An Open Letter to SmartHome and UD

[ResIpsa]

Let me preface this by saying that I love Insteon products and my ISY 99i/IR-PRO. They have made our lives easier, while also allowing us to be more energy efficient. In addition, the support at UD has always been top notch.

 

That being said, I am absolutely at my wit's end with the current communication issues between Insteon products. People have been complaining for months now that there are reliability issues with SwitchLincs, LampLincs, and ApplianceLincs. And while the good follks at UD have suggested in threads that SmartHome is well aware of the problem, there has not been so much as a whimper from SmartHome to its customers about the issue. SmartHome happily collected $45 from me for each SwitchLinc, and $35 for each LampLinc and ApplianceLinc, but has not had the decency to contact me and tell me that it's aware of a firmware problem with its devices, and that it is working on a fix.

 

Indeed, when I called SmartHome's support recently to RMA some of my problem LampLincs that had suddenly stopped responding consistently, I was told that the source of the problem was either in my environment or based in the ISY. This represented the third time in as many months that SmartHome has immediately pointed the finger at another party when I have called for help with a problem. (The previous two times involved shipping problems with orders: Both times I was told that my order had not made it through to me because I had entered an incomplete shipping address on the order, even though the confirmation e-mail for the order reported the correct shipping address. It was only after much gnashing of teeth that SmartHome did a little leg work and discovered that they had a bug in their shipping software.)

 

And while I appreciate all the work UD does to keep its users up and running, it has now been nearly six weeks since 2.6.13 was released and possibly started many of the communication issues. Now I understand that 2.6.13 may have been a necessity so that ISY can communicate with both i1 and i2 devices, but the constant "we're working on a fix and it will be available shortly" posts are getting a little frustrating. I feel that I am somewhat culpable here, because I jumped into a beta version feet first. But the fact is that many current devices are not at all supported in the last "official" release, and so what choice did I have? And the idea that I should be pulling out numerous "problem" devices and returning them to SmartHome for analysis is somewhat laughable. Taking even a single light out of service to RMA its Insteon device is frustrating. Multiply that by 10 or 20, and it's almost enough to make one consider another technology.

 

To be quite honest, I am tired of apologizing to my wife and our guests for mysterious "firmware" issues when lights do not turn on or off as expected. If the lights don't "just work," then people become suspicious of the technology and wonder if the lights will turn on or off when they flip the switches in my home. I don't think that's acceptable. Do you?

 

I apologize for the rant, but I felt it was time for someone to express their true level of frustration with these issue. I, for one, am looking forward to reliable Insteon products, a stable 2.7 release, and the end of threads with names like "devices don't respond consistently." Thanks for reading.

[jhimmel]

I understand your frustration. Mine is mounting as well.

 

Imagine my dismay when I RMA'd a box full of switches for various failures, only to be replaced by another box full of switches that seem to have communication issues with group commands. I was perplexed as I replaced switches that were years old and had paddle problems, but perfect group response, with brand new latest off the assembly line switches that worked far WORSE than my old ones. All of a sudden, switches that responded perfectly for YEARS to a Keypadlinc button press, were working intermittently with the new switches - and with no apparent rhyme or reason to the problem.

 

At what point does the "early adopter" rule no longer apply? My first switches were purchased in December of 2005. That was early adopter risk. My latest shipment arrived in December of '08 - three years later and they STILL don't have it ironed out? Really makes you wonder if they are capable of EVER getting it right.

 

Now, I have some of the new switches installed, and I still have 5 or 6 "spare" switches from the new batch sitting in a box, and I really don't know what to do about this. I feel like there is an excellent chance that I am about to get screwed on this one.

 

This is a very bad situation, and one that we have been put into with Insteon far too many times. Yes, others join in your frustration.

 

Your post prompted me to respond, but I have been sitting here patiently waiting to see what happens from UDI and Smarthome with this issue - and hoping for a miracle - one that does not involve me having to go through this mess over the phone with Smarthome -again-.

 

Jim H.

