for indication reliability is better.

[oberkc]

If you have an unswitched hot and neutral at this location, plus two travelers, it may be possible to identify the traveler that is currently routed to the common\fixture at the unidentified switch location and hook that traveler to the switched output from the new insteon switch.  Still, I am curious about your wiring configuration.  How many cables are there entering the switch box.  How many conductors are in each of those cables?  Is this the only switch in this switch box?  Do you have a voltmeter and know how to use it?  Are you able to identify a neutral (color is not conclusive)?

[KHouse]

Thanks for the info.

 

I've attached another pic, and lettered the wires for reference.

 

I've confirmed the light switch powers the lights on (there's 5 ceiling lights in the garage) when the breaker is ON.  When the breaker is flipped OFF, the switch does not power on the lights.

 

With the breaker OFF, lights ON or OFF, I get 0 readings across all 3.

 

With the breaker ON, lights OFF,  I get 120V at C.  0 readings at A and B.

 

With the breaker ON, lights ON, I get 120V at C and B (which is also the black screw).  I'm also getting 13 or so at A.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mango]

Three reds. Fantastic. Meter time.

[KHouse]

Found the other switch!  We have a side door near the back corner of the garage that has enver been used, and we have paneling for tools screwed in around it.

 

Figured there must be a switch near both doors...but honestly, had no clue that switch was there / couldn't remember that it was there as the panneling had been put up years ago.

 

In any case, took part of it down, and found the switch right were it should have been.

 

So....I guess now the question is:  How do I properly wire this so that this 2nd switch does not work, and the first switch becomes an Insteon Switchlic and operates the garage lights.  After this is all set, I'm going to put the panel back up and this 2nd switch wont be used ever.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

(the switch on the right is the 3-way switch, I have no clue what the switch on the left operates)

Edited May 14, 2016 by KHouse

[KHouse]

If you have an unswitched hot and neutral at this location, plus two travelers, it may be possible to identify the traveler that is currently routed to the common\fixture at the unidentified switch location and hook that traveler to the switched output from the new insteon switch.  Still, I am curious about your wiring configuration.  How many cables are there entering the switch box.  How many conductors are in each of those cables?  Is this the only switch in this switch box?  Do you have a voltmeter and know how to use it?  Are you able to identify a neutral (color is not conclusive)?

 

Forgot to answer...my house has white neutrals capped off in each of the boxes.  I guess I don't know how to conclusively check that these are neutrals, but they are white, they do cap off inside each of the boxes, they are never connected to anything else, and all of my Switchlincs have worked fine for years using these "neutrals".

Edited May 14, 2016 by KHouse

[stusviews]

It is not in compliance with the code to have an electric box that is not accessible, but it is possible to bypass the 2nd switch. BTW, it's really odd that all wires to the switches are the same color. You don't have Romex, wires were pulled through metallic conduit or flex, so multiple colors are easy.

[larryllix]

It is not in compliance with the code to have an electric box that is not accessible, but it is possible to bypass the 2nd switch. BTW, it's really odd that all wires to the switches are the same color. You don't have Romex, wires were pulled through metallic conduit or flex, so multiple colors are easy.

Stu. Is it permitted to tape mark orange conductors white, black and red in the US? In Canada the white tape wouldn't pass for neutral. Must be "marked continuously down the length" or some wording like that.

 

I think I have seen armoured cable with all oranges in it once. HVAC? Can't remember where though.

 

BTW: Look at the wire colours used in the last posted photo. Somebody used control wiring cables to wire a house. I have some but only for solar panel DC  purposes.

Edited May 14, 2016 by larryllix

[stusviews]

Any color wire can be identified as a different purpose using tape or paint. Any color wire can be used without identification for any purpose with the following exceptions: a neutral wire must be identified as such using white or gray and only green (or green with a color stripe) or a bare wire can be a ground wire.

[KHouse]

Most (if not all) of the other switches in my home have multiple colors.  Bunch of different colors used, the whites are always nuetrual though, and this one switch is wired weird in that it has all orange wires.

[KHouse]

Ok, so I'm working with these two switches.  The switch with the all orange is the one I'd like to be a Switchlinc.  The other pictures shows two switches, the right one being the 3-way switch that ties into the Switchlinc.

 

How best/safest to make the 2nd switch inoperable, and make the 1st switch the only one that works (being a Switchlinc).

 

Any correct way to do this?

 

And to be compliant with code I'll cut out a square in the panel where the switches are on the wall.  (It's pegboard with holes in it to add hangers and what not for tools).

