Inaccurate Rate Notifications

[fmk2]

Since PG&E's last update to their SmartRate plans, I'm seeing more and more information in both the ISY Dashboard and Admin Console.  That's a good thing.  But I'm also getting some rather bizarre notifications from the ISY and MobileLinc.

 

The notifications I get are whenever I change Tiers in my energy plan, and that's a good thing.  But the info isn't correct.  Here's what I'm seeing:

1. The popup messages in the Admin Console (like the one I've attached) continue to pop up every few minutes.  I dismiss them, but they pop back up again and again.
2. The information in those popups isn't accurate.  For example, the "Duration" in the attached image says the current rate will last for 2016 minutes -- or just over 33-1/2 hours -- but I'm pretty sure that's not correct.  (The "SmartDay" notification at the bottom of the window is correct -- we are scheduled to have a "SmartDay Event" tomorrow afternoon.)
3. Finally, I now see rate notifications in the MobileLinc Pro app, but they are also wrong.  They contain information like, "Price has changed to $0.53 USD/kWh. This price is active for 360 minutes."  That's almost accurate, except that the temporary rate increase was to $0.60 USD/kWh for 5 hours (600 Minutes), and it was yesterday.  I'm seeing this popup in the app repeatedly today.

Anyone else seeing behavior like this?  Any suggestions for getting a handle on it?

Thanks,

 Frank

 

 

[Teken]

I have nothing of value to add to your query but is the rate of $0.60 KWH correct?!?!

[larryllix]

I have nothing of value to add to your query but is the rate of $0.60 KWH correct?!?!

Only when the system is at a critical point and once you use three times the expected energy consumption allowed at cheaper rates ($0.11) for  household per month.

 

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC_TOU

 

 

Sure gives being energy economical new meaning for many US citizens.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank,

 

Questions:

1. What is your ISY's firmware version?

2. These are messages that are sent by PG&E. They are "text" and thus ISY does not translate/transform them in any way, shape, or form. So, you might want to check /rest/emeter/message/log to see all the messages that are sent to you

3. Also, can you please test the Dashboard (instead of the Admin Console)?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[fmk2]

I have nothing of value to add to your query but is the rate of $0.60 KWH correct?!?!

We're on a special rate plan that has lower than average kWh rates except for 10-15 days a year during the summer months when we are charged $0.60 kWh for up to 6 hours during peak demand on that day.  We're notified in advance, and the expectation is that you keep your usage low during those hours.  The rest of the time, our rates are much lower than they were before we went onto this plan.

 

The screenshot I sent included the notice for one of those special high-rate periods.  The date and times it specified were correct, so that much is working.

[fmk2]

Hi Michel;

 

Thanks for the response.  Here are the answers to your questions:

1. The ISY firmware, according to the Dashboard, is "Insteon_UD994_OADR | v.4.4.6 | 2016-03-24-09:28:28".

2. As for the log, I see thousands of messages, one every few minutes.  I guess that must be why I'm continuing to see them pop up.  Here's an example of one of them from a couple days ago, selected at random:

A 2016/06/02 4:53:52 AM Log M 923281 Running Unconfirmed 2016/06/02 4:30:00 AM 5400 Low false N/A 06/01: Estimated Electric Bill to Date: $207.81, Forecasted Electric Bill: $216.24.

 

Any idea why those are being generated continuously?

 

3. The Dashboard info seems to be accurate, and I don't get popup messages at all there.  The only question I would have about that information would be why the current Price is blinking yellow.  Is that just to highlight the current rate, or is there some other meaning?

 

Thanks again.

 Frank

[Teken]

We're on a special rate plan that has lower than average kWh rates except for 10-15 days a year during the summer months when we are charged $0.60 kWh for up to 6 hours during peak demand on that day.  We're notified in advance, and the expectation is that you keep your usage low during those hours.  The rest of the time, our rates are much lower than they were before we went onto this plan.

