INSTEON Communications Issues

[aa9876]

We just did a large remodel, and I am trying to get my ISY running again.   I am having about 20% of messages work.   Considering we pretty much re-did our electrical system with the remodel (new wiring, new devices, etc.), it is not really possible to start by turning off what has changed.

 

I have a new PLM and it is on it's own dedicated circuit close to the panel.  I have tried unplugging everything in the house, and even turning off most of the breakers, and I still get the issue.   

 

I suspect something is making interference on the line, or draining the signal, but considering I have tried shutting off most of the breakers, I am at a loss as what to try.

 

Any suggestions welcome.   This is very frustrating.   

 

Is there some advance troubleshooting device that might be in order?   I am very close to buying an oscilloscope to try to track down this noise...

[paulbates]

How did you address bridging of the power legs if the electrical system was substantially changed?

 

Did you use a Signalinc bridge in the panel, or validate that there are dual band devices on both power legs using the "4 tap" test?

 

Paul

[stusviews]

What do you mean by, "I am having about 20% of messages work?" Do you mean notifications are not occurring? Or something else?

[aa9876]

If I command a light on, most of the time nothing happens.   If I do it 10 times, it might work once.

 

I also see a lot of "ERR 1".   I think this is a NACK from the device?   If so, the device is probably receiving a garbled message?

 

I also occasionally see X10 messages--which is strange because I have no X10.

 

Is the Event Viewer, set on Level 3, showing everything?   It seems slow and slightly out of sync with my testing.   I am also not sure it is showing retries?

 

I am super frustrated with this.   I spent all weekend trying to isolate this, unplugging everything and shutting off breakers, but just could not seem to narrow it down.

[paulbates]

If you are seeing x10 where none is present, that sounds it could be the plm or noise.

 

Try a factory reset of the plm and a restore modem.

 

If that doesn't help, I would take a plug in device that can be moved like a lamplinc. Delete it, factory rest it and reinstall, using a circuit near the plm. Start on the isy' s circuit and move outwards, map the problem.

 

Anything installed near the panel like a regulator or ups?

 

Paul

[aa9876]

Thanks again, Paul.  I appreciate the suggestion and encouragement.   I will try again this weekend when I have some time to work on it.

 

I suspect I have something that is creating substantial noise or soaking up the signal.   Unfortunately, I can't seem to track it down.   I have tried unplugging everything, and from there, shutting off most breakers, but that didn't seem to help.  

 

I am also relying on several dual-band devices to propagate the signal, so shutting off breakers seems to significantly change the network topology.

 

Overall, troubleshooting this type of thing is extremely frustrating.   I wish I had a signal meter or some more specific testing device, so I could shut each breaker off until I saw the noise disappear.   I am tempted to pick up an oscilloscope, but I suspect that is a long road to walk down.   Also, with the ISY, I don't have a lot of confidence in the event viewer showing everything that is literally on the powerline.   I suspect there is more happening than it shows.   At the very least, it is slow.

 

My electrical system, given that it's an older house, is also complicated.   I have a main service panel, and three sub panels in different parts of the house.

[Teken]

If you unplugged everything and turned off breakers have you pulled out all bulbs in the home which are NOT incandescent? When trouble shooting its important to isolate and kill any large appliances which can not be unplugged.

 

- Furnace, HWT, Fridge, Freezer, Geo Thermal, Solar, Well pumps, etc.

 

Once that is done leave every item in the home unplugged and see if comms are fine. Performing a local scene test vs ISY Admin Console initiated *Scene Test*. You will notice there will be a difference in the local scene test vs the admin one. Also, for a moment lets assume every breaker that needs to be turned off is. All electrical devices are unplugged and every bulb is removed from the Insteon network.

 

If you still see a comm issue the next step is air gap every device in the home and start in one room and confirm local control. If that works with out issue then leave that first room, zone, floor, area alone. Move to the next device and disable the air gap and rinse and repeat.

 

Your either going to find all is well or there is a device that is not operating as expected either locally or remotely. Obviously you need to be cognoscente of the wiring so the signal can reach one another. There have been many isolated instances where a Insteon TSTAT, Switch, has caused a fire storm in endless data packets.  

[aa9876]

Ok, I am making some progress.   I suspect I have multiple problems, and I have been trying to isolate and address them.   I added several more filters, and that seemed to help.

 

The biggest thing I think I have tracked down is the blowers on our two new air handlers.   They are electronically controlled motors (ECM) / aka variable frequency drive DC motors.  When either of these is running, the erroneous X10 messages / line noise / Insteon issues instantly appear, and correspondingly go away when they cycle off.

 

Now the question is how to filter these?

 

I need a 20A inline Insteon filter, and I cannot seem to find such a device?

[Brian H]

X10 filters should also work.

X10Pro makes a 20 amp filter. Though it is a wired in one. Independent automation dealers may have it cheaper than from X10 direct.

https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/specialty-devices/filters/xpf-20a-wired-in-noise-filter.html

 

If a Plug in type is required. The heaviest I have seen is a JV Digital Engineering XTBF15

http://jvde.us/xtb-f10.htm

 

ACT has dropped all of their A10/X10 product line but you still may find an ACT AF120 15 amp one somewhere.

