Detecting Scene control for program

[MrBill]

Gas Fireplaces is the topic.  I almost have this working the way I want it to, except one detail that I can't seem to work out.

 

Prior to yesterday, it was a simple manually controlled scene.  Each fireplace has one 2635-222 on/off module that powers a relay with a 120v coil.  Each 2635-222 belongs to an scene, along with 2 KPL buttons, all 3 devices are controllers.  Works great.

 

Habits formed, my wife almost always uses the KPL buttons, I most always use the scene on the mobilinc dashboard or today screen to control.

 

I've always had on my list to automate the fireplaces based on room temperature but had trouble finding the best temperature sensing device for the project.  This forum introduced me to CAO wireless tags and I ordered and received this week.  What a wonderful product!!  (I will say that although this product doesn't have a cloud dependency in the sense that it requires portal etc to work, it does have a cloud dependency in that if the company ever ceases to exist the product will no longer work without its cloud.  It's also scary that the tag manager has the ability to generate http calls on the local network based on what the cloud servers instruction......)

 

((Off-topic: I always knew I hated the way our deep freeze keeps food, I never realized the REASON. The CAO tag tells the WHOLE STORY, every hour the temp variation inside the freezer is almost 15 degrees!! Time to buy a better freezer!!))

 

Anyway enough back-story and side-story...back to the topic... fireplaces:

 

As mentioned, with habits already formed I thought that I would build new control programs based on those.  A few quick programs and everything works exactly as expected.  EXCEPT one thing, controlling the scene from mobilinc.

 

(Current programs included at the bottom of this post).

 

• If the scene is turned "on" from the KPL button, The scene is turned on, and the "cycle" variable gets set, when temp is reached ONLY the on/off module is cycled off and on based on temp, the scene (and button backlights) stay on. 
• If the scene is turned "fast-on" from the KPL button, The scene is turned on, and the "cycle" variable doesn't get set. The fireplaces just stay on.
• If the scene is turned "off" or "fast-off" via the KPL, then the scene is off and the variable is reset so that it won't come back on as the temp falls.

This all works great.  The problem is it only all works great when controlled via the KPL buttons, if I pull Mobilinc out of my pocket and turn on the fireplace scene (my habit), the cycle variable never gets set because it is triggered via "control" of the KPL buttons.

 

So what's the best way to control this logic via Mobilinc--with a single button on the mobilinc dashboard?  (I know that I can create programs and migrate to TWO "buttons" on the mobilinc dashboard--one for on and one for off. I resist that tho because the scene status is not as apparent, and because it's two buttons.  I'm looking for a solution with one dashboard button, like this:

 

However there is no "control" (or "status" for that matter) that allows for capturing scene control via an IF statement of a program.

 

Suggestions?  Thanks...

===================================================================================
Fireplace-Downstairs - [ID 007C][Parent 0001]

Folder Conditions for 'Fireplace-Downstairs'

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')
 
Then
   Allow the programs in this folder to run.
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fireplace-cycle off - [ID 0078][Parent 007C]

If
        $FLAG.DownstairsFireplace.cycle is 1
    And $DownFireplace.temp >= $DownstairsFireplace.setpoint
 
Then
        Set 'DN Fireplace#' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fireplace-cycle on - [ID 0079][Parent 007C]

If
        $FLAG.DownstairsFireplace.cycle is 1
    And $DownFireplace.temp < $DownstairsFireplace.setpoint
 
Then
        Set 'DN Fireplace#' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fireplace-Downstairs-off - [ID 007B][Parent 007C]

If
        Control 'DN Back Door Recessed+# / Fireplace Downstairs' is switched Off
     Or Control 'DN Back Door Recessed+# / Fireplace Downstairs' is switched Fast Off
     Or Control 'OUT Lower Fans - High / DN Fireplace' is switched Off
     Or Control 'OUT Lower Fans - High / DN Fireplace' is switched Fast Off
 
Then
        $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 0
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fireplace-Downstairs-on - [ID 007A][Parent 007C]

If
        Control 'Living Room Fan Lights+ / Fireplace' is switched On
     Or Control 'DN Back Door Recessed+# / Fireplace Downstairs' is switched On
 
Then
        $FLAG.DownstairsFireplace.cycle  = 1
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GlowingHair]

So far in my experience, "status" has been following "control" for my use cases (where I need to catch what is happening however it is happening) so maybe adding a status check would solve the issue.

