silverton38 Posted July 5, 2017 Posted July 5, 2017 I am a heavy Insteon user and I am seriously thinking about switching to Z-wave. I have purchased my first Z-wave ISY and I am considering it on my new install with no Insteon at all. I hate those PLM failures. I found a good switch on amazon GE Z-Wave Wireless Smart Lighting Control Smart Switch for only $37 a unit. My Questions; Does the ISY work with all Z-Wave devices? If not what devices should I avoid? Any other good advice on Z-Wave setups?
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I am a heavy Insteon user and I am seriously thinking about switching to Z-wave. I have purchased my first Z-wave ISY and I am considering it on my new install with no Insteon at all. I hate those PLM failures. I found a good switch on amazon GE Z-Wave Wireless Smart Lighting Control Smart Switch for only $37 a unit. My Questions; Does the ISY work with all Z-Wave devices? If not what devices should I avoid? Any other good advice on Z-Wave setups? I dropped Insteon a few years ago and went Zwave all the way. Though others disagree, I will never go back to Insteon. With regard to switches, if you are ok to spend a bit more for switches, I recommend to go for ZWave Plus switches and specifically for ON/OFF and DIMMER switches I recommend Homeseer switches. I believe that there are no Homeseer Fan switches but I believe that GE/Jasco recently also came out with ZWave Plus switches (incl Fan), but the old (Non ZWave Plus) switches are still available as is likely the case with your $ 37 switch.
Brian H Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 If you have a Z-Wave only setup with an ISY994i. There is a Z-Wave only version of most firmware revisions. That does not flag a "No PLM Found" boot up error and go into safe mode.
stusviews Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 Not all Z-wave devices report their status, so you cannot use those as a program trigger.
oberkc Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I like both. In my experience (limited to ISY version 4.X) one cannot create scenes that have z-wave devices as a controller (will act as responders, however), so that means that your installation will be entirely dependent on the presence of the ISY to maintain all relationships among devices. I understand that this is, or will be, different in v5, but I cannot speak to that. You may also lose the ability to trigger different responder levels based on controller, but programs could solve this problem. You are obviously not the first to consider this route. My recollection from other posts is that z-wave only can work quite satisfactorily. Were this me, I would start slow and experiment, just to see if it meets your own needs.
Jimbo.Automates Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 There are some things I don't like with insteon, but the direct links between controller and responder keep me using it. The fast response is needed in some cases, especially once you are used to it. If that ever works for zwave I will consider it. But I do have many zwave devices where they make sense. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
silverton38 Posted July 6, 2017 Author Posted July 6, 2017 What is the difference between Z-wave switches and Z-wave plus switches?
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 What is the difference between Z-wave switches and Z-wave plus switches? http://z-wavealliance.org/z-wave_plus_certification/
lilyoyo1 Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I use insteon switches and zwave sensors. I do have a few zwave outlets and switches in closets that I purchased out of curiosity. In my opinion, I think Insteon is much more flexible and forgiving than zwave. From my experience I prefer zwave over insteon for sensors (specifically fibaro) but keypads and switches over zwave. If all you need is a single outlet for receptacles, my personal favorite are the ones by Cooper. I feel they are on par with Insteon outlets. When it comes to switches however, I do prefer the insteon switches over zwave for style and flexibility. With that said; personally you can't go wrong with either one as long as you take the time to set them up properly. Both systems have their pros and cons. I think insteon is easier to troubleshoot but based on each individuals experience, one may disagree. In the end, I feel it comes down to preference, environment and use as to which one is best in regards to any given installation
larryllix Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I dropped Insteon a few years ago and went Zwave all the way. Though others disagree, I will never go back to Insteon. With regard to switches, if you are ok to spend a bit more for switches, I recommend to go for ZWave Plus switches and specifically for ON/OFF and DIMMER switches I recommend Homeseer switches. I believe that there are no Homeseer Fan switches but I believe that GE/Jasco recently also came out with ZWave Plus switches (incl Fan), but the old (Non ZWave Plus) switches are still available as is likely the case with your $ 37 switch. Does this mean the non-ZWave Plus devices do NOT have immediate status updating to remote devices? Does this mean all ZWave Plus devices DO have immediate status updating to remote devices? ....or is that feature not necessarily related? I couldn't find mention of that feature in the article linked.