 

The screenshot I sent included the notice for one of those special high-rate periods.  The date and times it specified were correct, so that much is working.

 

Hello fmk2,

 

Could you share with the group what the rate was before you went on this plan? Along with what the lower rate is now with the new plan in place?

 

All I can say is *Holy Sh^T* if I had to pay $0.60 per KWH I would be in the poor house! Just trying to better understand where you live and if you know why the rates are so  high. I've read about a few places with high electrical charges like Hawaii and others but $0.60 per KWH is just wow. 

[paulbates]

Teken

 

The higher rate is only applied on demand peaks, and there are a fixed number of those the POCO can impose a year with these programs.  They try to steer you to run appliances like dish washers, washers and dryers, off peak. You don't know for sure when the demand peak will be called, but generally the hottest business days, during the day.

 

We have that option in SE Michigan. Here is an example of how the DTE program works. Look under Dynamic Peak Pricing. They indicate 10% savings versus the traditional program. They can call the higher rate up to 20 times a year, total of 80 hours.

 

I have the smart meter and their app to measure use, but do not participate in the variable rate program.

 

Paul

[Teken]

Teken

 

The higher rate is only applied on demand peaks, and there are a fixed number of those the POCO can impose a year with these programs.  They try to steer you to run appliances like dish washers, washers and dryers, off peak. You don't know for sure when the demand peak will be called, but generally the hottest business days, during the day.

 

We have that option in SE Michigan. Here is an example of how the DTE program works. Look under Dynamic Peak Pricing. They indicate 10% savings versus the traditional program. They can call the higher rate up to 20 times a year, total of 80 hours.

 

I have the smart meter and their app to measure use, but do not participate in the variable rate program.

 

Paul

 

Hey Paul,

 

Can you offer some insight as to why you decided not to participate in such a program? Off the top of my head some basic reasons would be it doesn't meet your lifestyle and hence more likely it would cost you more to be on it.

 

EDIT: Just read the link provided by you and wow $0.95 during CPP!

[larryllix]

Teken

 

The higher rate is only applied on demand peaks, and there are a fixed number of those the POCO can impose a year with these programs.  They try to steer you to run appliances like dish washers, washers and dryers, off peak. You don't know for sure when the demand peak will be called, but generally the hottest business days, during the day.

 

We have that option in SE Michigan. Here is an example of how the DTE program works. Look under Dynamic Peak Pricing. They indicate 10% savings versus the traditional program. They can call the higher rate up to 20 times a year, total of 80 hours.

 

I have the smart meter and their app to measure use, but do not participate in the variable rate program.

 

Paul

Nice! You guys pay up to 95 cents  per kWh in Mi!

 

Ontario is only up to about 17 cents per kWh so far.

I can't get TOU so I use as much as possible during peaks to keep on my PV mostly...it's cheaper for me.

 

Watch California rates. They are about 30 years ahead of everybody else so whatever they do is coming to a meter near you.

 

People don't understand what is happening.

The utilities establish a higher and lower rate for peak / off peak.... and a shoulder rate to avoid "rush hour" energy consumption.

If people don't listen they widen the rate difference, until they do.

 

It's all about education of energy usage and if people don't get educated they are going to pay more, until they do. Then they will get penalised for not using enough.

 

Once they get the general populace under control they will attempt to discontinue natural gas and other energy resources, as is being suggested in Ontario right now by our own Sarah Palin clone. This will bring the usage of electrical energy back into mass quantities so they can get the mass produced price down burning.....natural gas and other highly polluting fuels.

 

HUHAS come to anybody's mind?

 

Somebody is going to pay the bills. It's all about getting  somebody else to  pay the bills.

 

 

hmmmm.... have you figured out the Insteon gas valves yet?

Just remember to keep your gas lighting levels dimmed, and not melt your white  wall insulation. 