Edited May 14, 2016 by KHouse

[paulbates]

Actually no. Insteon does not support a traditional 3 (or more) way set up. You can either get rid of the other switch (remove and cap), or replace it with a switchlnc  and add them to a scene. The  switches will turn each other on and off via the scene. One of the switches will have its load connected to the light. 

 

It sounds like remove and cap is best. It may matter what box the actual load to the light comes to. You may have to experiment to be sure.

 

Paul

Edited May 14, 2016 by paulbates

[larryllix]

Does the defunct switch function with the lights yet as a 3way system?

 

and is the switch beside the defunct one completely defunct already?

 

oh and do you have a voltmeter?

Edited May 14, 2016 by larryllix

[stusviews]

As long as you comply with the code, I'm willing to provide help

 

The black screw on a 3-way switch (so called because it has 3 connections) is either the line or the load. The other two wire are the travelers. If you really don't intend to ever use the second switch, then you can bypass it. Use a blank plate to cover the opening.

 

Make any correction as needed:

 

1. I notice that the box with two switches has a 3-way with two gray wires one of which goes to the switch on the left. Is that the black screw on the 3-way switch that has two gray wires? Also that the switch on the left has only one gray wire attached.

 

2. At the other box with three orange wires, what other wires are in the same opening as the wire connected to the black screw?

 

3. What other wires are in the opening with the other with orange wires?

 

Do you have a voltmeter?

Edited May 14, 2016 by stusviews

[apostolakisl]

It is very doable to not put a switch at your second box and have a single Insteon switch at the primary box. 

 

First, breaker off.

 

The easiest way to tell you how to do it is to unhook all the non-ground and non-neutral wires (leave the grounds spliced together and the white's spliced together . . . but not to each other of course).

 

Test that your whites are actually neutral by ohming between the whites and the grounds.  Should be ~ 0 ohms.

 

Turn the breaker back on.

 

With your volt meter, find the hot by touching each candidate wire with one probe and the bare ground wire with the other probe.  The hot will only be one wire at one of the three locations.

 

breaker off again.

 

If your hot is at the box where you want your switchlinc, you can call that part quits.  If not, you need to find a traveler wire that goes between the hot location and that box.  Splice each non-ground wire one a time to your ground at the switchlinc box, then go to the other two boxes with an ohm meter and cross each candidate wire there with the ground wire in that box.  When you find the wire with ~ 0 ohms of resistance, then you found the two ends of that wire.  Mark it.  Do this until you figure out enough wires to have the following

 

1) Hot at the switchlinc box

2) A wire that can get the load to the light

 

It is quite possible that at least one of these wires will go through the other box to get there.

 

It sounds like you already have neutrals at every box, so that part is easy.

 

Cap off all wires at the unused box and put a blank plate on it.  Maybe use a sharpie and write on the backside of the plate what you did for future owner of house.

[KHouse]

Actually no. Insteon does not support a traditional 3 (or more) way set up. You can either get rid of the other switch (remove and cap), or replace it with a switchlnc  and add them to a scene. The  switches will turn each other on and off via the scene. One of the switches will have its load connected to the light. 

 

It sounds like remove and cap is best. It may matter what box the actual load to the light comes to. You may have to experiment to be sure.

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul.  Yes, I don't actually want a 3-way configuration, so remove and cap is what I'm after.

 

Does the defunct switch function with the lights yet as a 3way system?

 

and is the switch beside the defunct one completely defunct already?

 

oh and do you have a voltmeter?

 

The two switches act as a 3-way, and they both turn the garage lights on/off.  Yes, I have a voltmeter.

 

As long as you comply with the code, I'm willing to provide help

 

The black screw on a 3-way switch (so called because it has 3 connections) is either the line or the load. The other two wire are the travelers. If you really don't intend to ever use the second switch, then you can bypass it. Use a blank plate to cover the opening.

 

Make any correction as needed:

 

1. I notice that the box with two switches has a 3-way with two gray wires one of which goes to the switch on the left. Is that the black screw on the 3-way switch that has two gray wires? Also that the switch on the left has only one gray wire attached.

 

2. At the other box with three orange wires, what other wires are in the same opening as the wire connected to the black screw?

 

3. What other wires are in the opening with the other with orange wires?

 

Do you have a voltmeter?

 

1.  Yes, the black screw is the terminal where the blue wire is attached on the soon to be defunct switch (you called it gray but they're actually blue).  The oranges are at the bottom, one on each side (pic attached).  Just that one blue wire continues on to the miscellaneous switch, which has only that wire connected to it.  Cannot figure out what that switch would operate.  This box has 1 extra wire, which is white, and just taped over...not capped or connected to anything (nice huh?!).