[Brian H]

I think UDI is doing their best to fix the problems with Smarthome.

I know they have sent some of my information to Smarthome to evaluate.

 

I place most of the problems on Smarthome and their poor products and attitude. I was one of the original Insteon users. AppliancLincs that smoked and all. Also had a few of the SocketLinc modules that didn't even work like the sales literature said. That was the only module I have seen that forgot what it was set to before a power interruption and you got FULL ON! So they changed the sales page and didn't fix the problem. Now it is on a unlinked page on their site and if you do find it. It says Back Ordered for unknown time. Gee isn't that more like discontinued?

 

I have also had shipping problems. One of my orders lost my discount coupon. Customer Service had to manually redo it and it came out $0.01 off. I wounder how much it cost Smarthome to charge me $0.01 on my charge card?

 

If it was not for my ISY99i. I would most likely be using a different protocol for my Automation Needs.

[gregoryx]

... I'm getting nervous, too... thinking things looked SO much better with the SWL paddle issue resolved and ISY fixing the group / link / status mess directly and in Elk and Main Lobby, I just replaced a few dozen switches. If they weren't free (mostly - but that's another SH irritation story), I'd be on a different system right now.

 

I'll do these one more time... but I don't think I'll do them two more times unless someone else does or pays for the wiring work.

 

And the only reason my patience extends this far is that I can always kill all the links at this point (I think) and I have switches that work when you touch them again... which is an improvement over where the first two generations of these had deteriorated to... sigh.

 

 

Enough being sad for me... things will be what they will be.

 

UD folks, thank you for the great attitude you take: I'm continually impressed by the posts that start with "that must be so frustrating to have to deal with..." and the like; then move to apologetic and then helpful - and fall back to apologetic if the frustration is not adequately vented yet. If the SH folks treated us all that way, it would change the impact of these problems.

 

UD folks, thank you for making it feel like we have someone "on our side" WRT these issues.

 

Here's hoping that the resolutions are in the works!

[ResIpsa]

I would just like to reiterate that I think UD is the best thing about Insteon at this point. Without the reliability of ISY, I doubt I could still be counted among Insteon's fans (or customers). Thanks again to everyone at UD for working so tirelessly to keep the customers happy and up to date on developments.

 

And a special thanks to those of you have responded to this thread thus far. My goal was not to start a flame war, and you obviously picked up on that. Thanks for keeping things honest and respectfully. Frustration does not need to equal disrespect.

[sloop]

I would just like to reiterate that I think UD is the best thing about Insteon at this point. Without the reliability of ISY, I doubt I could still be counted among Insteon's fans (or customers). Thanks again to everyone at UD for working so tirelessly to keep the customers happy and up to date on developments.

 

amen

[Michel Kohanim]

Tim,

 

I must say that I totally understand your frustration and I give you all the right in the world. I must also confess that basing our release schedule on SH products was not a good idea.

 

Although it's not my place to defend SH - nor would I try - but I must tell you that they are doing their best to get to the bottom of these issues (at least those whom I am in contact with). I know how hard it is to yank out switches and be in a perpetual mode of replacing devices. This said - and if you wish - you can really help by letting us send you replacement units while receiving your units and testing them in our facilities and then at SmartHome. I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

Thank you all so very much for your votes of confidence.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[SteveL]

I just wanted to say that we do take these reports seriously and they do get noticed.

I have been using the ISY since day 1 myself and probably have installed more INSTEON switches than anyone. There have been some problems with the products that were identified and resolved over the last few years. I have installed new products into my system and I am not seeing the same problems that have been reported.

There is a small group of people that are experiencing these issues and we are working to find out what the cause of that is.

 

SteveL

[IndyMike]

SteveL,

 

Very good to hear from you again. Thank you for your post in this thread.

 

Your confirmation that this issue is being actively worked with the UDI team is the best news we've heard in some time. It's also good to hear that you yourself have a ISY installation. It lends credence to the fact that this may be a complicated problem brought on by different firmware revisions, installation size, etc.