[aa9876]

Wire-in is what I need, but it is a two phase motor.   I suppose I could use two of them?

 

And, just to confirm, the X10 frequencies are the same, so this should filter Insteon also?

 

Thanks again.

[Brian H]

2 Phase? So it is 220 Volts using both incoming power lines. Do you also have a Neutral connection if needed?

 

X10 is 120 KHz power line frequency. Insteon is 131.65 KHz.

They are close enough for X10 filters to work with Insteon.

I have never seen a filter designed specifically for Insteon. Even the FilterLinc was originally sold for X10 and I don't think Smartlabs tuned them for Insteon.

 

Some folks have said a XPNR worked for them with Insteon. I have no experience with them. I believe they absorb noise around the X10/Insteon frequencies.

https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/specialty-devices/filters/xpnr-noise-reducer.html

[aa9876]

Yes, it is 2 phase, 220V with two lines.   I don't know if it has a neutral, but I understand it is needed.   I will check when I get a minute.  Worst case, I will run a new line from the panel.

 

For $100, I do not mind giving it a try.   I am surprised there is not an Insteon version, tuned to that specific frequency.

[Brian H]

With the standard value and tolerance components used in the filters. They are not precision tuned and are designed to have fairly wide frequency range of filtering effectiveness.

[paulbates]

I've used those filters for motor and transformer noise and they are very effective. The frequency is close enough that they suppress a lot of the noise to a level that works.

 

They are wired across the hot and neutral and usually fit in the wiring box of the unit

 

Paul

[aa9876]

Great, I ordered a couple and will give them a try.   I will let you know the results.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Brian H]

Will be waiting for your findings.

I would expect good results.

I took the cover of of one and it used standard parts that would give the XPF a fairly wide frequency spread for filtering effectiveness.

[stusviews]

Yes, it is 2 phase, 220V with two lines.   I don't know if it has a neutral, but I understand it is needed.   I will check when I get a minute.  Worst case, I will run a new line from the panel.

 

For $100, I do not mind giving it a try.   I am surprised there is not an Insteon version, tuned to that specific frequency.

 

You motor must be very old. There haven't been any 2-phase motors built for nearly a century (except in Philadelphia). What you have is a 220/240 VAC single-phase motor.

 

An X10 XPF (not XPXPF) fiter is the only current Insteon powerline filter that can handle 20 amps. You'll need a neutral and an external enclosure.You may need two filters. BTW, I use on to power all the gear in my computer room.

 

I have no recommendation for a place of purchase. The link I added is just the first I found.

[aa9876]

Well, a few things:

 

-I had a look, and no neutral is there.  I am going to have to run a new line.   This is going to be a major project, with cutting walls, etc.

 

-I ordered a pair of the X10 XPF 20A wired filters.  Specifically, these:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002M5OI4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

-The motor is part of a Trane HVAC air handler that is brand new.   The unit comes with a "Variable Speed ECM Motor".  This is essentially a DC motor, and the electronics convert the 220VAC into DC to power the motor.   Somewhat popular on new HVAC equipment.  Variable frequency drives, which is what this is, are notorious for generating line noise, since they create a number of harmonics as they switch the AC to generate the various DC voltages.

[paulbates]

I bought the XPNRs for my original furnaces with older PSC style motors. These motors were so noisy they destroyed a PLM before I figured it out. The XPNRs worked great for those, but my new Carrier furnaces have brushless variable speed ECM motors.. I had the XPNRs removed with the old furnaces and no problems with them 

 

I'm sure its possible, but I've run two furnaces through the available speeds and no problems for insteon.

 

Paul

[matt.york]

I have a similar question about an “Intelligent Variable Frequency Drive” that directs changes in submersible pump motor speed.

http://www.sta-rite.com/ResidentialProduct_sr_ws_4s_Intellidrive_2012.aspx

I have not tried to install it yet.

The house was built in 1955 so the 220 volt wires from the circuit breaker box to the does NOT have a ground wire, just 2 hots(black) and a neutral (white).

Will I need to install a X10 XPF fiter ?

Will I need to install a Signalinc bridge in the panel?

Thanks in advance for helping.

This forum is great!

 

 

[Brian H]

The users manual for the controls. Indicate it has an  EMI/RFI filter in it. It probably will not make power line noise. Depending in the filters design. It may absorb the Insteon power line commands as noise. So a pair of XPF filters maybe needed. After you test the system.

I don't have any experience with the XPNR noise reducers. If the controller is not making power line noise. It would not do much.

If you use the XPF you will need two. One XPF on each Line to the Neutral. The XPF manual shows how to use in a 220 volt system. It is also large physically. 2.0" D X 1.75" W X 3.5" L fits a 3 Gang Box. If you used two for 220 volts. The electrical box may have to be even larger.

http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/XPF.pdf