 

2.  Pic attached.  There are whites (capped), blues (capped), reds (capped), and the yellow/black which go to the 2nd switch in the box (right switch).  That switch operates as a 3 way for a light in the house.

 

3.  Just the white, taped over wire.

 

I do have a voltmeter.

 

To clarify a little bit. 

 

Box #1 is the box inside the house.  This has two switches (garage lights - left switch) and (inside foyer light - right switch).  I'd like the left switch (garage lights) to become a Switchlinc, right switch (foyer light) stays as is.

 

Box #2 was the switches behind the pegboard in the garage.  This box has the "other" 3-way switch for the garage lights (right switch), and the single pole left switch with 1 wire connected and who knows what it operates.  Both of these are not necessary switches as we've never used them, they're in the back corner of the garage, and I don't mind capping these completely and not using them at all.

 

 

Thanks everyone for your help!!

 

*No matter how I have the pictures rotated, when I upload them, the forum turns them sideways.  Not sure how to correct that.

Edited May 15, 2016 by KHouse

[KHouse]

It is very doable to not put a switch at your second box and have a single Insteon switch at the primary box. 

 

First, breaker off.

 

The easiest way to tell you how to do it is to unhook all the non-ground and non-neutral wires (leave the grounds spliced together and the white's spliced together . . . but not to each other of course).

 

Test that your whites are actually neutral by ohming between the whites and the grounds.  Should be ~ 0 ohms.

 

Turn the breaker back on.

 

With your volt meter, find the hot by touching each candidate wire with one probe and the bare ground wire with the other probe.  The hot will only be one wire at one of the three locations.

 

breaker off again.

 

If your hot is at the box where you want your switchlinc, you can call that part quits.  If not, you need to find a traveler wire that goes between the hot location and that box.  Splice each non-ground wire one a time to your ground at the switchlinc box, then go to the other two boxes with an ohm meter and cross each candidate wire there with the ground wire in that box.  When you find the wire with ~ 0 ohms of resistance, then you found the two ends of that wire.  Mark it.  Do this until you figure out enough wires to have the following

 

1) Hot at the switchlinc box

2) A wire that can get the load to the light

 

It is quite possible that at least one of these wires will go through the other box to get there.

 

It sounds like you already have neutrals at every box, so that part is easy.

 

Cap off all wires at the unused box and put a blank plate on it.  Maybe use a sharpie and write on the backside of the plate what you did for future owner of house.

 

Neutrals are good.  I have no ground wires in any box (the boxes and conduit do the grounding, no ground wires anywhere).

 

Having trouble finding the hot.

 

Breaker ON, lights OFF.  Box #1 has one wire with voltage (black screw), the two others have no voltage.

 

Box #2 (inside the garage), has voltage going to two wires (the blue wire and one of the orange).

[larryllix]

Note: the box you are working in may contain wiring from another circuit breaker and should not be connected to other than the bare ground conductors. You would be mixing up circuit feeds and could result in problems or dangers later. These wires may still be alive the whole time you have your circuit breaker turned off.

 

In the 'soon to be defunct" switch box...we'll call that the "remote box"

 

At the remote box, there must be a third orange wire coming in and connected to another wire/cable. That will be your lights/load. Keep it connected together.  If this is not so then do not proceed further. More information is required.   At the SWL box, this wire should be connected to the black screw on the switchlinc box end switch. Transfer that wire to the SwitchLinc red wire.

 

In the same cable going to your lights/load (above) there should be another wire (hopefully white) connected to the incoming neutral wire. This needs to have one of the oranges attached to it, marked with white tape at both ends and connected to the SwitchLinc white at its box.

 

The blue wire at the remote box end is your hot wire and needs to be connected to the last orange wire going to the switchlinc and connected to the switchlinc black. This should isolate the old switch.

 

Your remote devices should now be completely free of wires.

 

Pull the gapping tab out on the switchlinc and position the switchlinc so you can poke the ohmmeter into to the cap on the switchlinc white wire to ground on the box. Repeat this with the switchlinc black wire to ground.

 

If you read close to zero ohms on the white and much higher on the black wire all should be good. If they are reversed you need to reverse the two white and black wires to the orange wires. Don't forget to transfer the white tape!

 

Before turning this on Perhaps  Stu could put his two cents worth in here as he is more experienced at this and may be able to see a flaw or a better method. I am concerned the feed has not been disclosed yet (first instruction) and there may be a safer way to reveal the wiring structure.