 

Hopefully the process that Michel has outlined for recovering problem devices (with a description of the installation) and testing them at both UDI and SH will produce some near term results.

 

While I have seen some "bashing" of SH quality control and testing procedures on other sites, I really have not witnessed it here. I take your statement that this is a narrow problem at face value because it simply doesn't make business sense for it to be otherwise.

 

Unfortunately, this problem has affected people who have previously been solid Insteon proponents. The typical ISY owner appears to have a sizable Insteon base and tends to be looking for a "set it and forget it" system. By and large, our systems have been stable for over a year. The recent outbreak of "new device" problems has brought this crashing down. Our confidence in the product has been shaken and there are those who are looking at alternatives.

 

Speaking as one who dearly wants to continue with Insteon, I would implore you to keep this forum updated on your progress with this problem. The UDI team does a very good job of informing the Forum of investigations and developments, however I'm sure that their hands are tied in many areas due to proprietary issues. Future progress updates from SH would go a long way toward restoring customer confidence.

 

When all is said and done, and this problem has been corrected, I would also implore Smarthome to issue a full technical disclosure on the root cause of the problem as well as corrective action taken to prevent future occurrence. Unlike previous problems that were related to hardware (paddle problems and the like) this issue appears to have the capability of recurring. As a result, a simple "we found it and fixed it" statement will most likely encounter problems. A full disclosure would go a long way toward reassuring the community of Smarthomes' commitment to their customers as well as product quality.

 

IM

[MikeB]

Thanks for the update Steve!

[wwat]

Hi Steve,

 

Appreciate the update.

Some thoughts. Smarthomes have their own online forum, why not use it to create a communications stream between management and your customers. I'm sure you read many of the postings from upset customers, many of those messages have a common thread running through them, the need to communicate issues with management in a public and open manner (just like on this forum). I think it would help Smarthome customers a lot to see management drop into the forum on a daily basis to answer a few messages here and there.

 

Thanks,

Wayne

[sorka]

When I had my third paddle failure out of 20+ switches along with SH's refusal to replace, them, and along with no new product development, I gave up on Insteon, stopped buying, and sat back waiting to see which was going to be the next thing I'd jump into. UPB, Z-Wave, or something else.

 

But then I saw a post that SH was extending the warranty on switches with paddle failures and I called them. It was true. Not only that, they offered to replace all of my Icon switches with Switchlincs at no extra charge. I was thrilled. That along with new products such as access points, motion sensors, and I/O lincs, had me convinced that SH had turned things around on both a CS and development level.

 

Over the last month, I've plunked down another $1000 between the ISY, APs, motion sensors, and additional switches.

 

However, after installing the replacement Switchlincs, communications for the first time ever in my system have become flaky. I bought APs thinking that would cure it. It didn't. It actually seems worse with the Access Points plugged in.

 

All the new switches are all V 4.0

 

But even stranger, the in line modules for my pendants, and my KPL's for turning on and off the pendants in singles or as a group are no longer working reliably either. Even when they do, the KPL buttons flash indicating a failed ack. Those devices are all still I1.

 

I've tried complete factory reset on all switches and restore devices with the same result.

 

Unfortunately, I made the change from HS plugin using the PLC to the ISY and the new switches all at once.

 

I don't know what to suspect. I have all kinds of random thoughts running through my mind.

 

Maybe the newer SH switches aren't repeating hops so aren't acting as repeaters anymore?

 

Maybe the ISY/PLM link programming is doing something different than the PLC did?

 

Just for kicks, when I get home tomorrow, I think I'll factory reset all of the switches again and relink them with the PLC and HouseLinc to see if anything is different.

 

The odd thing is that it's only groups. If I use the ISY or switch to activate a scene, it's flaky. If I use the ISY to directly control a single device, it's 100% all of the time with both the I1 and I2 devices.

 

I'm near my wits end. My wife is now asking me if I'm going to have to "take everything apart" again and can't understand why I'm fiddling with HER lights so much. She's suggested that I call a professional. I know that if I did, they would tell me to scrap Insteon and go with a real system like UPB.