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I use insteon switches and zwave sensors. I do have a few zwave outlets and switches in closets that I purchased out of curiosity. In my opinion, I think Insteon is much more flexible and forgiving than zwave. From my experience I prefer zwave over insteon for sensors (specifically fibaro) but keypads and switches over zwave. If all you need is a single outlet for receptacles, my personal favorite are the ones by Cooper. I feel they are on par with Insteon outlets. When it comes to switches however, I do prefer the insteon switches over zwave for style and flexibility. With that said; personally you can't go wrong with either one as long as you take the time to set them up properly. Both systems have their pros and cons. I think insteon is easier to troubleshoot but based on each individuals experience, one may disagree. In the end, I feel it comes down to preference, environment and use as to which one is best in regards to any given installation lilioyo, I fully respect your preference and I know that others also prefer Insteon over Zwave. As you say, both work fine and whatever you are comfortable with is good. What I, personally, do not like about Insteon is that the PLM's break down after some (relatively short) time, and you depend on one sole manufacturer. Time will tell but my bet is that Zwave has a better chance of compatibility with multi-system hubs and new evolving technologies. With regard to Cooper switches, I found it annoying that the sentinel light on Cooper switches is ON when the switch is set ON while most other switches have the sentinel lights ON when switch is set OFF, which is useful in the dark at night. Furthermore, if you use switches from different manufacturers, it can be confusing with different meanings of the sentinel lights. I have some 30 Zwave switches and my experience is that the Homeseer switches are the best.
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 Does this mean the non-ZWave Plus devices do NOT have immediate status updating to remote devices? Does this mean all ZWave Plus devices DO have immediate status updating to remote devices? ....or is that feature not necessarily related? I couldn't find mention of that feature in the article linked. YES ZWave Plus (at least with my Homeseer switches) comes with Instant Status and this makes a big difference. Some pre-Zwave Plus switches also have Instant Status but most do not. It used to be an issue of licensing but I believe that this specific patent expired.
larryllix Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 YES ZWave Plus (at least with my Homeseer switches) comes with Instant Status and this makes a big difference. I was just surprised that feature wasn't mentioned. To methat was one of the biggest drawbacks for Zwave. For me, all the devices without instant status updates, were useless for HA logic, the main selling point of ISY. It would only be Remote Control, not Home Automation and a step backward to the X10 days.
paulbates Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 lilioyo, I fully respect your preference and I know that others also prefer Insteon over Zwave. As you say, both work fine and whatever you are comfortable with is good. What I, personally, do not like about Insteon is that the PLM's break down after some (relatively short) time, and you depend on one sole manufacturer. Time will tell but my bet is that Zwave has a better chance of compatibility with multi-system hubs and new evolving technologies. With regard to Cooper switches, I found it annoying that the sentinel light on Cooper switches is ON when the switch is set ON while most other switches have the sentinel lights ON when switch is set OFF, which is useful in the dark at night. Furthermore, if you use switches from different manufacturers, it can be confusing with different meanings of the sentinel lights. I have some 30 Zwave switches and my experience is that the Homeseer switches are the best. I respect your preference too. However, I don't quite understand the point that relying on one manufacturer, Smarthome/Insteon is bad, but for zwave, its best to avoid brand/implementation confusion and only use "the" Homeseer switch. That appears to be the case because it most closely provides the features originally designed into Insteon switches. To me, that sounds like relying on one manufacturer and model and not an advantage of variety(?) Again, everyone can have their own preference and I'm not against zwave, I have a system from before zwave, and if I was starting form scratch today, it would be a tough choice. However it would be expensive and time consuming for me to change out everything I have now to zwave, several times over to try out the variants (cooper,etc), to get back to the functionality I have, to solve a problem that I don't have.
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I respect your preference too. However, I don't quite understand the point that relying on one manufacturer, Smarthome/Insteon is bad, but for zwave, its best to avoid brand/implementation confusion and only use "the" Homeseer switch. That appears to be the case because it most closely provides the features originally designed into Insteon switches. To me, that sounds like relying on one manufacturer and model and not an advantage of variety(?) Again, everyone can have their own preference and I'm not against zwave, I have a system from before zwave, and if I was starting form scratch today, it would be a tough choice. However it would be expensive and time consuming for me to change out everything I have now to zwave, several times over to try out the variants (cooper,etc), to get back to the functionality I have, to solve a problem that I don't have. I do not use only Homeseer switches, as I have many GE/Jasco switches as well as other brand modules. I was giving my personal view that I like Homeseer switches the best. I am not trying to make an argument as I understand that many Insteon users love it.
larryllix Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 I do not use only Homeseer switches, as I have many GE/Jasco switches as well as other brand modules. I was giving my personal view that I like Homeseer switches the best. I am not trying to make an argument as I understand that many Insteon users love it. Sounds like the need for a thread with reports regarding ZWave devices. With just Insteon devices there was no brand comparisons, only different device reviews. If there are better and worse brands/models potential users, like me. may like to hear about it before jumping into a lot of cheap brand units with problems.
