How to control a 2 stage whole house fan?

[waffles]

I like to control a 2 stage whole house fan (QuietCool QC ES-4700) via my ISY-Insteon system. The fan has two load lines, 1 for low speed and 1 for high speed.

 

In my search I came across this thread:
http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13628-micro-openclose-module-for-whole-house-fan/
It sounds like jshank wanted to do exactly what I have in mind. I would have posted in the thread, but it has been closed/archived. I was wondering if anyone had found a solution to his problem and could share it with me.

BTW, I called QuiteCool Tech Support for some insights. Unfortunately, they could not offer any HA solution, but advised that the fan motor could not be controlled by a dimmer (which is what I had figured).

 

Thanks!

[paulbates]

I have 2 inline lincs in box, one wired to each hot of the fan.  In hindsight, I would go for an on/off switchlincs as it makes for easier testing at the fan.  I have a Windland templinc thermometer on an iolinc in the attic for low speed. However since reinsulating the attic, I have it set to read when it hits freezing or less and then have the fan run 10 minutes a day low speed to make sure the attic stays dry. 

 

The fan and dampers to the house are controlled by scenes and programs. The scenes turn one switch on and the other off.  Its also controlled by keypadlincs around the house and a remotelinc in the bedroom. One button is on / off, the other it on, and then turn itself back off after 45 mins.

 

Paul

 

[waffles]

Thank you Paul.

 

Using 2 separate switchable insteon devices, in combination with programs/scenes seems like a good straight forward solution to me.

[paulbates]

You're welcome. There is also a program that checks for the status of both of them being on at the same time, which would be a mistake. The program shuts down the high speed and sends an alert. Its a paranoid ALL ON safeguard that's fortunately never run unless being forced tested... (He said, making incantations to the insteon gods)

 

I also would get a closing cover for the switches' electrical box, attics are muy dusty, dirty places.

 

Paul

Edited August 4, 2016 by paulbates

[rccoleman]

I spent some time trying to get a Z-Wave dual relay to work in conjunction with my Insteon On/Off switch, but the relays were only rated to 10 amps and it had a bad effect on fan startup. You also have to ensure that both loads aren't powered at the same time, so you'd want to use a set of programs to change each relay and check the state. I just gave up on it and went back to manual speed switch.

 

If you find a solution, I'd love to hear it. I don't often need to change the speed remotely, but the physical switch just makes my fan feel...incomplete

Edited August 4, 2016 by rccoleman

[paulbates]

I spent some time trying to get a Z-Wave dual relay to work in conjunction with my Insteon On/Off switch, but the relays were only rated to 10 amps and it had a bad effect on fan startup. You also have to ensure that both loads aren't powered at the same time, so you'd want to use a set of programs to change each relay and check the state. I just gave up on it and went back to manual speed switch.

 

If you find a solution, I'd love to hear it. I don't often need to change the speed remotely, but the physical switch just makes my fan feel...incomplete

 

To deal with them both getting turned on: write a program to check the status of both being on, and then decide what to do... turn one or both off, send an alert,etc. That works well in testing for me, it never happened on its own,

 

For the day to day operation, tightly control the fan with a handful of scenes and programs. Scenes that turn one switch on can be set to turn the other off. I have one scene tied to keypadlincs buttons, another to a program that turns the scene on, counts 45 mins and turns back off. The low speed is tied to a temp sensor on an inolinc. But you could repeat the first process for high / low speed keypad linc buttons

 

 

Paul

Paul

[stusviews]

I'd never rely on two separate devices to control loads that cannot/should not be energized at the same time and especially not a program. A program is useless if at any time the ISY or PLM fails or is off-line. An Open/Close Micro Module behaves as a SPDT switch.

[rccoleman]

I think I had the programs set up to ensure that both relays weren't powered at the same time (luckily, they were both off when the Zwave relay first receives power), but the startup load of the fan exceeded the capacity of the relays. In the end, I like my whole house fan too much to put it at risk for an infrequent speed change.

Edited August 4, 2016 by rccoleman

[stusviews]

Only a SPDT device can ensure that both line are not energized concurrently. A program depends on the ISY and/or PLM being functional. A SPDT device does not.

[waffles]

Stu; your argument to use a SPDT makes a lot of sense to me.

From what I understand an Insteon Open/Close Micro Module would not be able to handle the load for such fan, so I believe I would need to enlist the help of relays. While I think I could assemble and wire such contraption by following a build plan, I am clearly lacking the knowledge to design something from scratch that would reliably work. Are there any build plans / threads I could follow along or are there any devices already readily available? I would appreciate any pointers.

 

TIA! 

[waffles]

The electrical ratings of the fan (i.e., amperage at each speed) are according to the specs: "High 551 Watts / Low 64 Watts". It runs on 120V60Hz.