 

The thing is, if Insteon QC issues were resolved, I fundamentally prefer the technology over everyone else's . It's such a shame that they've taken so long to still not get it right and burned so many bridges in the process. My fear is that even if they finally get their act together, that they've burned so many bridges in the installer world that Insteon will never become more than a hobbyist technology

[Michel Kohanim]

sorka,

 

This must be indeed quite frustrating especially after spending more money. From our part, I am going to extend your money back guarantee to 60 days so that you wouldn't have to rush into things.

 

As far as linking everything with PLC, may I humbly suggest not doing so? If you are not on 2.6.14, that's the first thing I would suggest. Second, would it be possible to take one segment at a time, factory reset, and link to ISY. This way, we can isolate the problematic areas and add FilterLincs/Access Points accordingly.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[sorka]

Thanks Michael. I appreciate the effort. Now if only SH would do the same thing

 

I already have .14 running.

 

I also have filterlincs on all the usual syncs like the home theatre equipment and the UPS for the PC.

 

 

Yesterday before I left home, I did the following experiment:

 

Turned off all circuit breakers in the house. Turned back on the one 15 amp that runs the pendants. Turned back on the other 15 amp that is hooked up to the KPL. Unplugged everything else that was on either circuit so that the one KPL and 4 inline modules are completely isolated.

 

Retested and got the same failure rate as before. Then I installed the APs which confirmed that indeed the KPL and pendants are on separate legs. Actually, it's amazing that they worked at all having to go all the way back out to the street and back. My transformer is more than 150 feet down the driveway adding the distance in the house, that makes it about 400 feet of round trip wire the signal has to go through.

 

Installed the APs in outlets on the two opposite legs on those two breakers. Confirmed by the status lights during installation that the APs were on opposite legs. One AP is only 10 inches from the KPL. The other AP is about 8 feet of wire from from the pendants.

 

Retested. Same results. Same failure rate. I decided to isolate these older I1 devices in this test case because these devices were not replaced yet used to work fine without any failures ever without APs. With the APs, I've knocked 380+ feet of line out of the equation....unless of one of the APs is not working. I'll know that when I get my remote linc tomorrow.

 

It occured to me with all of the other switches (with 3 hops in repeating at zero crossover) that every switch would be repeating in unison that perhaps the signal would be more than strong enough to make it 400 feet. That's why I was suspicious that perhaps the newly installed switches are either ignoring the hop count or are just not repeating at all which would make them equivalent to X10 in terms of signal syncs.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi sorka,

 

I understand. We do have commercial clients and they have done something very interesting: the put the access points right next to the breaker for each leg. This way, the signals are bridged at the source. Then, for RL and Thermostats, they just put one (or two) as necessary. Since most of your devices are new, I think they should repeat the signals correctly.

 

I wished I had better answers but, unfortunately, I cannot!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[sorka]

I play around with it more. First thing is to make sure the APs are actually communicating with each other. The next thing is to to reprogram only those 5 I1 devices and try to reproduce the environment they were in before when they were working 100%.

 

BTW, it's really too bad that SH never lived up to the original hype way back in their original literature that said the switches would be field programmable. Seems like it would have save a bundle of money on RMAs.

[matapan]

Would it be constructive to collect and compile a list of failures users run across, and cite the most common problems and solutions associated with each failure?

 

From the user's side of things, is it common for people to know where each circuit runs, as far as outlets, switches and wired-in lights are concerned? In my own residence, I'm not sure if there are any plugs on certain circuits in the house. I think there may be some circuits that have no plugs, making it hard to install an Access Point on the line to improve signal strength.

 

On Smarthome's side, it would be useful to have diagnostic tools to unit test modules, and run tests that check all devices on a breaker circuit. Something to tell a user if there is excessive noise on the circuit, loose connection, or any other issue that might crop up that manifests itself in a communication error.

 

Such tools would save users a lot of grief, and help Smarthome out by having people check their modules first before sending back under warranty.