Door sensor and leak detector: false alarms

[Jason Miller]

I was directed here from Smarthome .. 

 

Hello! Just installed a new setup at our vacation condo. I have an ISY994i, a door sensor (http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2843-222-wireless-open-close-sensor.html) on the front door and sliding glass door. In addition, I also have a leak sensor under the sink (http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2852-222-water-leak-sensor.html).

So, all devices are currently battery powered, back to the ISY. I plan to install some switches, etc., in the future as I slowly build the system up like I have at my house.

Long story short, I've had 3 alerts the front door was opened. On each instance, it wasn't (I have a camera). This morning, I got an alert a leak was detected. No leak present.

Any thoughts? Could it be I don't have enough devices for it to report back to the ISY (signal strength)? Any ideas?

[paulbates]

Hi

 

I think its something besides communications... if that were the case, the symptom would be not getting alerts when you expected to get them

 

Let's start with how the alerts are generated, are they from a program? If so, can you list the program? You do that by right-clicking on the program name on the list on the left and pick "copy to clipboard" from the drop down. Paste that here.

 

If its not from a program, how are you getting the alerts?

 

Also its possible that its how the sensor is installed, are you able to provide pictures of the area the sensor is in when the door is closed?

 

Paul

[larryllix]

Agree with Paul.

Weak communications don't generate false signals into ISY. Insteon is secure, that way.

 

If your condo is in Florida, I could volunteer to visit the site and work out some of the bugs over the winter.

[Ajax]

Mine did a similar thing the first week I installed them. Installed 6 leak sensors and wrote a program that if Wet=On to txt me, which it did of course when I was 2 hours away and then after another hour the one below that one in the basement went off so I sure thought I had a leak. Had a friend go look at it was fine... But with the new ones not sure how you are supposed to reset them when you are away like the OP?

[Teken]

http://forum.smarthome.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=18259#97376

[Techman]

Mine did a similar thing the first week I installed them. Installed 6 leak sensors and wrote a program that if Wet=On to txt me, which it did of course when I was 2 hours away and then after another hour the one below that one in the basement went off so I sure thought I had a leak. Had a friend go look at it was fine... But with the new ones not sure how you are supposed to reset them when you are away like the OP?

 

The newer leak sensors, once they've detected water, need to be manually reset, by pushing the set button,

[larryllix]

I had one go off last night!

 

I heard the local BuzzLinc go and an email arrived at my computer email. Opened the email and misread the whereabouts.

 

Ran into the Utility room and not a drop of water to be found.

Knowing the code "AAAA" on my KPL, I pushed in the combination to turn my well pump back on.

Then I had that sinking feeling, the wrong unit was reported in the email, ran to the kitchen were the dishwasher was pouring water onto the floor.

 

Shut off the dishwasher and wife mopped the floor. Checked the fill float switch in the dishwasher and it seemed freely operating. hmmmm....  turned it back on and saw no further problems. Later  research... Love plumbing stuff. NOT!

 

 

Leak Detector?

Opened it up and shook any loose water out. Banged it a few times against a towel to get more drops out.

Pressed the button...nothing.

Boot admin console, LD doesn't send anything at all, and no LED flash.

Battery out and back a few times, green LED flashes and goes dead, forever. Dang!

Hairdryer to dry the circuits fully, and try again.... dead!

 

I should have ordered another LD when I placed my order with SH for the sale. Placed the leak detector aside.

 

30 minutes later a tap on the button and the LD comes to life!  Restore it from ISY, run some tests and put it back under the dishwasher.

 

 

All is good in my ISY world, again.

HA blues are nowhere to be found.

[stusviews]

How/why did the wrong unit get reported?

[Jason Miller]

Hi

 

I think its something besides communications... if that were the case, the symptom would be not getting alerts when you expected to get them

 

Let's start with how the alerts are generated, are they from a program? If so, can you list the program? You do that by right-clicking on the program name on the list on the left and pick "copy to clipboard" from the drop down. Paste that here.

 

If its not from a program, how are you getting the alerts?

 

Also its possible that its how the sensor is installed, are you able to provide pictures of the area the sensor is in when the door is closed?

 

Paul

 

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I will provide what I can, but a pic isn't possible as I am not at the property. The program for the front door is as follows:

 

  Condo Front Door M-F Copy - [iD 0006][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Front Door Condo-Opened' is On

    And On Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri

        From    12:00:00AM

        To      11:59:59PM (same day)

 

Then

        Send Notification to 'Email' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

        Send Notification to 'Text' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Related to the install, the leak sensor was just a quick placement, nothing extreme. The door sensor, I a ton and put it within the range instructions said.

Agree with Paul.

Weak communications don't generate false signals into ISY. Insteon is secure, that way.

 

If your condo is in Florida, I could volunteer to visit the site and work out some of the bugs over the winter.

 

Hah! No, it's on the eastern shore of MD. I will be at the place this weekend and will continue to trouble shoot.