silverton38 Posted July 6, 2017 Author Posted July 6, 2017 Thank You for all the amazing input here. It sounds like I will try a full house (I have done hundreds of houses with Insteon only) with Z-Wave Plus (you guys saved my butt on the Z-Wave old switches). P.S. I have found a way to save PLMs. They seem to have a high sensitivity to surges, voltage changes and heat. I put my PLMs on a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) with a small extension cable to keep the heat away. This makes them bad for wireline communication but with Dual Band only installs in does not seem to matter. They seem to last now that I do this. I also always put my ISY on a UPS as well; they almost never fail. I always try to center the PLM in the home; even if I have to run the cables to do it.
dbc55438 Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 Looks like I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'll throw in my two cents: I upgraded my ISY994I with the ZWave card, and it has worked just fine. I am slowly swapping out my Insteon devices with ZWave - perhaps not so slowly as I'm replacing failing Insteon with the ZWave. It seems like the Insteon devices somehow know when their warranty is up - I've had seven Insteon devices fail over time. It took a bit for me to understand how ZWave communications and controls differ from Insteon, but for my purposes they both work fine. (Zigbee is a whole different thing). I like having some competition from the manufactures to drive quality and price competitiveness. I will definitely use the information in this thread - I was not aware of the instant reporting that was available in some devices. Thanks Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
paulbates Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 P.S. I have found a way to save PLMs. They seem to have a high sensitivity to surges, voltage changes and heat. I put my PLMs on a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) with a small extension cable to keep the heat away. This makes them bad for wireline communication but with Dual Band only installs in does not seem to matter. They seem to last now that I do this. I also always put my ISY on a UPS as well; they almost never fail. I always try to center the PLM in the home; even if I have to run the cables to do it. Yep. Another recommendation for any HA technology that touches power; a basic whole-house surge protector in the panel. Surges and/or noisy power, to your point, seem to be the culprit. I'm on year 3 of my PLM (bought "refurbished) and ISY. I also had a USB PLM for about 4 years on HomeSeer and sold it, still working, when I migrated to the ISY. My surge protector is on year 16, its averaged out to $16/year including installation. My suppressor does not interfere with powerline communications. Paul
asbril Posted July 6, 2017 Posted July 6, 2017 Thank You for all the amazing input here. It sounds like I will try a full house (I have done hundreds of houses with Insteon only) with Z-Wave Plus (you guys saved my butt on the Z-Wave old switches). P.S. I have found a way to save PLMs. They seem to have a high sensitivity to surges, voltage changes and heat. I put my PLMs on a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply) with a small extension cable to keep the heat away. This makes them bad for wireline communication but with Dual Band only installs in does not seem to matter. They seem to last now that I do this. I also always put my ISY on a UPS as well; they almost never fail. I always try to center the PLM in the home; even if I have to run the cables to do it. For my old Zwave switches that do not have Instant Status Reporting, I have developed a Program that queries those switches every 15 minutes (you can choose any interval that you want).
stusviews Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 I use a lot of Insteon 6 and 8-button keypads, more so than SwitchLincs. Any Z-Wave equivalent devices?
paulbates Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 I use a lot of Insteon 6 and 8-button keypads, more so than SwitchLincs. Any Z-Wave equivalent devices? +1 Keypads are a big one for me, too. I found a 4 button leviton, but it looks lot like a retread of their original x10 4 button transmitters. $Pricey$, even by keypadlinc standards. While the leviton x10 switches were always advanced feature wise, I don't know if they support status.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 lilioyo, I fully respect your preference and I know that others also prefer Insteon over Zwave. As you say, both work fine and whatever you are comfortable with is good. What I, personally, do not like about Insteon is that the PLM's break down after some (relatively short) time, and you depend on one sole manufacturer. Time will tell but my bet is that Zwave has a better chance of compatibility with multi-system hubs and new evolving technologies. With regard to Cooper switches, I found it annoying that the sentinel light on Cooper switches is ON when the switch is set ON while most other switches have the sentinel lights ON when switch is set OFF, which is useful in the dark at night. Furthermore, if you use switches from different manufacturers, it can be confusing with different meanings of the sentinel lights. I have some 30 Zwave switches and my experience is that the Homeseer switches are the best. Luckily I have not had PLM issues like others have so my experience with it would be different. I however do keep a backup just in case something happens. Of course having to spend any money on something sucks. With that said, if mine did break every 2-3 years oh well. The benefits of using insteon far outweighs that one issue. Especially since it is easily remedied. In the end, its 80 bucks. I spend more than that going out with the fellows or dinner with the Mrs. Hell, she probably spends that on starbucks in a month. I would rather deal with a plm dying every 2 years than the hodge podge of devices which is zwave. With Insteon, I know what I am getting, how it works, and its features. I don't have to check to see what firmware something is running, what zwave features are implemented by any given mfg. or getting them to talk to each other and at what speed. I dont use cooper switches. I have the outlets. I have my lights set to off as they are not needed. The couple of zwave switches I have are in closets for testing and those are leviton.
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