 

EDIT: Looking at  your pictures again, reading about your voltmeter reading hot at the black screw of the switch, and seeing no other wiring in the remote box...

 

     ....this appears somebody has thrown a three way switching arrangement into the neutral of this lighting circuit.

This is not going to be according safety code from any method I can figure out, as yet.

Edited May 15, 2016 by larryllix

[Algorithm]

Found the other switch!  We have a side door near the back corner of the garage that has enver been used, and we have paneling for tools screwed in around it.

 

Figured there must be a switch near both doors...but honestly, had no clue that switch was there / couldn't remember that it was there as the panneling had been put up years ago.

 

In any case, took part of it down, and found the switch right were it should have been.

 

So....I guess now the question is:  How do I properly wire this so that this 2nd switch does not work, and the first switch becomes an Insteon Switchlic and operates the garage lights.  After this is all set, I'm going to put the panel back up and this 2nd switch wont be used ever.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

(the switch on the right is the 3-way switch, I have no clue what the switch on the left operates)

 

Since the switches are inside the garage at the man-door, the seond switch may have been intended for a light outside that door--do you have a light there?

 

Al

[stusviews]

The orange wires connected to the brass screws on each 3-way switch are travelers. Remove the blue wire from the black screw on the 3-way switch in the garage. What is the voltage reading between that blue wire and ground?

 

Remove the orange wire connected to the black screw on the 3-way switch inside the house. What is the voltage reading between that orange wire and ground?

Edited May 15, 2016 by stusviews

[apostolakisl]

Neutrals are good.  I have no ground wires in any box (the boxes and conduit do the grounding, no ground wires anywhere).

 

Having trouble finding the hot.

 

Breaker ON, lights OFF.  Box #1 has one wire with voltage (black screw), the two others have no voltage.

 

Box #2 (inside the garage), has voltage going to two wires (the blue wire and one of the orange).

 

You have to unhook all of the wires.  If you are testing to a screw, it is not unhooked.  This includes the wires at the fixture.

 

I have to say I have never seen residential use conduit to all of the boxes and I thought code called for grounds for a really really long time (even in the presence of grounded conduit).

 

Just to be clear, your going to have to unhook everything anyway at the two switchboxes, you are only adding work by unhooking and then rehooking at the fixture.  And there is a good chance that the best way to wire this would have you changing the wires at the fixture as well.

Edited May 15, 2016 by apostolakisl

[larryllix]

You have to unhook all of the wires.  If you are testing to a screw, it is not unhooked.  This includes the wires at the fixture.

 

I have to say I have never seen residential use conduit to all of the boxes and I thought code called for grounds for a really really long time (even in the presence of grounded conduit).

Look at the conductor colours. Somebody brought home control cable from an industrial job and wired their own house.

 

Whether the switches are wired into the neutral is about to be established. Stu told him to take the wires off for  a retest.

Edited May 15, 2016 by larryllix

[mwester]

Look at the conductor colours. Somebody brought home control cable from an industrial job and wired their own house.

 

Whether the switches are wired into the neutral is about to be established. Stu told him to take the wires off for  a retest.

 

Not necessarily...  When I lived in one of the Chicago suburbs (conduit required by code), I had to pull some extra conductors through various parts of the house, and in order to ensure that I didn't confuse myself I chose colors that weren't already used anywhere in the house -- orange, yellow, and light blue.  Because I had to wire the basement for a rec room and a workshop later on, I saved money by buying 500' spools of the orange and yellow -- the point being that the basement got wired with white, orange, and yellow wiring, all completely legit, per code (it was inspected and passed), and not at all "control cable".

 

Also, using the conduit as ground was completely acceptable in Chicago and surrounding counties.  I did pull one run to my home office for the computer equipment with a ground wire and it's own outlet -- if I recall correctly, one uses a specially marked and colored outlet to signify such a dedicated run.

 

Regarding the original post, I think code demands a switch at each entrance to an attached garage.  So removing the switch by that door, unless the door is permanently sealed and completely inoperable (not just "unused, it has to be sealed in some way), it may be a code violation to remove that switch.  Just sayin.

[stusviews]

I used flex and metal boxes when we added a bedroom which is required in certain municipal codes (and Canada), as pointed out by mwester. The wiring was done in seven colors plus white and gray (so I could distinguish neutrals) using 12 AWG. Each traveler is a different color (now all Insteon). My wife actually enjoyed pulling wire