[larryllix]

How/why did the wrong unit get reported?

I have a generic notification that reports the four units and the first one on the list was a far as I read which was the Utility Room:0 = no wet.

 

Report was OK, just my reading was too impatient and that room was hit once before. duh!

[larryllix]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I will provide what I can, but a pic isn't possible as I am not at the property. The program for the front door is as follows:

 

  Condo Front Door M-F Copy - [iD 0006][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Front Door Condo-Opened' is On

    And On Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri

        From    12:00:00AM

        To      11:59:59PM (same day)

 

Then

        Send Notification to 'Email' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

        Send Notification to 'Text' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Related to the install, the leak sensor was just a quick placement, nothing extreme. The door sensor, I a ton and put it within the range instructions said.

 

Hah! No, it's on the eastern shore of MD. I will be at the place this weekend and will continue to trouble shoot.

Door sensors are often installed badly at the top of the door in security systems. A string wind or somebody banging the door, bending it, can activate the zone.

 

Check your door to see if it is bent/warped and/or if pressure on the door at the sensor location can activate the signal when you are there. 

 

B&E specialists can know this too and cause false alarms until you deactivate the thing out of frustration. OTOH maybe I watch too much TV.

 

 

MD? No thanks. You are north of me. I am  in Canada!  I want south.

[Techman]

Regarding the open/close sensors, I've found that it's a good idea to put a few seconds delay in your programs to allow for false/intermittent contact open/close.

[paulbates]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I will provide what I can, but a pic isn't possible as I am not at the property. The program for the front door is as follows:

 

  Condo Front Door M-F Copy - [iD 0006][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Status  'Front Door Condo-Opened' is On

    And On Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri

        From    12:00:00AM

        To      11:59:59PM (same day)

 

Then

        Send Notification to 'Email' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

        Send Notification to 'Text' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

 

I would make the following program changes

• change it from 'If Status' to 'If Control'.. you want to catch it just when it triggers.

If

        Control  'Front Door Condo-Opened' is On

   ......

 

Give that a try

 

Paul

[mwester]

I had one go off last night!

 

I heard the local BuzzLinc go and an email arrived at my computer email. Opened the email and misread the whereabouts.

 

Ran into the Utility room and not a drop of water to be found.

Knowing the code "AAAA" on my KPL, I pushed in the combination to turn my well pump back on.

Then I had that sinking feeling, the wrong unit was reported in the email, ran to the kitchen were the dishwasher was pouring water onto the floor.

 

Shut off the dishwasher and wife mopped the floor. Checked the fill float switch in the dishwasher and it seemed freely operating. hmmmm....  turned it back on and saw no further problems. Later  research... Love plumbing stuff. NOT!

 

 

Leak Detector?

Opened it up and shook any loose water out. Banged it a few times against a towel to get more drops out.

Pressed the button...nothing.

Boot admin console, LD doesn't send anything at all, and no LED flash.

Battery out and back a few times, green LED flashes and goes dead, forever. Dang!

Hairdryer to dry the circuits fully, and try again.... dead!

 

I should have ordered another LD when I placed my order with SH for the sale. Placed the leak detector aside.

 

30 minutes later a tap on the button and the LD comes to life!  Restore it from ISY, run some tests and put it back under the dishwasher.

 

 

All is good in my ISY world, again.

HA blues are nowhere to be found.

 

 

  Love this story.  It reminds me of the old commercials -- was it Magnavox?  Anyway, they advertised their latest TV set breakthrough - "the works in a drawer".  The idea was that since TVs at that time were huge heavy hunks of furniture, it was a sales feature to have the TV designed so that the service guy could pull out the entire electronics from the front for service.

 

Why this sticks in my mind is because while American companies were busy figuring out ways to more effectively deal with failure, the Japanese were busy designing more reliable TV sets.  Who won that battle?

 

Larry, methinks that you might like to perhaps cut back on a few Insteon purchases, and buy a new dishwasher instead!  

[Jason Miller]

Door sensors are often installed badly at the top of the door in security systems. A string wind or somebody banging the door, bending it, can activate the zone.

 

Check your door to see if it is bent/warped and/or if pressure on the door at the sensor location can activate the signal when you are there. 

 

B&E specialists can know this too and cause false alarms until you deactivate the thing out of frustration. OTOH maybe I watch too much TV.

 

 

MD? No thanks. You are north of me. I am  in Canada!  I want south.

 

The door gets a lot of wind pressure. It's in a hallway, with strong winds blowing off the coast. Sometimes you have to pull it towards you while locking. 

 

 

I would make the following program changes

• change it from 'If Status' to 'If Control'.. you want to catch it just when it triggers.

If

        Control  'Front Door Condo-Opened' is On

   ......

 

Give that a try

 

Paul

 

I changed this setting. What is the difference of the two, if I may ask?