[paulbates]

Hey Paul,

 

Can you offer some insight as to why you decided not to participate in such a program? Off the top of my head some basic reasons would be it doesn't meet your lifestyle and hence more likely it would cost you more to be on it.

Hey Teken, 3 reasons

1. Lifestyle, as you suggested. We have a lot going on, an timing the chores to appliances to an arbitrary schedule did not go over well. Especially when the highest rate days are not predictable.

    

2. DTE does not support AMI/ADR. I got the 9941ZS hoping to automatically control lights, appliances and HVAC based on automating the Demand Peak notifications. After over a year of persistence, I determined that  DTE simply won't allow me to configure the ISY to poll the meter. How do their notifications work? They send emails and texts on demand conditions... .. That went over worse then the above item here... If I'm out of town, my wife is already at work and then get a notification.... Its simply not a manageable, practical solution as implemented here.

    

3. The pain is not worth the gain: DTE has a combined gas/electric use metric, we're down 41% on that compared to prior years, mostly based on insulation, HVAC replacement/Smart Thermostats and ISY programs.  While some of that was climate based, via fewer heating degree days last year vs 2014;  it was only ~12% of the difference. Our energy costs are down and the projects are paying for themselves... 10% more of that bill is now not a big a number comparatively. We also averaged 15% rebates back from DTE on the investments in HVAC and Insulation projects; so they'll pay off sooner.

I'm now hoping the the RATES program UDI is proposing catches on and something like that could be offered here. Probably out in the future a ways and I'm on my own automation wise.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

<snipped>

I'm now hoping the the RATES program UDI is proposing catches on and something like that could be offered here. Probably out in the future a ways and I'm on my own automation wise.

 

Paul

Trouble with these plans is the utilities. The utility I worked for had to garbage 80,000 perfectly good meters and replace them with 80,000 electronic TOU meters in two years. The mechanical meters are not recyclable. the glass is hardened Pyrex glass, and the metals are all mixed inseparable metals. Landfill.

 

Normally the mechanical meters were untouched for 12 years, 5% brought in for sampling and then another 4-6 years, another sampling of 5%, another 4-6 years, and so on until failure. This all took about three men.

 

The electronic meters replacing them are good for 6 years, as nobody trusts them. Then they are garbaged and completely replaced. Most don't make it that long as the technology gets unusable with the new ideas that flow. Problems are massive. readings can have any digit jump forward or backward without notice, go blank, or whatever the computer world can think up. Mechanical meters were always accurate, slowed down from friction or stopped.

 

Now to get a smooth labour cycle some of those new meters have to brought in early and garbaged every year or so over the first 6 years or you have to lay off and try to rehire labour at the 6 year mark that requires a 6 year apprenticeship to work freely.

 

Before all this nonsense we paid about 4 cents per kWh and that included delivery and all the extras. Now that we are saving energy, we pay 9 cents per kWh plus delivery (off peak) , meter charge, etc. for a net of about 16-20 cents per kWh. less than ten years later.

 

To top this all off, the industry has their choice of getting approvals for ZigBee, or many, many proprietary systems that were much cheaper. We picked some proprietary system that offered better front end stuff.

 

Now we come along with "we want to hook into your meter system so you have to replace all your meters again" and the utility goes

 

     "What?!!!". "You want to cost us another 5-6 million dollars so you can help customers avoid buying  our product?"

     "Why would we co-operate with your toys?", "Get out of our way!"

 

Get ready for $10 per kWh rates so we can afford the next wave energy saving programs the government will force on the utilities.

Better yet, lets deregulate the industry so that can compete against each other!. That will bring the rates down after we form huge government utilities to police the utilities rates, policies, safety practices, power quality!

 

We are on our own... Make sure your share of the bill is as low as you can get.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank,

 

ISY queries the meter every few minutes and messages are retrieved when queried so that's what you see in the log. Please click on the Confirm button (if enabled). We have to remove the message popups in the Admin Console. That's a bug.

