Insteon device odd behavior

[Zahnarzt]

Hello,

 

I've used my ISY994i with a handful of switches and basic programs for a few years now without issue, but I recently had a PLM go bad.  I replaced the PLM per the instructions, and now everything appears to be back to normal with the exception of some strange behavior for about two weeks or so.

 

Mobilinc on iOS would report different switches as ON when they were actually OFF, or vice versa.  Simply turning the switches ON or OFF in Mobilinc appeared to fix the status.  The ISY interface appeared to have intermittent communication with a certain switch, call it Switch A, and at one point, the ISY interface said it could not communicate with Switch A.  No everything appears to be back to normal with no changes made by me.  What happened here?  Is this cause for concern?

 

I also have another switch that's on a different phase than the other switches, and it's out of radio range.  I usually remedied this issue by placing a dual band Insteon outdoor switch dongle on a circuit on the same phase as most of the switches but within radio range of the single switch on the other phase.  Signals from the PLM on the one phase were relayed by the dual band dongle via radio to the one switch on the other phase.  This worked well for a few years but does not appear to work anymore.  The dongle switch gets and responds to signals OK, but the single switch on the other phase doesn't appear to get the signal, and the ISY can't communicate with it.  The single switch is about 3' from the dual band dongle through one sheet of drywall.  Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

[stusviews]

A bit of clarification. Electricity is delivered to homes as a split, single-phase electric supply. The split refers to the power transformer that's center tapped. The center tap is the neutral wire. Then voltage between the center tap and either outer end of the transformer is 110/120VAC and the potential between the outer wires, referred to as opposite legs, is 220/24VAC. They're called opposite legs because the direction of the current flow in each leg is 180 degrees out-of-phase with the direction of the current flow in the other leg.

 

Back to the topic.  The first thing to do is to check for communication between any dual-band device and the problem device. You can do that by initiating the 4-tap test and observing the result.  Tap the set button on a dual-band device four times very, very quickly. The device should start blinking and beeping. If that doesn't occur, then you didn't tap fast enough.

 

Now observe the LED on the problem device. What do you see?

[larryllix]

Thinko/typo. LOL

 

That would be 180 degrees out of phase, on a split-phase single-phase system, that is split into the two phases.

 

120 degrees is the usual phase difference between the phases in a three phase system.

[stusviews]

Right you are, 180 degrees it is. Thanks for catching the typo, correction applied.

[Zahnarzt]

A bit of clarification. Electricity is delivered to homes as a split, single-phase electric supply. The split refers to the power transformer that's center tapped. The center tap is the neutral wire. Then voltage between the center tap and either outer end of the transformer is 110/120VAC and the potential between the outer wires, referred to as opposite legs, is 220/24VAC. They're called opposite legs because the direction of the current flow in each leg is 180 degrees out-of-phase with the direction of the current flow in the other leg.

 

Back to the topic.  The first thing to do is to check for communication between any dual-band device and the problem device. You can do that by initiating the 4-tap test and observing the result.  Tap the set button on a dual-band device four times very, very quickly. The device should start blinking and beeping. If that doesn't occur, then you didn't tap fast enough.

 

Now observe the LED on the problem device. What do you see?

I initialized the 4-tap test on the dual band dongle.  No response from the problem device (a SmartHome ToggleLinc Dimmer 2466DW) or any other Insteon or SmartHome device for that matter.

[stusviews]

What's a dual-band dongle?

[Zahnarzt]

What's a dual-band dongle?

This: https://goo.gl/V8vOZ3

[jtara92101]

I also have another switch that's on a different phase than the other switches, and it's out of radio range.  I usually remedied this issue by placing a dual band Insteon outdoor switch dongle on a circuit on the same phase as most of the switches but within radio range of the single switch on the other phase.  Signals from the PLM on the one phase were relayed by the dual band dongle via radio to the one switch on the other phase.  This worked well for a few years but does not appear to work anymore.  The dongle switch gets and responds to signals OK, but the single switch on the other phase doesn't appear to get the signal, and the ISY can't communicate with it.  The single switch is about 3' from the dual band dongle through one sheet of drywall.  Any ideas?

 

 

I'm confused. How can the switch be simultaneously out of radio range, and at the same time is 3' away from the dual-band device that IS within radio range? Is there an extraordinary length of wire between the two? (e.g. they are physically 3' away, but 100' of wire connects the boxes?)

 

How far is "out of radio range"?

 

Until I just re-read your post, I was thinking the switch must be in, for example, an outbuilding. Can you give some details of the physical layout, distances, and how/where wires are run?

 

Insteon (or ANY RF or wired technology) loses signal strength with distance. But both RF and wired (or dual) devices "repeat" the signals they receive and strengthen the network. It would be helpful to install additional devices (preferably dual-band) along any long run of wire.

 

I'd guess that either your dual-band outdoor module or the switch has gone south. I have a couple of the outdoor on/off modules, and as I recall, they were among the first dual-band devices. What is the date code? 

