Setting Associations

[mjpotts82]

How do I associate my light switches with my ISY so that when I use the switch is used the ISY gets the notification?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi mjpotts82,

 

It depends on the device since ISY already associates itself to the device. Most Z-Wave light switches do not send status updates. Those that do, you will immediately see ISY show the status change. For instance, GE Jasco relay does send status updates. Ge Jasco dimmer does not.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

OP, The notification that devices send via zwave was patented by Lutron until recently. That patent has now expired.

 

Since then, to my knowledge, only one manufacturer has incorporated it - the Homeseer dimmer and relay switch. Most other devices have to be polled...

[andyf0]

Hi mjpotts82,

 

It depends on the device since ISY already associates itself to the device. Most Z-Wave light switches do not send status updates. Those that do, you will immediately see ISY show the status change. For instance, GE Jasco relay does send status updates. Ge Jasco dimmer does not.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I'm going to have to challenge that statement. I use Jasco/GE relay switches and dimmers. The switches provide instant feedback, the dimmers take about 5 - 8 seconds to report status. I think it's because they don't have a timing factor built in for the dim amount and ramp rates so they just use the maximum time before reporting status. The same is true for the Jasco/GE outlet dimmers (when controlled by the ISY, they don't provide status when the button is pushed).

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Andy,

 

That might be because ISY queries them.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[danbutter]

If I recall there were two brands that licensed the patent that just expired and they were cooper and leviton, but the leviton had a name with RF in it and cost about $75 each. The coopers weren't much cheaper. These switches did have true instant status. The leviton switches that cost about $50 don't have that technology.

Now aside from that there were/are some devices (ge may have been in this one) that used a command class or something similar that would do something like instant status so to the end user there was no difference noticed.

I think the caveat there was that the switch in question had to directly communicate with the hub.

No talking through the mesh network. This was pretty much just a workaround for the patent as I understand it.

Now all this is from the top of my head after years of researching and applies to many different controllers with many different firmwares.

 

So today you still have the cooper and levitonRF switches as well as the new homeseer switches, but UDI has to get the ISY working with them before it will do you any good. Support for the homeseer switch has been said to be forthcoming in another thread around here. I know nothing of the compatibility of the others.

One more to try may be the dragontech switches that the homeseer are the same as except for the fact that homeseer puts custom firmware on them.

[mjpotts82]

These are Leviton Vizia RF dimmers that report instant status to the vrcop serial controller.

[MWareman]

I'm going to have to challenge that statement. I use Jasco/GE relay switches and dimmers. The switches provide instant feedback, the dimmers take about 5 - 8 seconds to report status. I think it's because they don't have a timing factor built in for the dim amount and ramp rates so they just use the maximum time before reporting status. The same is true for the Jasco/GE outlet dimmers (when controlled by the ISY, they don't provide status when the button is pushed).

When ISY sends a command, I believe it issues a poll afterwards. Either way, the ISY knows what status the device should be, since it just asked it to be the new status.

 

The issue is when the user adjusts the device locally. For ISY to know about it either the device must support instant status (Lutron device, a Lutron licensed device, like Levitron I believe, or a device made after the parent expired like the Homeseer) or the ISY must poll (you can do that with a program, but it's not advised since it causes a lot of traffic).

 

It's also possible that GE/Jasco has updated their dimmers and switches to do status now there is no licensing restriction. That would be great news if it's the case. When were your devices made?

[asbril]

This is a good opportunity to ask (again)  if there is any problem with almost constant querying ?  I have created a program that queries several devices every 4 seconds, and another program that queries other devices every 15 seconds. I don't think that this has given me any problem so far and I wonder whether I could have a program that queries devices every second. Would that not resolve the question of getting more expensive devices with status reporting ????

[andyf0]

Hi Andy,

 

That might be because ISY queries them.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

If the GE/Jasco dimmer doesn't send status when the paddle is pressed how does the ISY know to query it? I still maintain the GE/Jasco dimmer sends status after the paddle is pressed albeit a little delayed.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Andy,

 

There's is alert and then there's change of state. All INSTEON devices (and Jasco relay) send change of state so that ISY does not have to query. Others, don't.