 

Glas the tags are working out for you. I, too, was pleasantly surprised. And have the same hopes that they stay in business at least as long as I live. 

[MrBill]

So far in my experience, "status" has been following "control" for my use cases (where I need to catch what is happening however it is happening) so maybe adding a status check would solve the issue.

 

Glas the tags are working out for you. I, too, was pleasantly surprised. And have the same hopes that they stay in business at least as long as I live. 

 

 

Well you solved this in one post, after I've been thinking about it for 24 hours....

 

The reply I was typing said "but there is a no status (or control) for a "scene" ....

 

BUT....as I was typing that sentence I wondered to myself..."HMMM, is it possible to check the "status" of a KPL button in a program.  In fact, thats the answer--the scene status can be determined by the status of KPL buttons that is a controller in the scene.

 

(actually I have used "status" of the on/off module itself in another program that makes certain the ceiling fans are running.. but i hadn't considered the "status" of the KPL buttons)

 

thanks!

[MrBill]

Actually I spoke too soon....

 

STATUS is NOT off ... correctly works for the KPL button turning on and set the cycle variable to 1

 

however

 

STATUS is off doesn't work to detect off and set the cycle variable to 0

 

 

weird...

[GlowingHair]

What about the status of the actual device being controlled, the on/off module? Not ideal drilling down to that level, but maybe try whatever works within the system.

[MrBill]

What about the status of the actual device being controlled, the on/off module? Not ideal drilling down to that level, but maybe try whatever works within the system.

 

That won't work... it's being cycled via cycle off and cycle on programs (it's a responder rather than controller in the scene) what we are trying to trigger in the "Off" program that sets $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 0 -- which then prevents the cycle programs from running...

[MrBill]

A better restatement of the problem:

 

Start with everything off... module, scene, buttons, and $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 0  (a.k.a. the OFF state)

 

We press either KPL button... the scene turns on, the module turns on (the flame lights immediately), because the of that, the program "Fireplace downstairs on" runs and set's $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 1.

 

This enables the "Fireplace-Cycle off" and "Fireplace-Cycle on" because $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 1.  Those programs cycle the module alone on/off based on the temp of the room.  All the while the scene (and KPL buttons) stay ON... indicating the system is ON, even if the fire is currently in an off state due to temp....

 

When the scene is turned off via a KPL button, the scene returns to the off state, and $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 0 again, which stops the cycling.

 

This all works perfectly, until the scene gets turned on or off via mobilinc.  AS discovered above, it appears the this can be half solved:  From the Off state of the system, STATUS is NOT off of a KPL button can be used to set $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 1, but the opposite does NOT work STATUS of KPL button is OFF can't seem to trigger the program to get $FLAG.LivingRmFireplace.cycle  = 0 back to zero.

[Teken]

 

((Off-topic: I always knew I hated the way our deep freeze keeps food, I never realized the REASON. The CAO tag tells the WHOLE STORY, every hour the temp variation inside the freezer is almost 15 degrees!! Time to buy a better freezer!!))

 

 

 

Hello MrBill,

 

TANGENT ALERT:

 

What you're observing is actually normal for a freezer / fridge. What is of prime importance is how long it takes for the temps to increase. How long the (run time) number of cycle it takes to achieve the defined temperature. On the surface one would think both would be the same from loss to cooling ~ they are not! A loss of temperature is directly related to the amount, type, and method of insulation and sealing.

 

Cooling (Cycle Time) comes down to the method employed by the hardware appliance manufacture.

 

IE. Coils on the side, top, bottom, in the holding trays. The volume of the unit, type of food, and outside ambient temperatures.

 

Unless physical space is at a premium in the home neither a fridge or freezer should ever be placed outside or in a garage. For every 2 degree's above 70'F will increase the run time & cycles from a few minutes to hours. Also, a empty freezer will lose temperature faster, a freezer that is 50% full will take longer, a freezer 100% full will of course take much longer.

 

This is why its imperative to load the freezer with bottles of water / freezer packs. This offers not only stable temperatures, but reduced run time, cycles, and in case of an electrical outage. More time to keep the food cold while you resolve the issues.

 

Lastly, 0'F is called out by lots of people in the Interwebs. I've found in my personal real world testing the ideal balance of energy consumption, safe (long term) food storage, and stable temps is -5 to -10'F. Setting your freezer below that value is a waste of energy and impacts the foods taste, color, and Vietminh content.   