 

I have no use for the dual-band outdoor modules, as I moved. But ALL of the other early dual-band devices I have (notably, a BUNCH of the first-generation of dual-band KeypadLincs) fail miserably in my system, to the extent of interfering with communication between both older and newer devices. So, I am very reluctant to use early dual-band devices!

 

The latest generation of dual-band seems quite reliable, and they have increased radio range. The KPLs work well for me, and others have noted that the dual on/off outlet seems to have the greatest RF range. There is a discussion somewhere here about which devices have the greatest radio range.

[stusviews]

I initialized the 4-tap test on the dual band dongle.  No response from the problem device (a SmartHome ToggleLinc Dimmer 2466DW) or any other Insteon or SmartHome device for that matter.

 

Insteon ToggleLinc are not dual-band devices, so they won't respond to the 4-tap test which is RF only. What's the result it you start the 4-tap test on a different dual-band device? Also, older Outdoor Modules were not dual-band either. How old is you Outdoor On/Off Module?

[Zahnarzt]

I'm confused. How can the switch be simultaneously out of radio range, and at the same time is 3' away from the dual-band device that IS within radio range? Is there an extraordinary length of wire between the two? (e.g. they are physically 3' away, but 100' of wire connects the boxes?)

 

How far is "out of radio range"?

 

Until I just re-read your post, I was thinking the switch must be in, for example, an outbuilding. Can you give some details of the physical layout, distances, and how/where wires are run?

 

Insteon (or ANY RF or wired technology) loses signal strength with distance. But both RF and wired (or dual) devices "repeat" the signals they receive and strengthen the network. It would be helpful to install additional devices (preferably dual-band) along any long run of wire.

 

I'd guess that either your dual-band outdoor module or the switch has gone south. I have a couple of the outdoor on/off modules, and as I recall, they were among the first dual-band devices. What is the date code? 

 

I have no use for the dual-band outdoor modules, as I moved. But ALL of the other early dual-band devices I have (notably, a BUNCH of the first-generation of dual-band KeypadLincs) fail miserably in my system, to the extent of interfering with communication between both older and newer devices. So, I am very reluctant to use early dual-band devices!

 

The latest generation of dual-band seems quite reliable, and they have increased radio range. The KPLs work well for me, and others have noted that the dual on/off outlet seems to have the greatest RF range. There is a discussion somewhere here about which devices have the greatest radio range.

The non-responsive switch is by itself out of radio range of any other device _unless_ I put the dual band dongle in that 3' away location.  Then the dongle acts as a relay (or used to).  The non-responsive switch is in my garage.  The dongle used to work as a relay to that switch when I connected it to an outlet just inside the door that leads to the garage (inside the house).  The two devices are approximately 3' from one another line of sight through basic interior drywall.  There's nothing unusual under the drywall that would significantly attenuate RF.  I'd hate to think either the dongle or the switch is going bad.  The dongle was purchased in mid 2013, though I don't have the date code handy.

Yes, I have a handful of switches to install that will do much to add to signal propagation--just need to find time to get them in.  I just thought it was off that the one switch stopped responding.  Makes me a bit uneasy to think that if fill up my house with these $50 switches and outlets that I'm always going to have to be messing with the system to keep it working.

[Zahnarzt]

Insteon ToggleLinc are not dual-band devices, so they won't respond to the 4-tap test which is RF only. What's the result it you start the 4-tap test on a different dual-band device? Also, older Outdoor Modules were not dual-band either. How old is you Outdoor On/Off Module?

 

I thought I was testing an outlet that was dual band, but now I am not sure if it is or not.  I deleted my previous post.  It looks like the 2473SWH OutletLinc was discontinued.  SmartHome linked me to what appears to be it's successor.  I'll check another dual band device this weekend.  Thanks for the help, by the way.

[jtara92101]

I'm still confused.

 

Your switch is just 3' beyond radio range?

 

Is that wall lined with lead? Is your name Clark Kent?

 

The non-responsive switch does not have RF, as Stu points out. "radio range" is irrelevant. I would try a current-model dual-band SwitchLinc in it's place. 

 

For most/all circuit breaker boxes, you will find the breaker positions alternate phases, as you go from top to bottom (not left to right). If you have compact breakers, pay attention to the position numbers stamped on the box, not the actual breakers. 220V breakers will occupy two slots or in case of compact might use the two INNER positions spanning two numbered slots.

 

If you have only one circuit in the garage, identify which phase it is on. Then identify the phases your other devices are on. You need at least one dual-band device on each phase to bridge the signal across phases. For starters, one on each phase, as close as possible to the box. It's also helpful if your PLM is close to the breaker box. Your PLM counts as one of the dual-band devices, assuming it is a 2413S.

 

If you have no functional need for additional devices, you can use one or more range extenders.

[stusviews]

It's not possible to place devices one on each phase as the electric supply is split, single-phase. See my reply, post #2

[Teken]

I'm still confused.

 

Your switch is just 3' beyond radio range?

 

Is that wall lined with lead? Is your name Clark Kent?

 

 

LOL . . .