 

 

Regarding the open/close sensors, I've found that it's a good idea to put a few seconds delay in your programs to allow for false/intermittent contact open/close.

 

I added this.

 

So .. the new programming looks like:

 

Condo Front Door M-F - [iD 0005][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Control 'Front Door Condo-Opened' is switched On

    And On Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri

        From    12:00:00AM

        To      11:59:59PM (same day)

 

Then

        Wait  3 seconds

        Send Notification to 'Email' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

        Send Notification to 'Text' content 'Condo Front Door Opened'

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[paulbates]

'Control' runs the program when the sensor is controlled- the door opens and switches state. When that happens, the program runs.   That's what you're looking to do.

 

Give that version of the program a try and monitor what happens.

 

Paul

[larryllix]

  Love this story.  It reminds me of the old commercials -- was it Magnavox?  Anyway, they advertised their latest TV set breakthrough - "the works in a drawer".  The idea was that since TVs at that time were huge heavy hunks of furniture, it was a sales feature to have the TV designed so that the service guy could pull out the entire electronics from the front for service.

 

Why this sticks in my mind is because while American companies were busy figuring out ways to more effectively deal with failure, the Japanese were busy designing more reliable TV sets.  Who won that battle?

 

Larry, methinks that you might like to perhaps cut back on a few Insteon purchases, and buy a new dishwasher instead!  

Nahhh! When we built a new house 8 years ago we looked for a new dishwasher for months. Then we bought another unit and swapped it in the old house, brought the decent Maytag model to the new house and it still outperforms all the new junk.

 

The digital display tells us the last cycle run, how many remaining minutes on the cycles and other information the new units just don't have. Plus the Maytag racking layout is second to none. That never changed in the new models but limited us to brand selection.

[G W]

I bought a Bosch about 12 years ago and it's great. It still looks and works like it's new.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[larryllix]

I bought a Bosch about 12 years ago and it's great. It still looks and works like it's new.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

We looked hard at Bosch but when they said "European" I knew it probably wouldn't be a standard N.American cabinet drop-in. IIRC it was the only appliance that wasn't made by Whirlpool, the junk maker.

 

Plus the stainless steel tub was being promoted as quiet (with a tonne of insulation) and after tossing that stuff aside years ago as noisy and poor quality material, I kept my ABS tub, more quiet without insulation, model.

 

The extra low profile was being promoted and I knew I bent over far enough already that this was a user functional  convenience error being promoted also.

 

The macerator was a hard feature to replace. Friend's always scrape and rinse their dishes first. Toothpicks are down the drain with no filters.

 

I was very turned off by all the salepeople's lies, and distrusted the whole thing after that.

 

I do have a fan cage ticking away and need to replace that some year, but this thing was the old Maytag style that just lasts for time based on centuries.

[G W]

 

 

We looked hard at Bosch but when they said "European" I knew it probably wouldn't be a standard N.American cabinet drop-in. IIRC it was the only appliance that wasn't made by Whirlpool, the junk maker.

 

Plus the stainless steel tub was being promoted as quiet (with a tonne of insulation) and after tossing that stuff aside years ago as noisy and poor quality material, I kept my ABS tub, more quiet without insulation, model.

 

The extra low profile was being promoted and I knew I bent over far enough already that this was a user functional convenience error being promoted also.

 

I was very turned off by all the salepeople's lies, and distrusted the whole thing after that.

 

I do have a fan cage ticking away and need to replace that some year, but this thing was the old Maytag style that just lasts for time based on centuries.

It is a perfect drop-in and its so darn quiet I never hear it running even when I'm 10 feet from it. It stays clean and even smells clean after all these years. This is one sweet appliance.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Jason Miller]

Ok .. I spent time at the condo this weekend and wanted to report back. First, the leak detector. Prior to leaving, I was getting something under my sink at my main house. As it turns out, a VERY small leak developed from the hose that you pull out the faucet. So, when you turn faucet on, the leak would follow the hose and drip below, hitting that sensor. Given this seemed to happen right when I installed the other leak detector at the condo, I didn't pay enough attention to the email I setup and realize it was my HOUSE, not condo. So, no false alarms, just didn't pay enough attention. I've since changed my emails to be very unique and clear.

 

On the door sensor .. install I used the 3M tape .. I wanted to avoid any holes on trim JUST in case my wife didn't like how they looked. I keep AC high, so condo at ocean gets a bit humid. Long and short, I suspect it slowly started to fall off and get further away. Wind would push door enough to trigger. Eventually, it fell all the way off and stayed open when I was accessing the ISY. So .. I've since screwed it in and haven't noticed any issues and hope it stays that way

[Teken]

Glad you confirmed it was a gap distance issue as I suggested.

 

Rock On . . .

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[Jason Miller]

Well, I guess you could say that .. failing tape certainly caused a gap issue  

[G W]

7 feet is a pretty big gap.

 

Short and to the point.

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[Teken]

Nobody defined how big of a gap!

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.