 

 

[stusviews]

The specs on the Micro Module appear adequate. (sorry about deleting my post).

[waffles]

Thanks Stu;

 

I am a bit confused about the various module types.

 

Micro Open/Close  (L1/L2)

2444-222

for loads up to: 8A resistive, 2.5A motor 

=> this would not be enough for my case, as I need at least around 5A in high mode.

 

 

 

 

Micro On/Off  (L1/L1)

2443-222

3600W/ 240VAC Resistive

700W/240VAC Inductive/Capacitive

2000W/240VAC Bulbs/Low Voltage Halogen

 

=> I believe this would be sufficient, but from what I understand it can only control 1 load; but I need 2 (one for high, one for low)

[stusviews]

You may need a relay (or two) which would be powered by the Open/Close Module. The relay(s) should not be HA relays, so the only way to power them is via the Micro Module which is incapable of powering both at the same time.

[waffles]

One relay for the high power line should do the trick. Low power could be run straight from the module (only needs 0.5A). I only would need to make sure it is wired up correctly....

 

Which still brings me back to my earlier comment regarding fabricating such contraption. Any change you could provide a link to a suitable relay and some brief description on how to wire it in?

[mwester]

As for the relay, the easiest way to handle that is to use a pre-packaged device.  I prefer the Functional Devices "RIB" line -- you find any number of these, in various voltages and current ratings and configurations on eBay for very little $.  Here's a very common one -- the data sheet for it will tell you what size motor it can handle, very specifically.  You'll notice from that data sheet that there are different current ratings for different purposes -- that's because devices behave differently particularly during startup.  A motor is usually far harder on a small relay than a resistive load, for example -- the startup surge current can arc a lot, resulting in a lot more wear (pitting) on the contacts, eventually resulting in the contact melting open, or welding shut.  I would recommend that you use a relay on BOTH low and high current sides -- the Insteon device is really, really small and it would be shame to have to toss out such an expensive device if it fails under load.

 

Dirt-common low-current (and low-cost) RIB: http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-automation/display.php?model=RIBU1C

 

I'm using one of the above relay's bigger brothers, controlled by an Insteon appliancelinc to control a 3/4 HP pump.

 

As for wiring that - help us out a bit, what is your level of comfort with wiring, conduit, junction boxes, etc?  What level of detail are you asking for folks to provide?

[stusviews]

WRONG!!! You'll need a relay with a 110/120VAC coil with contacts rated for 5 amps or more (rated for a motor). View only the top left diagram. One side of the coil connects to neutral, the other side connects to one load of the Micro Open/Close Module. Because it's AC which is line and which is neutral doesn't matter, but the relay may be labelled. Line connects to A and load connects to B. WRONG!!!

 

See post #22

Edited August 6, 2016 by stusviews

[stusviews]

WRONG!!!  This may be a little clearer:

WRONG!!!

 

See post #22

Edited August 6, 2016 by stusviews

[waffles]

Thanks much, guys, this is very helpful. Please keep it coming and bear with me.

 

As to mwester's question about my comfort level. I am very comfortable wiring it all together and/or putting it all in boxes. Where I would need help with is in a.) identifying the components and b.) how to connect them, e.g. "connect red wire of module with blue wire of relay"
(As a data point, I have successfully replaced the caps on my PLM already twice, following very closely the instructions in a thread I found here or in the insteon forum. I have also added a sub panel and additional circuits in my home all by myself - the home still stands.)

 

 

So

 

a.) is accomplished, I believe: I need a Open/Close Module and (2) RIBU1C

 

b.): here are the wiring diagrams for Open/Close Module and for  the RIBU1C, Which wires do I need to connect for High power, respectively for Low power?  (yep, I know it's embarrassing that it's that basic of a question...)

 

[stusviews]

WRONG!!! One load from the Open/Close Module connects to the fan low speed.

 

The other load from the Open/Close Module connects to the Wht/Blk wire of the RIBU1C (coil) and to the Yel Comm of the RIBU1C (relay).

 

Connect neutral to Wht/Yel Comm of the RIBU1C (coil).

 

Connect Org N/O of the RIBU1C (relay) to the fan high speed.

 

Cap separately the unused RIBU1C wires.

 

WRONG!!!

 

See post #22

Edited August 6, 2016 by stusviews

[waffles]

Thanks Stu.

 

Order for module and relays on Amazon placed! I should get them on Sunday. Thanks, Prime membership

 

Stu, I will try to convert your instructions into a sketch and upload it here for proofreading. It may take me a day or so.

[stusviews]

Corrected

[waffles]

Excellent, Stu!

I think I got it.

Can't wait to receive the parts to put everything together.

[waffles]

So I tried to piece it all together and would appreciate a quick sanity check, please.

[stusviews]

Looks fine.