 

The yellow blinking price means that ISY got a new price from the meter. So, that's the price that's being sent by PG&E. Is it correct?

 

All,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback and excellent discussion. In CA we do have very many rates (7 tiers) which make things very difficult for customers. CPUC rule 15-007-01 tried to address these rates and they came up with 4 tier pricing with a super user (those who do not care or cannot reduce demand). What Frank is seeing is based on this new rate structure. What we proposed with RATES is: let the customers decide how much they want to use (i.e. one subscription price per month).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[larryllix]

Hi Frank,

 

ISY queries the meter every few minutes and messages are retrieved when queried so that's what you see in the log. Please click on the Confirm button (if enabled). We have to remove the message popups in the Admin Console. That's a bug.

 

The yellow blinking price means that ISY got a new price from the meter. So, that's the price that's being sent by PG&E. Is it correct?

 

All,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback and excellent discussion. In CA we do have very many rates (7 tiers) which make things very difficult for customers. CPUC rule 15-007-01 tried to address these rates and they came up with 4 tier pricing with a super user (those who do not care or cannot reduce demand). What Frank is seeing is based on this new rate structure. What we proposed with RATES is: let the customers decide how much they want to use (i.e. one subscription price per month).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I am wondering how much information you get from the utility.

 

This sounds like the "current rate" and a "Rate change" flag or maybe that one is just ISY generated?

What other information is available and/or will ISY display it all?

[Teken]

Hey Teken, 3 reasons

1. Lifestyle, as you suggested. We have a lot going on, an timing the chores to appliances to an arbitrary schedule did not go over well. Especially when the highest rate days are not predictable.

    

2. DTE does not support AMI/ADR. I got the 9941ZS hoping to automatically control lights, appliances and HVAC based on automating the Demand Peak notifications. After over a year of persistence, I determined that  DTE simply won't allow me to configure the ISY to poll the meter. How do their notifications work? They send emails and texts on demand conditions... .. That went over worse then the above item here... If I'm out of town, my wife is already at work and then get a notification.... Its simply not a manageable, practical solution as implemented here.

    

3. The pain is not worth the gain: DTE has a combined gas/electric use metric, we're down 41% on that compared to prior years, mostly based on insulation, HVAC replacement/Smart Thermostats and ISY programs.  While some of that was climate based, via fewer heating degree days last year vs 2014;  it was only ~12% of the difference. Our energy costs are down and the projects are paying for themselves... 10% more of that bill is now not a big a number comparatively. We also averaged 15% rebates back from DTE on the investments in HVAC and Insulation projects; so they'll pay off sooner.

I'm now hoping the the RATES program UDI is proposing catches on and something like that could be offered here. Probably out in the future a ways and I'm on my own automation wise.

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Appreciate the insight and feed back as I am always interested to see what is happening in other areas of NA. Along with the *Why's* to people opting in / out of such programs.

 

To me as a lay person I can sort of understand the peak charges but lets be honest. 

 

The opposite (savings) better be worth it to the consumer because there is no way that it pencils out or makes sense when in your example of $0.95 for CPP. I would expect and want my other none peak tiers to be like $0.01 - 0.05 per KWH!

 

There is no way anyone can ever explain away how someone could be charged 10 to 20 times the going rate. In the big picture its good the industry and people are trying to do their part and conserve and reduce the energy consumption in their regions. But some of the methods and ideas really are out of this world if I hadn't seen the $0.95 CPP rate in writing I would have easily called out bull sh^t instantly.

 

But, shame on me in thinking the world is fair, and run with common sense . . .

 

I can't even imagine the poor [censored] who gets a bill in that tier because they forgot to communicate that information to the family etc.

 

Just wow . . .

[paulbates]

Paul,

 

Appreciate the insight and feed back as I am always interested to see what is happening in other areas of NA. Along with the *Why's* to people opting in / out of such programs.

 

To me as a lay person I can sort of understand the peak charges but lets be honest. 

