Program ? Communication failures

[grossmd]

I have a large system with plenty of duel band switches and range extenders. Everything has worked fine until a week or two ago when a lot of my programs started to work sporadically. I have also noticed that during scheduled system queries random devices sometimes are reported as unreachable but immediately respond to manual query. I have changed nothing in the house. In response to problem I added some range extenders and filters but no luck. Again, it seems to be more of a problem with programs. Any suggestions would be much welcomed. Thanks

[Techman]

I have a large system with plenty of duel band switches and range extenders. Everything has worked fine until a week or two ago when a lot of my programs started to work sporadically. I have also noticed that during scheduled system queries random devices sometimes are reported as unreachable but immediately respond to manual query. I have changed nothing in the house. In response to problem I added some range extenders and filters but no luck. Again, it seems to be more of a problem with programs. Any suggestions would be much welcomed. Thanks

 

Your PLM could be failing, especially if it's more than 2 years old.

Try doing a link count on the PLM, if the number is low then you might have a failing PLM that's losing its links.

 

What's the date code on the PLM, it will be a 4 digit number.

[hisenberg]

I am having a similar problem.  Several devices aren't responding to query or a I get communication errors.  I thought it was my PLM and I replaced it.  But I am still experiencing the same problems.  

[Brian H]

I am having a similar problem.  Several devices aren't responding to query or a I get communication errors.  I thought it was my PLM and I replaced it.  But I am still experiencing the same problems.  

Any new electronic devices or moved electronic devices in the house? That could be making power line noise or absorbing power line signals?

Could also be an existing power line device starting to go bad and effecting the power line signals.

The PLM is it on a Surge Suppressor or on the same power circuit as the computing equipment?

Have you verified that Dual Band devices are bridging the two incoming power lines from the street? Using the Beacon or 4 tap built in tests?

Though related to X10 some of the troubleshooting tips in these tutorials. Can also be used for Insteon power line troubleshooting.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

[haggis444]

I am in the same boat, replaced my PLM, replaced some of the Insteon devices that seemed problematic.

 

For the most part my programs work, but almost everytime I open the admin console I get "Cannot communicate with..." and everyone of my devices have the dreaded "!" next to them. But when I query them they come back fine.  

 

I just upgraded to 4.5.4 to see if maybe the 4.5.1 was problematic.  

 

I am not sure how to even start troubleshooting.  But this has been going on for maybe 4-6 weeks now. 

[fman47]

I have the same problems with my Zwave devices on the door locks. I get the "cannot communicate.... " and then I flip the door lock manually and everything  works

[stusviews]

Upgrading versions will rarely, if ever, solve communication problems. It's actually best to solve those problems before upgrading. Troubleshooting communication problems is tedious. A start is to disconnect/unplug everything electronic. Turning such devices off is inadequate. They must be unplugged and/or disconnected. If that helps, then reconnect and plug in devices one at a time until the problem recurs. That specific device requires a filter.

 

BTW, LED and CFL bulbs can also cause communication difficulties.

 

Edit: Z-Wave communication problems can nearly always be solved with an Aeon Gen 5 Siren which also happens to be a fantastic Z-Wave repeater.

[hisenberg]

Any new electronic devices or moved electronic devices in the house? That could be making power line noise or absorbing power line signals?

Could also be an existing power line device starting to go bad and effecting the power line signals.

The PLM is it on a Surge Suppressor or on the same power circuit as the computing equipment?

Have you verified that Dual Band devices are bridging the two incoming power lines from the street? Using the Beacon or 4 tap built in tests?

Though related to X10 some of the troubleshooting tips in these tutorials. Can also be used for Insteon power line troubleshooting.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

A few things of note:

1.  About a month ago, an electrician moved some circuit breakers around in one sub-panel (due to a replacement of the sub-panel).

2.  Sometime in the last month, the system started getting flakey and gradually got worse.

3.  I noticed that two of my three access points went bad.

 

So far, I have done the following:

1.  Replaced the PLM (and yes, I followed the instruction very carefully on this).

2.  Purchased three range extenders and made sure that at least one of them was on a different phase (verified with the 4-tap + blinking green lights)

3.  Tried restoring devices

 

So some devices are responding while other devices are not responding.  While it is much better than it was, I'm still seeing several devices not responding.  Many of these devices are on the same gang (same circuit too of course).  The range extender is within a few feet of these devices which are also dual band devices.

I'm perplexed as to what to do/try next.

[stusviews]

It's highly unusual for an Access Point to fail. How did you determine that they failed?

[hisenberg]

It's highly unusual for an Access Point to fail. How did you determine that they failed?

The LED was no longer lit up.  Only one of three Access Points (which I purchased 4 years ago) had a green led, the other had nothing.  I tried moving them around and only the devices near the one with lit LED had any kind of response.