 

asbril,

 

I do not see any harm in querying everything. This said, you are just creating a huge network traffic.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[vjk]

I still maintain the GE/Jasco dimmer sends status after the paddle is pressed albeit a little delayed.

 

When you press a button on a GE/Jasco dimmer, what it sends is a NIF packet used primarily for inclusion purposes.  It can be used as a poor man substitute for instant status, i.e. a controller detects a NIF and then polls the device.  A NIF packet differs from a status notification packet in three respects at least:

 

1. It's a broadcast packet.

2. It's a non-routable packet and thus visible only if the device is in the controller range

3. It does not get ack'd and no attempt to re-transmit takes place, therefore.

 

Here's what happens in my network:

 

1. A jasco dimmer NIF

HomeId     SrcNode  DstNode  Payload

01037408  2              255           2100 0101c904001100202627867242

 

2. A thermostat instant status:

01037408  4               13          4109 3105010940b3  -- temperature change notification to controller (13)

01037408 13                4          0309 88                      -- ack from controller

 

[andyf0]

I find it highly unlikely that a device would send a NIF packet unless it had no home network. Devices sometimes have to be excluded before they can be included. Excluding a device sets it's home network to zero so that a NIF packet will be sent during an include. If the device sent a NIF on every paddle press then your neighbor would be able to include the device into their network, overwriting your home network and taking control of the device. This would be a serious security hole.

[mjpotts82]

I think we're a little off topic here.

 

I transferred primary control to the isy and need to set the associations between the switches and the isy. Can this be done?

[oberkc]

I know nothing about packets or NIFs.

 

What I can confirm is that I have on zwave switch added to my ISY. I think it is one of those GE-branded devices for use with the Wink system. Having done nothing special, the ISY knows its status changes when manually pressed. I can use device.status as a program condition. I cannot use it as a scene controller (ISY SW 4.X).

 

Given my experience, I suggest you add your switch to the ISY then perform a quick experiement. While toggling your switch on/off, observe th status in the ISY admin panel. Does the status change for each paddle press? If so, the answer to your question is yes. If not, then likely no, infortunately.

 

I am unsure how SW V5.X would affect this if at all.

[Chris Jahn]

I think we're a little off topic here.

 

I transferred primary control to the isy and need to set the associations between the switches and the isy. Can this be done?

 

Hi mjpotts82,

 

Some associations between the ISY and the device are automatically created, but you cannot manually associate a device to another device in ISY version 4.X.  In 5.X it is part of the new Z-Wave scene support.

[PurdueGuy]

I find it highly unlikely that a device would send a NIF packet unless it had no home network. Devices sometimes have to be excluded before they can be included. Excluding a device sets it's home network to zero so that a NIF packet will be sent during an include. If the device sent a NIF on every paddle press then your neighbor would be able to include the device into their network, overwriting your home network and taking control of the device. This would be a serious security hole.

 

I think they do, and that's how Vera would get "instant status" when in range of a GE/Jasco device.

The same button press is used for include and exclude.   The switch doesn't know what the controller is going to do.  In order for your neighbor to get control of your devices:

  - be in direct RF range

  - have a controller set to "exclude" when a paddle is pressed

  - have a controller set to "include" when a paddle is pressed at a later time

 

Some Z-Wave devices get around even this possibility by requiring double-clicks of the paddle (when in normal use, one would never double-click it).

[stusviews]

I think we're a little off topic here.

 

I transferred primary control to the isy and need to set the associations between the switches and the isy. Can this be done?

 

Try Z-Wave > Tools > Synchronize Nodes followed by Heal Z-Wave Network.

[mjpotts82]

Try Z-Wave > Tools > Synchronize Nodes followed by Heal Z-Wave Network.

 

Tried that and no go.

 

I think I'll exclude one of the dimmers and then include it directly to the ISY to see if that fixes the issue.