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PUZZLING IO-LINK problem BRAINS PLEASE

johnstonf

By johnstonf
in ISY994

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johnstonf Advanced

johnstonf

Posted
Posted
A puzzle maybe you can help me solve???

 

Background:

 

Using 2 Outdoor Switches and one IO-LINK connected to a LuxPro Cooling/Heating

programmable weekday/weekend Thermostat.  The Tstat terminals RH/RC and "w"

(heating) are wired to the IO-LINK GND/S(ensor), sending on/off signals to the ISY,

which then turns on/off two window fans via 2 Insteon OutdoorSwitches (so the

IO-Link is NOT directly controlling the switches).  This all works GREAT on the bench.

 

At 3am, something wonky happens...

 

(more background...)

I am using the “Heating” mode of thermostat (so don’t need to change wires in Tstat

in between summer/winter, AND avoids cooling mode 5 minute protection between

cycles).  The Tstat is set to 18c (desired temp of bedroom for sleeping),

and the ambient room temp is 26c (at 3am when incident happens). 

 

This all works on the bench fine, during the day, when testing.  HOWEVER...

Somehow, each morning at 3am, the 

IO-LINK goes out of synch with the Tstat, even though the Tstat continues to call

for the fans to be on (the heat to be OFF).  In this state, the room continues to

heat up (no fans), so the fans never come back on automatically.

.

Below shows logs of when problem occurs…

.

Situation is that Tstat is set at 18c, room temp is well above that, at 26c, but at 3am

the IO-Link goes stupid, and goes to an OFF state, so the ISY follows suit, and turns

off the fans for the night, even though the Tstat still calls for cooling.  I ohm’d the

Stat, and it was still open (calling for cooling).  On the bench, i connected a 

micro-switch to the sensor inputs (Gnd-S(ensor)) and bounced switch a few times to

try to “fool” it, but it is rock solid, and follows suit when switch is opened/closed.

Thus, even IF the Tstat bounced at 3am, the IO-LINK will follow suit. Why at same

time each day? (within 5 seconds).  Can the ISY somehow SET the IO-LINK state?

.

.

.

> > > > > This is Tuesday, June 27, in wee hours of morning…

> > > > > This is from around 3am (just before to just after)

> > > > > At this point, IO-LINK goes off, and all fans turn off for rest of the night

> > > > > …even though the Tstat stays open (still calling for fans)

> > > > > …but the IO-LINC turns off

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / DIM#1-LivRm-WINDOW    Status    3%    Mon 2016/06/27 02:10:12 AM    System    Log    

Scene:ISY    Status    Query    Mon 2016/06/27 03:00:00 AM    Program    Log    

Tstat-Main    Status    25.5°    Mon 2016/06/27 03:00:31 AM    System    Log    

ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINC-BR-Sensor    Status    0%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:00:59 AM    System    Log    

ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINK-BR-Relay    Status    0%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:01:00 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan    Off    0    Mon 2016/06/27 03:01:29 AM    Program    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Off    0    Mon 2016/06/27 03:01:29 AM    Program    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan    Status    0%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:01:29 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Status    0%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:01:29 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Status    100%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:02:00 AM    System    Log    

Tstat-Main    Humidity    64%    Mon 2016/06/27 03:05:25 AM    System    Log    

.

.

> > > > > This is Tuesday, June 28, in wee hours of morning…

> > > > > This is from around 3am (just before to just after)

> > > > > At this point, IO-LINK goes off, and all fans turn off for rest of the night

> > > > > …even though the Tstat stays open (still calling for fans)

> > > > > …but the IO-LINC turns off

Scene:ISY    Status    Query    Tue 2016/06/28 03:00:00 AM    Program    Log    

ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINC-BR-Sensor    Status    0%    Tue 2016/06/28 03:00:58 AM    System    Log    

ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINK-BR-Relay    Status    0%    Tue 2016/06/28 03:00:59 AM    System    Log    

Tstat-Main    Humidity    48%    Tue 2016/06/28 03:01:23 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan    Off    0    Tue 2016/06/28 03:01:25 AM    Program    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Off    0    Tue 2016/06/28 03:01:25 AM    Program    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan    Status    0%    Tue 2016/06/28 03:01:25 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Status    0%    Tue 2016/06/28 03:01:25 AM    System    Log    

> > > > > …i manually turned the fan on, as so hot in the room…

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR    Status    100%    Tue 2016/06/28 05:47:48 AM    System    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-HUMIDIFIERPLANTS    On         Tue 2016/06/28 06:00:00 AM    Program    Log    

DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-HUMIDIFIERPLANTS    Status    100%    Tue 2016/06/28 06:00:01 AM    System    Log    

> > > > > END OF ABOVE SECTION

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larryllix Advanced

larryllix

Posted
Posted

At three AM you probably have an ISY query going on.