[jtara92101]

It's not possible to place devices one on each phase as the electric supply is split, single-phase. See my reply, post #2

 

"each phase" = "opposing legs" for the pedantic...

[stusviews]

Correct terminology, however painful it may be, helps to avoid erroneous responses.

 

BTW, they're opposite not opposing legs. That the current flows in opposite directions is cooperative. If the opposite legs are truly balanced, then no current flows through the neutral wire at all. If the opposites legs are not balanced, then the neutral wire carries only the difference.

[jtara92101]

Correct terminology, however painful it may be, helps to avoid erroneous responses.

 

BTW, they're opposite not opposing legs. That the current flows in opposite directions is cooperative. If the opposite legs are truly balanced, then no current flows through the neutral wire at all. If the opposites legs are not balanced, then the neutral wire carries only the difference.

 

"opposite legs", then.

 

Let's leave it with:

 

You need at least one RF device on the eenies. And you need at least on RF device on the meenies.

 

[Zahnarzt]

OK, back at it here.  Sorry, it's been a few years since I've messed with any of this stuff.  As I've looked into things a bit, the only dual band devices I have are the outdoor on/off switch dongle and the PLM itself.  The PLM responds to the 4-tap beacon test initiated by the outdoor switch with red and green flashes.  I can access the outdoor switch via ISY admin console no matter which leg I plug it into.  This leads me to believe the outdoor switch is OK.  I have the PLM on one leg and the dual band outdoor switch on the other (I won't call them phases anymore, promise. =D)  The PLM issues commands, and the outdoor switch relays them to the other phase.  I also swapped legs with the outdoor switch and the PLM, rebooting the ISY, of course, and everything works as its supposed to except for that one switch.  I'm starting to believe I have a bad switch.  Good news is that I have an identical model from the same order on the shelf.  I'll give it a try soon and will hopefully be able to put this to rest.

 

On another note, do these devices fail regularly?  Thanks again for the help, guys.

[stusviews]

This leads me to believe the outdoor switch is OK.  I have the PLM on one leg and the dual band outdoor switch on the other (I won't call them phases anymore, promise. =D)  The PLM issues commands, and the outdoor switch relays them to the other phase..

 

You just did

[oberkc]

(I won't call them phases anymore, promise. =D)

 

 

 If the two "legs" are viewed as a waveform, the use of the term "phase" is actually correct.  It is all about perspective and context.  The good news is that, if you slipped up, the risk of erroneous responses is extremely low.

do these devices fail regularly?

 

I suppose it depends on your definition of "regularly".  They probably fail more regularly than the simple switch they replaced.  But...in my experience, no, they do not fail regularly.  I would add, however, that they seem less tolerant of power spikes and shorts. 

 

It does seem as though the failure of the PLM is pretty common, however.

[stusviews]

Phase is correct terminology when referring to single-phase or three-phase supplies. Phases (pl) and "the other phase," although commonly used, is incorrect when referring the the electric supply in virtually every residence in North America.

[oberkc]

Phases (pl) and "the other phase," although commonly used, is incorrect

 

 

Maybe incorrect to some, but seldom confused or confusing.

 

Given the bickering I have seen among electricians on the topic, I also remain unconvinced that the absolute correctness is settled.  For the purposes of an insteon forum, I find the use of "phase" to be quite acceptable.

[stusviews]

Phase is correct. Two-phases or even phases when referring to the split, single-phase electric supply at virtually every residence is incorrect. Check out technical literature, not popular vernacular.

 

Any electrician knows or should know. After decades in the industry, I've never know a professional that wasn't aware of the correct terminology, save handy men and such.

 

I'm not saying that the term is misunderstood, only that it's technically incorrect. Not all adhesive bandages are Band-Aids^TM, not all cellophane tape is made by 3M (Scotch Tape is). Post Toasties are not Corn Flakes

[Zahnarzt]

Phase, leg, whatever... I'm thinking waveform here.  Either way, we're talking about the same thing, and I appreciate the help.  Now to try a replacement switch.  =D

[larryllix]

Maybe incorrect to some, but seldom confused or confusing.

 

Given the bickering I have seen among electricians on the topic, I also remain unconvinced that the absolute correctness is settled.  For the purposes of an insteon forum, I find the use of "phase" to be quite acceptable.

When talking about purpose of the conductors, they are phases, not neutrals, or the slang term "legs".

 

When talking phase angle, they are out of phase by 180 degrees, and two different phases.

 

When talking supply from the grid, it's single phase right up to the last transformer, then it is split into two phases, yet many electricians do not use two phase, typically having a different meaning.

 

If we didn't have different phase the tap test wouldn't work.

 

We constantly had to correct Electricians in the electrical utility business. Each trade has it's own culture and terms.

 

To constantly point out Americans spell dfferently than Canadians would be just disruptive to the forum and discussion flow, just as pushing a cultural dependent expression would be when there is absolutely no reason to do so.

 

Either and whatever term somebody wants to use, the meaning is easily understood by context. I don't have any problem with Electrician jargon or Engineer jargon in this respect.