 

The opposite (savings) better be worth it to the consumer because there is no way that it pencils out or makes sense when in your example of $0.95 for CPP. I would expect and want my other none peak tiers to be like $0.01 - 0.05 per KWH!

 

There is no way anyone can ever explain away how someone could be charged 10 to 20 times the going rate. In the big picture its good the industry and people are trying to do their part and conserve and reduce the energy consumption in their regions. But some of the methods and ideas really are out of this world if I hadn't seen the $0.95 CPP rate in writing I would have easily called out bull sh^t instantly.

 

But, shame on me in thinking the world is fair, and run with common sense . . .

 

I can't even imagine the poor [censored] who gets a bill in that tier because they forgot to communicate that information to the family etc.

 

Just wow . . .

 

Agreed Teken,  ADR is a 'problem focused' approach that heavily penalizes non-business customer for unpredictable demand peaks.

 

I've learned to live with it under "interruptible" service we've had on our A/C for 25 years. The reality is that the demand peaks rarely happen that shut off our A/C... for very cheap power always on that meter.    

 

If you've seen UDI's proposal for RATES in a recent post, its turning the business model inside-out by not trying to manically solve it by measuring all of the details.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

<snipped>

 

There is no way anyone can ever explain away how someone could be charged 10 to 20 times the going rate. In the big picture its good the industry and people are trying to do their part and conserve and reduce the energy consumption in their regions. But some of the methods and ideas really are out of this world if I hadn't seen the $0.95 CPP rate in writing I would have easily called out bull sh^t instantly.

 

But, shame on me in thinking the world is fair, and run with common sense . . .

 

I can't even imagine the poor [censored] who gets a bill in that tier because they forgot to communicate that information to the family etc.

 

Just wow . . .

If you look at the rates of trade for electrical energy between provinces and big utilities they occasionally pay over $100 per kWh when in trouble, in Canada.

 

The utilities attempt to predict how much power is going to be needed every hour of the day so that nuclear, the cheapest and cleanest, energy can be set to produce that much. Actually since it is so dangerous to match the peak, they set them for the base load and use other, more flexible generation to generate the peak as needed.

 

Now, at time they generate too much and sell if for down to 0.00 cents per kWh.

 

...but when they miscalculate, in Ontario, and get caught short for energy, they quickly go to market for those last few  kWh from Manitoba or Quebec, New York, Michigan  or Ohio,

 

"So you are in trouble and stuck? Well......", suddenly Ohio charges $100 per kWh 'cause they can. Ontario figures it's only for an hour or so and averages out.  I assume Ontario does the same thing when they can. Dog eat dog.

 

Customers on spot rate prices pay that for the time it costs that much. They just suck up on the averages also.

 

Four hours later the price is back to $0.02 per kWh and things resume like nothing happened.

 

These energy scalpers are offering prices closer to the real price at the time = spot pricing.

[Scottmichaelj]

This all sound like unicorns in the sky! With oil production going down and our usage less depended on oil, more PV farms then ever before, plus the fact that we now have more energy saving appliances and the like, rates should be stabilizing or being lowered. Clean energy costs less to produce and we are using more of it everyday so why are the consumers (us) not seeing direct benefits yet is confusing to me. Oh no sorry its not! The utilities are saying "uh oh we are loosing money because of PV and we need to keep the rates where they are or start charging more so we don't disappoint our shareholders and fatcat executives who make billions of dollars in salary."

 

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this?

[larryllix]

The new "cleaner" energy resources cost more to capture the energy and we have to pay for it. Ontario just started bragging about shutting down all the coal conversion plants. This was the cheapest fuel for electrical energy production but the dirtiest. Now we can blame our lung cancer bills on Ohio when we buy their energy for $100 per kWh. 

 

With all the electrical energy industry attention, real costs are becoming more obvious for placement, as the industry analyses this and analyses that.