 

I am also guessing that you have the option "Reverse status" enabled in your IOLink input. The Reverse option should have never been created.

 

When you query an IOLInk it sends back the real "unreversed" status from the contacts. Later when it reports in the reversed option changes it back again.

 

Remove the "Reverse" option and rewrite your program logic to match.

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

Is there really two I/O lincs in your network? also why is there such a long hold time?

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

Are your fans actually turning off or is your ISY just reporting them as Off?

 

You can try disabling your 3:00 am query program tonight, although tonight may be too cool to make it work and you will have to wait until Wednesday night.

 

No need to wait just set the appropriate time and see what happens.

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

Good point!  I'll try it...

P.S. Is the query daily really necessary?

 

The 3:00 AM Query is needed to ensure the correct status of the Insteon network is reflected in the ISY Series Controller. If there are out of band scenarios where the power is removed or where manual inclusions were done. If these devices rely on programs to operate based on correct status then they would fail to operate correctly.

 

For me funny enough I no longer use the 3:00 AM Query as it consumes a massive amount of memory and resources on a very limited processor platform.

 

It also impacts proper time tracking if your system has many programs running at the same time. As the system is event driven and very much follows FIFO topology.

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johnstonf Advanced

johnstonf

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Well, somehow you nailed it!... i am very puzzled why, though...

 

I ran the "then" of the query, and about a minute later, the IO-LINK status went stupid...

and fans turned off.

 

So, the LED is on BRIGHT on the IO-LINK, but the state if OFF... GO FIGURE!

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

Well, somehow you nailed it!... i am very puzzled why, though...

 

I ran the "then" of the query, and about a minute later, the IO-LINK status went stupid...

and fans turned off.

 

So, the LED is on BRIGHT on the IO-LINK, but the state if OFF... GO FIGURE!

 

Are you monitoring the sensor or the relay in your program? If the relay it will always return to the off state - keep in mind others have used the *control* vs *status* for various reasons so that is another option.

 

Lastly, what is the reason for the long hold time of 24 seconds?

 

Can you also insert the entire program for others to review perhaps there is a very simple code issue. Also is there a reason you didn't use the *C* option instead of A / B?

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johnstonf Advanced

johnstonf

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I'm not sure of your question... the relay isn't being used at all (as described above), so the selection and time are totally N/A (or am i missing something?).  As i stated, the sensor is the only thing being monitored and used...

/f

 

Very simple programs... one for on, one for off...

 

BRDR-FanOFF - [iD 0058][Parent 0001]
If
        Status  'ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINC-BR-Sensor' is Off
Then
        Set 'DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan' Off
        Set 'DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR' Off
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 
BRDR-FanON - [iD 0059][Parent 0001]
If
        Status  'ZZZ1-DO-NOT-USE / IO-LINCS / IO-LINC-BR-Sensor' is On
Then
        Set 'DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-DR-WindowFan' On
        Set 'DIMMERS+SWITCHES / SW-BedRm-Fan+HTR' On
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

ok, how about "no reason"... what is the significance?

 

There is no reason to have the relay hold closed for 24 seconds?!?! There is no reason you selected option A vs C?!? Normally a relay is held closed / opened for predefined time period to illicit proper operations. For example for a GDO you would select a momentary duration that ensured reliable and consistent operations from the GDO.

 

The reason for a longer duration is to meet a specific need . . .

 

If there is no reason that's like turning your ignition in the start position and leaving it there and expecting nothing bad to happen. Why would you leave a door open for 24 seconds? Is it because you need that amount of time to exit?

 

Lastly, each mode A, B, C are defined in the full users manual please read it . . .

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

That's all great... but....

 

I AM NOT USING THE RELAYS LOL... I AM NOT USING THEM!!!

SO WHO GIVES A RIP?

 

Maybe you have greater wisdom on how this would affect my problem?

 

/f

 

Then why do you have the option selected that the relay follows the sensor? Why then do you have option (A) selected if for no other reason that was the default selection?!?!