[Brian H]

It's highly unusual for an Access Point to fail. How did you determine that they failed?

If it was any hardware revision 2 Access Point.

It was built on the same base 2413 PLM board and shares the same power supply failure issues.

I repaired two of mine. Both had the LED out and the unregulated  twelve volts supply reading about six volts.

[haggis444]

Upgrading versions will rarely, if ever, solve communication problems. It's actually best to solve those problems before upgrading. Troubleshooting communication problems is tedious. A start is to disconnect/unplug everything electronic. Turning such devices off is inadequate. They must be unplugged and/or disconnected. If that helps, then reconnect and plug in devices one at a time until the problem recurs. That specific device requires a filter.

 

Thanks, I am a software developer by trade.  

 

Just to be clear, I am not having communications problems, when I log into the ISY in the morning it says it cannot communicate with EVERY device in my system. I query them and they come back.  How do I troubleshoot that? I can't recreate the issue. 

[Techman]

Thanks, I am a software developer by trade.  

 

Just to be clear, I am not having communications problems, when I log into the ISY in the morning it says it cannot communicate with EVERY device in my system. I query them and they come back.  How do I troubleshoot that? I can't recreate the issue. 

 

It sounds like you might have a PLM issue. Did you buy your replacement PLM from Smarhome or from a 3rd party vendor?  What's the 4 digit datecode on the PLM?

[haggis444]

Thanks. It's a v9E on the software, on the sticker it says v22 then 1622.  

 

When I do a link count from the PLM it says 87.

 

I did not see ANY errors when I ran the admin console this afternoon, the errors seem to pop up in the morning. That is why it is hard to troubleshoot, everything looks perfect right now.  

[Techman]

Thanks. It's a v9E on the software, on the sticker it says v22 then 1622.  

 

When I do a link count from the PLM it says 87.

 

I did not see ANY errors when I ran the admin console this afternoon, the errors seem to pop up in the morning. That is why it is hard to troubleshoot, everything looks perfect right now.  

 

The date on the PLM is the 22nd week of 2016, so it's a current release.

 

The link count sounds low, there might be missing links. About how many devices are linked to the ISY?

 

You might want to try a restore PLM

[haggis444]

I have 21 discrete devices active (switches, on/off blocks, dimmers). then I have a couple of sensors that I think have three states (addresses each). 

 

I probably have another 10-15 in a box (Christmas lights control). That are disabled in the ISY. i don't know if those count in the links or not. I am guessing no.

 

One interesting thing, is I have 2 open/close sensors, they have had a brownish 1011 next to them since I replaced the PLM. I noticed when I went to restore they should have been put into pairing (don't remember the exact term) before restoring the PLM.  I did not do that when I replaced the PLM but did it this time.  After the restore I have gold arrows next to them. Any chance this was causing the issue?

 

 

After the restore I have 84 links????

 

One other thing I forgot to say, if I leave the admin console up overnight, in the morning I have all of the popups "Unable to communicate..."  So it doesn't just happen when starting it in the morning. May not be interesting but wanted to point it out.  

 

 

 

Thanks for sticking with this Techman. 

[stusviews]

One other thing I forgot to say, if I leave the admin console up overnight, in the morning I have all of the popups "Unable to communicate..."  So it doesn't just happen when starting it in the morning. May not be interesting but wanted to point it out.

 

 

I, too, find the ISY unresponsive if I leave the Admin Console open. I don't recall the release when that difficulty started. but formerly I never ever closed the Admin Console.

 

BTW, did you change the theme color?

[Brian H]

You didn't use the Delete Modem choice at anytime during the replacing of the PLM?

[haggis444]

I really don't remember. Why?

[stusviews]

Delete modem wipes everything out. You need to start from scratch after issuing that command.

[Techman]

 

I have 21 discrete devices active (switches, on/off blocks, dimmers). then I have a couple of sensors that I think have three states (addresses each). 

 

I probably have another 10-15 in a box (Christmas lights control). That are disabled in the ISY. i don't know if those count in the links or not. I am guessing no.

 

One interesting thing, is I have 2 open/close sensors, they have had a brownish 1011 next to them since I replaced the PLM. I noticed when I went to restore they should have been put into pairing (don't remember the exact term) before restoring the PLM.  I did not do that when I replaced the PLM but did it this time.  After the restore I have gold arrows next to them. Any chance this was causing the issue?

 

 

After the restore I have 84 links????

 

One other thing I forgot to say, if I leave the admin console up overnight, in the morning I have all of the popups "Unable to communicate..."  So it doesn't just happen when starting it in the morning. May not be interesting but wanted to point it out.  