The shift in costs placement is away from the actual energy resource and more towards the delivery, using the system, and maintenance of said systems.

 

The system costs are the same, and if the energy consumption goes down, the unit costs become higher.

 

Since the so-called "cleaner" energy resources are so unreliable, like wind energy, and solar PV  energy, we have to have two and three complete systems for generation in place, including the original and dependable one. Oh my  aching wallet!

 

I remember, in the 70s, how they tooted "all electric heated homes" with the R2000 certified home brag. Quiet, clean, but we don't see that anymore. They hide it like it like a pregnant preteen daughter.

 

But now it is "cool"  and "faddish" to have an electric car despite being  horrible waste of energy, porting it to batteries and back. Once the electrical energy rates are competitive with other forms we will probably see the same walk of shame for electric vehicles, except in crowded city areas where the pollution should be swept away by ocean breezes into neighbouring states.

 

Hydrogen was a complete farce before the so-called "scientists" got their bluff  called by real facts.  Interestingly enough, there is more hydrogen molecules, in a litre of gasoline, than there is in a litre of pure liquid hydrogen. The **exergy of hydrogen is about 3%, at it's best. The cost of converting electricity to hydrogen is outrageous! Then there is the compression and the storage in containers. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule so that it cannot be stored in any material known to man without leaking through the walls.

 

** "exergy" is the net  efficiency, converting an energy from one form to another, and back. Hydrogen fuel cells are examples of this.

 

Right now electrical energy is the best "fad" energy, and we can work with it using things we already know, like ISY994 to make it more efficient.

[Scottmichaelj]

The new "cleaner" energy resources cost more to capture the energy and we have to pay for it. Ontario just started bragging about shutting down all the coal conversion plants. This was the cheapest fuel for electrical energy production but the dirtiest. Now we can blame our lung cancer bills on Ohio when we buy their energy for $100 per kWh.

 

With all the electrical energy industry attention, real costs are becoming more obvious for placement, as the industry analyses this and analyses that.

The shift in costs placement is away from the actual energy resource and more towards the delivery, using the system, and maintenance of said systems.

 

The system costs are the same, and if the energy consumption goes down, the unit costs become higher.

 

Since the so-called "cleaner" energy resources are so unreliable, like wind energy, and solar PV energy, we have to have two and three complete systems for generation in place, including the original and dependable one. Oh my aching wallet!

 

I remember, in the 70s, how they tooted "all electric heated homes" with the R2000 certified home brag. Quiet, clean, but we don't see that anymore. They hide it like it like a pregnant preteen daughter.

 

But now it is "cool" and "faddish" to have an electric car despite being horrible waste of energy, porting it to batteries and back. Once the electrical energy rates are competitive with other forms we will probably see the same walk of shame for electric vehicles, except in crowded city areas where the pollution should be swept away by ocean breezes into neighbouring states.

 

Hydrogen was a complete farce before the so-called "scientists" got their bluff called by real facts. Interestingly enough, there is more hydrogen molecules, in a litre of gasoline, than there is in a litre of pure liquid hydrogen. The **exergy of hydrogen is about 3%, at it's best. The cost of converting electricity to hydrogen is outrageous! Then there is the compression and the storage in containers. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule so that it cannot be stored in any material known to man without leaking through the walls.

 

** "exergy" is the net efficiency, converting an energy from one form to another, and back. Hydrogen fuel cells are examples of this.

 

Right now electrical energy is the best "fad" energy, and we can work with it using things we already know, like ISY994 to make it more efficient.

As always insightful comments from you Larry. Here where I live in the PNW, PSE has hydro electric and our rates are about .12cents per kWh with no tiers. After installing my Brutech energy monitoring and shaving down costs I "maybe" saved 500kwh per month which is a $60 savings. At this rate it will take me more years than I want to admit to recover my energy monitoring investment than I save per month not to mention my time. I rather have spent that $60 towards a bottle of wine!