 

TANGENT END . . .  

[lilyoyo1]

I would write a program based on the control of the 2635 pretty much the same way you wrote it for the kpl. Instead of using the scene you would simply control the device from the app. You could then write a program that turns on the kpl button based on the status of the 2635 changing

[MrBill]

 

 

TANGENT ALERT:

 

 

 

This freezer shows more what I would expect to see....  a 5 degree temperature variation over a slightly wider (per cycle) time period. 

 

(All that IS hard to digest because the graphs auto-scale... it's very difficult to compare graph A and graph B because the scales (may) change based on data.)

 

in the FIRST example... the temp delta is almost 14 degree's over a shorter 45 minute cycle.. it really explains why icing occurs if there is ANY air in the package. The freezer is in an unfinished basement room, no direct sunlight..It full of dense food, but nowhere near packed to the point that air circulation is any sort of issue.

 

I actually have 7 tags in refrigerators and freezers, all behave about as I would expect... Except the name brand (but I think on the low end of the product line) freezer that had a rebate from the power company for purchasing it...lol 

 

My son has a freezer in his garage... not only is it not healthy for it to sit in heat it creates more heat in the space.. it also doesn't help that the only time the coils ever get cleaned is if I notice them and just do it...

I

[Teken]

This freezer shows more what I would expect to see....  a 5 degree temperature variation over a slightly wider (per cycle) time period. 

 

(All that IS hard to digest because the graphs auto-scale... it's very difficult to compare graph A and graph B because the scales (may) change based on data.)

 

in the FIRST example... the temp delta is almost 14 degree's over a shorter 45 minute cycle.. it really explains why icing occurs if there is ANY air in the package. The freezer is in an unfinished basement room, no direct sunlight..It full of dense food, but nowhere near packed to the point that air circulation is any sort of issue.

 

I actually have 7 tags in refrigerators and freezers, all behave about as I would expect... Except the name brand (but I think on the low end of the product line) freezer that had a rebate from the power company for purchasing it...lol 

 

My son has a freezer in his garage... not only is it not healthy for it to sit in heat it creates more heat in the space.. it also doesn't help that the only time the coils ever get cleaned is if I notice them and just do it...

I

 

What is the reason the two freezers are set to different cooling points? Icing / frost build up is primary due to the amount of humidity (moisture) that is allowed to enter the interior. Opening and closing the door and how long the door remains open contribute to this also. Also keep in mind the method and installation of the measurement tool will add / subtract from the recorded value.

 

IE. If the sensor is directly placed on a frozen item this will give you one measurement. Placing the sensor inside of a substrate material like sand / beads will reduce and offset immediate temp drops. Suspending the sensor in *Free Air* will offer immediate and instant air temperature readings. From a purely diagnostic and *Nerd* view point I use all three methods to measure the environment.

 

Going this route will ensure when there is a hardware failure you will absolutely know how the food stuff is performing.  

[MrBill]

I would write a program based on the control of the 2635 pretty much the same way you wrote it for the kpl. Instead of using the scene you would simply control the device from the app. You could then write a program that turns on the kpl button based on the status of the 2635 changing

 

Actually that sounds like how I had this visualized as working at one point.  Then I kinda stumbled into how I did it, It actually works great, and i think for the most part is better with the added advantage of instant on/off from the KPL's and the fact that the scene would still work manually if the ISY is gone or not working). 

 

[i could always work around the issue if I was home, however a design consideration is always how the system could/might fail if I was out of town and my wife tried to turn on the fire, for example.  Because the scene remains intact under my method it would still work if programs didn't.. a better situation than my wife reporting...THERE WAS NO WAY IN HELL TO MAKE THE FIRE COME ON LAST NIGHT...]

 

The only part that doesn't work is changing scene status via mobilinc (or the admin console but I don't care about that).... I'm surprised there is not a if STATUS "scene"...  or CONTROL via system/isy...

[MrBill]

What is the reason the two freezers are set to different cooling points? Icing / frost build up is primary due to the amount of humidity (moisture) that is allowed to enter the interior. Opening and closing the door and how long the door remains open contribute to this also. Also keep in mind the method and installation of the measurement tool will add / subtract from the recorded value.

 

IE. If the sensor is directly placed on a frozen item this will give you one measurement. Placing the sensor inside of a substrate material like sand / beads will reduce and offset immediate temp drops. Suspending the sensor in *Free Air* will offer immediate and instant air temperature readings. From a purely diagnostic and *Nerd* view point I use all three methods to measure the environment.