 

 

 

Thanks for sticking with this Techman. 

 

 

The links from disabled devices remain intact and show up in the PLM, the ISY just ignores the device when it's disabled.

 

When you link or restore a battery operated device you can only have one battery operated device in the linking mode at any one time.  If you put more than onel of them in the linking mode at the same time then your links will be incorrect. 

 

A 1011 next to a device means that the links need to be written. To correct his put the device into the linking mode then click write updates to device.

 

The Admin console was not designed to be on all the time. It's best to shut it off when you're not using it.

[haggis444]

Ok, so found the problem, but not the answer...

 

Timing is everything, I was on the admin console when my "sunset" program kicked in. All went to hell. I found that when a 2477S switch was on all of my problems manifested, off, they went away. This was one of my original Insteon devices. It has (2) outdoor sconces on the switch, nothing else, each has (2) LED bulbs in them. I remembered that one of the bulbs went bad not too long ago and I replaced it with a different brand LED.  Now, we had major remodeling going on ton of new lights, new bulbs, during that time so this is the first chance I have had to troubleshoot.  Here is where it gets weird, here are my troubleshooting steps:

 

1. Remove "new" bulb (6W dimmable), three existing bulbs (6W each NON dimmable) still in<--OK
2. Replace bulb with a different bulb (6W dimmable) but same model as "new"<--ISSUES
3. Replace bulb with a different bulb (6W dimmable) that was pulled from a working spot in my house before remodel<--ISSUES
   • Now I am fairly certain these bulbs were not on an Insteon switch but does that matter? Wouldn't they cause noise on a normal switch?
4. Replace bulb with a model of a bulb (4W--not sure dimmable or not but I think dimmable) that I am using everywhere on other Insteon switches<--OK

We just had a lightning storm hit and it is pouring so I won't be able to troubleshoot anymore.  I can do some swapping maybe Friday to see if I can get the problem to follow a certain bulb, etc.  I guess LEDs can cause issues, I was only aware of CFLs? And dumb me I assumed the noise was there regardless of their power state, I guess I know better now.

 

Questions for you experts:

1. When a bulb causes noise, is it typical that its the model and all models of the same bulb will cause an issue, or is it usually just one bad bulb in a bunch that causes an issue?
2. Are LED noise is common as all of the CFL stuff I have read about? Just curious on this one?
3. Is there any chance the switch could be bad/flaky, again it is maybe 4-5 years old now and the bulb brand/load/etc. just sets it over the edge? 

Thanks again for everyones input, I will report back once I have time and can go outside safely.    

 

I will report back when I have a chance to work on this again.

[stusviews]

1. Both results are possible.

2. LED noise is less common than that from a CFL, but less common doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

3. The easiest way to determine if the switch is causing the problem is to use an incandescent bulb.

[mwester]

LED bulbs have the same noise-generating power-supplies that are used in computers and other devices one usually puts on a FilterLinc -- but of course you can't put the bulb on a filter!

 

My experience has been that when companies first introduced a given LED model, they tended to be good -- low noise, good performance.  As time went on, they "tweaked" the design, probably to drive down costs -- and that's when problem begin.  For example, my early Cree bulbs are all good.  I have a bunch of later ones that are banished to the out-buildings because they are so noisy!  I have a lot of the early, early LED bulbs from Feit (a manufacturer renowned for "cheap" low-quality electrical stuff) -- they were pricey at the time compared to today's selling price, and they continue to work.

 

I had an LED bulb failure just as you describe - a 2477s driving a small outdoor LED would cause everything in the house to go "deaf" from the noise.  The bulb worked fine otherwise.  I had a difficult time finding another 25w-equivalent LED bulb that was any better, though -- I ended up taking one of those early LEDs from Feit, and used an adaptor to make the base fit the outdoor light, just so I could get things working again.

 

My conclusion: LED lighting is simply incompatible with Insteon.  It's going to get harder and harder to find noise-free LED bulbs as time goes on, because nobody except us here care about a couple of volts of electrical noise on a 120v line, and it costs a few extra pennies to fix that in each bulb.  And since the RF capabilities of the Insteon devices don't work for some reason when the device is rendered deaf on the power line due to noise, the Insteon devices just won't work reliably.  The days of a pure sine wave on your power lines are long gone, and the Insteon devices are all going the way of the transformer-based PSU.

 

 

Start moving toward z-wave.

[stusviews]

Nearly every bulb in our home is LED with a smattering of CFLs and maybe less than half a dozen incandescent bulbs. Virtually every light is controlled by Insteon dimmers, only the backyard uses On/Off switches. Power continues to be supplied as a pure sine wave, at least in the USA. That doesn't mean that there's not line noise, but that doesn't affect the shape of the wave. Insteon depends on that.