 

On the flip side when I lived in CA I did PV as I was looking at a ROI in 3 years due to the tier system there from PG&E. I wish the government would stop giving rebates, yac deductions and grant handouts and just put that $$ into the Poco's pocket to recover the costs to switch to green sources. Give the Pocos the incentive to switch faster.

 

Lets not begin to try and see if the ROI on an electric vehicle makes sense in CA or any state for that matter with oil prices where they are today. Maybe they do I dono I don't own a Tesla, I prefer to hear my engine. Lol

[Teken]

I can only speak for myself but for me most if not all things I do in my home. ROI is not at the top of the list of priorities when I make an investment to new technology or hardware upgrade.

 

For others I am sure ROI is top of mind and is the primary driver . . .

 

The reality is most if not all expensive investments just doesn't pencil out over the long term if one is thinking about the cycle life of a product.

 

Then again, there are things that offer immediate savings and results which are indeed tangible in terms of savings whether it be personal comfort, energy consumption, environmental.

 

A perfect example is investing in insulation in a home - To a certain extent it doesn't matter how you do it so long as its done properly and rated for the environment. This single investment will keep paying for itself over time forever. The effects are immediate and noticeable to the home and the human inside.

 

When you talk about things like geo-thermal unless you are extremely lucky to have purchased the best gear in the market. None of these systems will pencil out in terms of ROI, durability, or long term use. The constant energy draw, maintenance, and failed parts that need to be replaced not only extends to the so called ROI.

 

But sadly takes away the whole point in investing in such a system . . .

 

Geo-thermal makes sense in extreme weathers like where I live but the insanely expensive price to install said system doesn't make sense in the short term, or even long term, if (true savings) is the primary factor.

 

People will see more immediate and long term savings in planning, designing, and deploying a passive hause. 

 

The techniques and process is well documented in the industry and I only wish I knew more when I decided to build my home seven years ago!

 

Using Passive Hause techniques adds about 10 - 38% more to the final bill. But the immediate savings and human comfort is forever and costs you nothing ever again. That in my eyes is true ROI because you see huge savings each and every year forever . . .

 

When people talk about appliances like fridges, freezers, you're hard pressed to see huge gains in savings unless your coming from a 1950 - 1980 appliance. Given the feds in both countries have mandated extremely tight rules in the new Energy Star 2 testing and certification.

 

It now comes down to quality, reliability, and initial cost for said appliance. 

 

Then again, if you purchase an insanely priced and dumb so called smart fridge from Samsung which has silly cameras so you can see what items are inside. Well, Charlie Brown its not likely you will ever see a ROI in the lifetime of that product because it will have failed long before you ever see the ROI come to be!

 

When you talk about devices like the ISY, GEM, Dash Box, etc.

 

It really comes down to how you use and implement the systems in your home. If its strictly in terms of energy monitoring it will probably take a long time to ever see actual savings. If you on the other hand push forward in the energy management than things start to make sense and savings can and will be had.

 

As I stated in another thread lots of people go into the whole energy thing out of curiosity / fad. Very few if any of the people who get into this as a fad ever pass the next steps into energy management. For those who's curiosity has transitioned into wants / needs, than things get interesting and lots of potential is available.

 

Most if not all of these things could be easily resolved by having nothing . . .

 

If you live like a hermit and your needs and wants are low - this same sort of mentality will literally translate to lower costs for energy. But none of that is fun, inspired, or long term for the human and its companions in life.

 

Life is very much about choices and priorities - Like Scott had mentioned he values overall enjoyment vs pushing the envelope in energy savings. While others try to find a balance of the two and hopefully find a middle ground with Baby Duck!

 

Ha . . . 

[fmk2]

Sorry for not responding sooner to some of the questions that were asked of me.  The day job has been running me ragged lately, so I haven't had any time to play.

 

Michel, thanks for the explanation of the messages I've been seeing.  That makes sense.