 

Going this route will ensure when there is a hardware failure you will absolutely know how the food stuff is performing.  

 

 

Actually I never knew the real inside temp of any freezer in the house before this point.

 

"Settings" on 3 of the 4 freezers consist of an arbitrary number.. the forth does have a digital control degrees is actually set.

 

The temp sensors are all mounted "almost" suspended in air..that is they have a velco strip mounting, and they are all attached on the ceiling away from air vent flow.

 

The icing occurs on the INSIDE of bags or containers that contain air... factory or food saver sealed vacuum packages (most of it) doesn't show icing inside.  On the other hand, ziplock a steak, squeeze as much air out as possible and freeze it...it will ice crystal inside the bag in no time at all.  I've never understood why until now.  I've always been under the perception this was the coldest best deep freeze in the house.  I'm now learning it's the opposite, wide temp delta's over short time and now that i've maxed out the control, it "averages" closer to zero than the manufactures "suggested" setting of "4" to achieve 0 degree's F. 

 

You did make me think though... moving the sensor around some to see other results... I don't really care about burried in a pile off packages, or a bag of sand) i'm sure that will be more consistent... i do want to find out of the 14 degree surface temp change is real tho.

[Teken]

Actually I never knew the real inside temp of any freezer in the house before this point.

 

"Settings" on 3 of the 4 freezers consist of an arbitrary number.. the forth does have a digital control degrees is actually set.

 

The temp sensors are all mounted "almost" suspended in air..that is they have a velco strip mounting, and they are all attached on the ceiling away from air vent flow.

 

The icing occurs on the INSIDE of bags or containers that contain air... factory or food saver sealed vacuum packages (most of it) doesn't show icing inside.  On the other hand, ziplock a steak, squeeze as much air out as possible and freeze it...it will ice crystal inside the bag in no time at all.  I've never understood why until now.  I've always been under the perception this was the coldest best deep freeze in the house.  I'm now learning it's the opposite, wide temp delta's over short time and now that i've maxed out the control, it "averages" closer to zero than the manufactures "suggested" setting of "4" to achieve 0 degree's F. 

 

You did make me think though... moving the sensor around some to see other results... I don't really care about burried in a pile off packages, or a bag of sand) i'm sure that will be more consistent... i do want to find out of the 14 degree surface temp change is real tho.

 

Depending upon how old, type of Freon, If the freezer is operating correctly. A low temp could be as simple as low freon, bad TSAT, bad thermistor, to literally its not insulated well enough. As an aside, the Energy Star program has revamped the methods and requirements to obtain said ratings. 

 

What does this mean to the Average Joe?

 

It means if you buy a 2017 freezer that states X for energy and Y for annual costs. It will be more accurate than what has been offered in previous years. As there were many companies (name who ever) that were scamming and not following the actual guide lines. The one thing I am going to do should the opportunity present itself is to purchase a top loading freezer opposed to a standing unit.

 

Offers a larger margin of long term cooling vs a standing unit . . .

 

Having said that make sure you purchase a quality name brand that has good reviews!! 

[lilyoyo1]

 

Actually that sounds like how I had this visualized as working at one point.  Then I kinda stumbled into how I did it, It actually works great, and i think for the most part is better with the added advantage of instant on/off from the KPL's and the fact that the scene would still work manually if the ISY is gone or not working). 

 

[i could always work around the issue if I was home, however a design consideration is always how the system could/might fail if I was out of town and my wife tried to turn on the fire, for example.  Because the scene remains intact under my method it would still work if programs didn't.. a better situation than my wife reporting...THERE WAS NO WAY IN HELL TO MAKE THE FIRE COME ON LAST NIGHT...]

 

The only part that doesn't work is changing scene status via mobilinc (or the admin console but I don't care about that).... I'm surprised there is not a if STATUS "scene"...  or CONTROL via system/isy...

My method is only for you to control via the app. It is in addition to not a replacement for your current approach

[MrBill]

My method is only for you to control via the app. It is in addition to not a replacement for your current approach

 

I don't understand then. 

 

The 2635 device literally controls the fireplace.  It is cycled with the 2 programs based on temperature.  To manually control that with the app makes no sense to me.   The point of the KPL buttons being lit is so that there is indication the fireplace is "on" (has the capability of cycling), turning off the scene via the KPL stops the temperature based cycling.