 

If you don't understand how something operates how do you expect a positive outcome? Considering the very fact this toy is connected and has direct command and control of your heating system one would expect some care?

 

Please read the forums and the full users manual to understand how each mode will affect and impact the final outcome. It would be a sad day if someone died if in the dead of winter heat was called for and it didn't kick in because there was *No reason* to check, validate, and verify proper operations . . .

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johnstonf Advanced

johnstonf

Posted
  • Author
Posted

respectfully (i'm not trying to insult you, but...)

 

wholly crap, i wish you would learn to read!

 

you're not getting it into your head... but, maybe you won't...

 

i have electronics and computer background, i am capable of understanding.

 

i am not using the relay... ok?  i am not using it... only the SENSOR, THAT'S IT.

 

Maybe re-read the whole thing... you also asked about IF the fans were coming on...

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT!

 

/f

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Teken Advanced

Teken

Posted
Posted

respectfully (i'm not trying to insult you, but...)

 

wholly crap, i wish you would learn to read!

 

you're not getting it into your head... but, maybe you won't...

 

i have electronics and computer background, i am capable of understanding.

 

i am not using the relay... ok?  i am not using it... only the SENSOR, THAT'S IT.

 

Maybe re-read the whole thing... you also asked about IF the fans were coming on...

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT!

 

/f

 

If I didn't read what you wrote how did you think the question came to be? Its called comprehension and I ask you again why do you have options selected when you have no clue what they do?

 

Yet your expecting a positive outcome . . .

 

Considering you stated you have an electronics and computer back ground you would fully understand why I asked. At the current time you have options selected and based on your reply you have no clue how they impact the operations of the device.

 

Again, please read the full users manual and adjust the settings and see if the expected results appear. The Insteon I/O Linc is probably one of the most flexible yet complicated devices Smartlabs has every created. Many of the *expected* behaviors one would believe / should happen do not follow what some would consider basic logic.

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stusviews Advanced

stusviews

Posted
Posted

The I/O Linc is the most difficult Insteon device to set up correctly. That's because it's also the most versatile able to be used in a multitude of situations. Because of this versatility, it's imperative, if you are using it in any way other than the few examples show in the manual, that you fully read and understand how each mode works and how setting options can change that.

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johnstonf Advanced

johnstonf

Posted
  • Author
Posted

OK, I'm done this discussion... you're not helping in the least.

 

Larryllix solved my problem and it is all working, so DONE IS DONE.

(no changes were needed to the IO-Linc itself to get this working).

 

Thanks for your input.

 

/f

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larryllix Advanced

larryllix

Posted
Posted

larryllix

 

If you have the time can you explain the 'fix'.   I've read your posts which explain aspects of ISY processing but I did not see an actual fix.   Others may benefit from how this was solved.   Thanks.

AFAIC I did not suggest a cure, maybe a temporary fix but not a real fix.

 

From the OP I suspect the stat 24vac being connected to the live input of the ioLink, and both being ground referenced, then it may be bothering the ioLink causing it to act suspiciously. The ioLink wouldn't like that most likely.

 

The 3:00 am, or any query, may report silly things and/or cause the problem to rear it's ugly head. The query is not the main problem, and the output not being programmed correctly probably isn't making a difference and may just be the ay it came from the factory.

 

 

I am going to suggest to johnstonf that he see if his stat can run with the 24vac only connected to the Rc and C terminals and the IOLink connected to the Rh and W. If you have an ohmmeter check to see if the Rh and Rc are connected internally while the wires are off.

 

Another suggestion is to factory reset the IOLink and do a restore and see what happens. Then check the options again and do a query while watching the options. IIRC I have seen options that not in synce with the devices. The whole thing wreaks of the "trigger reverse" being on and maybe not showing properly.

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Brian H Advanced

Brian H

Posted
Posted

If I read the original post. The thermostat is strictly connected to the Sensor and Ground terminals of the I/OLinc. Through its RC/RH and W terminals. Using its mechanical temperature controlled contacts to turn the Sensor Input On and Off.

 

I did not see any reference to 24 volts AC but if there is any external voltage getting into the I/OLinc's Sensor Input. It could be damaged.

It has some input protection but probably not able to safely handle 24 volts AC.

 

I also believe the user just disabled the 3:00 AM Query and called it fixed.

 

If the relay output is following the Sensor State it had to be set that way as default in follow sensor input is disabled.

Even if not being used. It still had to have been set that way.

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