 

Regarding our rate plan, I selected this "SmartRate" plan that PG&E has because it was cheaper than the standard tiered plan that we were on.  All of the PG&E plans are expensive -- that's just a fact of life if you live in Northern California, and especially so if you're a geek like me with lots of electronic toys.    But the "SmartRate" plan at least gives us some modest level of control over our own destiny in that there are designated Peak, Partial Peak and Off Peak hours each day, and the cost per kWh varies by those periods.  If you keep your usage to a minimum during the Peak hours, your overall bill is substantially lower.  We've been able to do that to a reasonable extent, and we are seeing lower bills than in the past.

 

As for the very high rate that I mentioned earlier, it is in effect for no more than 15 designated "SmartRate" days per summer.  On those days, the rate goes to $0.60/kWh between 2:00 and 7:00 PM.  PG&E announces these days in advance, so you can be extra careful of your electric usage during those periods.  This has been fine for us; our charges during the 4 "SmartRate" periods we've had so far this year have been insignificant because we've used very little electricity during those times.

 

All that said, we're looking at what "macro" changes we can make to lower the overall electric usage.  For example, our house attic is insulated, but only with about 6-8 inches of spay-in insulation.  We have a sheet metal roof (formed and textured to look like Spanish tile), so the attic gets very hot on summer afternoons, and in turn keeps the house warm well into the evening.  I don't know exactly how to quantify it ahead of time, but I suspect we would be able to run the air conditioner less during evening hours if we doubled the attic insulation.  Our walls (stucco) are not insulated at all, so that's an area worth investigating as well.

 

The bottom line is that California has some of the highest electric rates in the country, and it's just one more "feature" of living here.  [sigh]

 

Frank

[Teken]

Frank,

 

That was awesome insight and thank you for circling back with the group. I noted you said the stucco walls have no insulation at all was that a typo?!?!

 

If true you literally have stucco -> vapor barrier -> OSB / Plywood -> 2x4 / 2x6 Framing -> Drywall / Plaster? If so I can only imagine the massive amount of heat saturation with my thermo imaging gun!

 

It would be like living in a hot box oven . . .

 

Wow!

[fmk2]

Frank,

 

That was awesome insight and thank you for circling back with the group. I noted you said the stucco walls have no insulation at all was that a typo?!?!

 

If true you literally have stucco -> vapor barrier -> OSB / Plywood -> 2x4 / 2x6 Framing -> Drywall / Plaster? If so I can only imagine the massive amount of heat saturation with my thermo imaging gun!

 

It would be like living in a hot box oven . . .

 

Wow!

 

Hi Teken;

 

Yes, the house walls are exactly as you described -- stucco on the outside, with chicken wire, a vapor barrier, the wood frame and then drywall.  We have mostly windows on the west wall (double-pane energy efficient), and part of that wall was insulated during a remodel we did 8 years ago, but there is still some uninsulated area.  The remaining walls are virtually uninsulated.  The South wall is on the short side of the rectangular house, but is probably the worst problem because of the sun exposure it gets.  The front is again largely windows plus the garage, so perhaps not as much impact there.  The north sees little or no direct sun, of course.

 

We not only live in an oven, we also live in a Faraday cage.  Between the metal roof and the chicken wire behind the stucco, getting a cell signal in the house can be a challenge -- you have to know where to stand.  I'm also a ham radio operator, and using a handheld radio ("walkie-talkie") from inside the house is impossible.

 

But yeah, insulation is our next energy saving move.  It seems to be the one thing that could have a significant impact on our energy bill.

 

Frank

[larryllix]

What would the vapour barrier be doing there?

 

In colder climates, we use vapour barrier to keep the interior moisture out of the insulation so it can't freeze, and nullify the insulation properties, conducting heat out. Injected solid foam insulation doesn't require a vapour barrier to protect it from condensation.

 

An outer membrane just under brick or siding to allow the moisture out of the insulation and framing but not allow water into the framing.