Finding under slab piping leaks, continued

[LFMc]

Posted Today, 10:25 AM

Teken, on 13 Nov 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

OK, slap me in the back of the head. If it was under the slab how did you know there was a leak? Was there a obvious loss in water pressure? Thus you went on a leak hunt?


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I don't know what it is, but my wife thinks I and the house are somehow connected.     I notice things going on much quicker than the average home owner. Must be my engineering background. 

 

I noticed the gas hot water heater was cycling faster than normal when I was working near the water heater closet in the garage. It took a day to sink in that something other than I was using too much hot water. So I checked the meter and timed the dial and saw a slow flow with everything turned off in the house. After seeing the previous patches during the remodel after moving in, I thought it might be a sub slab leak. I took off my shoes and walked around til I found a warm spot on the floor. Got out my IR temp probe and it was about 10 d F higher near an interior wall. I walked around to the dining room on the other side of the wall and I could feel the moisture in the carpet and saw the water damage to the built in wood buffet. So about $800 (plumbing bill) later I had a fresh concrete patch in my dinning room floor to match the ones the prior owner left for me. Concrete is porous. 

 

To answer your question, no, there was no obvious water pressure drop as it literally was a tiny pin hole. 

 

Edited: Moved this discussion to an appropriate forum to continue discussion as needed about water pipe leak detection under a slab over earth foundation, i.e. no crawl or basement space.

 

[Teken]

Leon,

 

First thanks for taking the time to move this thread to the coffee forum. Next, just for clarification you have a main copper water pipe that comes from the city and this same pipe runs across the majority of the home? Put another way this pipe enters your home from the outside and runs underneath your entire concrete slab?

[LFMc]

Leon,

 

First thanks for taking the time to move this thread to the coffee forum. Next, just for clarification you have a main copper water pipe that comes from the city and this same pipe runs across the majority of the home? Put another way this pipe enters your home from the outside and runs underneath your entire concrete slab?

 

Yes on all points. 100% copper from the meter on the street to the hot water heater and to all faucets, toilets, etc.  N. Texas has extremely expansive clay soils so the "waffle" foundation literally floats over the top of the soil as it swells and contracts. When done right (engineered post tension foundations using tension cables w/o re-bar) they can last a long time w/o cracking or warping. The plumbing is mostly below grade. 

[Teken]

Yes on all points. 100% copper from the meter on the street to the hot water heater and to all faucets, toilets, etc.  N. Texas has extremely expansive clay soils so the "waffle" foundation literally floats over the top of the soil as it swells and contracts. When done right (engineered post tension foundations using tension cables w/o re-bar) they can last a long time w/o cracking or warping. The plumbing is mostly below grade. 

 

Wow . . .

 

I honestly don't know what the most reasonable solution would be if this was something that was on going. Where I live everyone has a basement so the plumbing runs underneath where its fully accessible and then just goes to the various fixtures. I guess what is kind of throwing me off is it comes across like you have 25~ 50 feet worth of copper pipe that runs across the concrete slab?

 

In my head I'm thinking wouldn't the main water pipe come into the home from where ever and penetrate through the concrete as a short run. Than, the homes internal water pipes would be connected to that main pipe? I guess there are other factors like where the main water line was coming from vs the orientation of the home so that might explain for a longer copper run?!?

 

In my personal experience here in Canada the city tries very hard to make the penetration line as short as possible. It never just comes through the ground and enters the home and goes for dozens of feet under the concrete. 

 

I was very lucky and happy to see when the custom home builder designed our home the main line has  short run and is placed under the stair case in the basement. This out of the way location doesn't intrude into the undeveloped basement at all. I've seen a few home builders where the main water pipe was coming out a open space of the basement!!

 

I have no clue how they would explain to the home owner that space is basically lost space and can't really be used for say a bedroom, office, etc.  

[LFMc]

Yes, lots of copper pipe. Everything runs below the foundation which keeps it from being stolen.      BUT, there are no sweat joints below the foundation, they are above grade, typically in the walls. 

 

I have seen houses re-plumbed and it takes a bunch of wiry small guys I would call tunnel rats digging under homes. Also lots of poorly designed (i.e. cheap) foundations warp and crack and they dig under them (or sometimes through them) to put in pilings after the fact. That type of movement also tends to pop water pipes and plumbing, so pressure checks have to be run to figure out how extensive the damage is. 

 

I think for these reasons PEX is taking over in our area. Its flexible and long lasting. 

[Teken]

Yes, lots of copper pipe. Everything runs below the foundation which keeps it from being stolen.      BUT, there are no sweat joints below the foundation, they are above grade, typically in the walls. 

 

I have seen houses re-plumbed and it takes a bunch of wiry small guys I would call tunnel rats digging under homes. Also lots of poorly designed (i.e. cheap) foundations warp and crack and they dig under them (or sometimes through them) to put in pilings after the fact. That type of movement also tends to pop water pipes and plumbing, so pressure checks have to be run to figure out how extensive the damage is. 

 

I think for these reasons PEX is taking over in our area. Its flexible and long lasting. 

 

Is copper theft still a thing in the Red State?    In our area I would say maybe nine years ago there was a rampant theft of copper. The electrician & plumber would be in and shortly thereafter people would breach the home and strip it all out. I don't pretend to know how much effort that would take to remove all the copper Romex and copper pipe.

 

But, that is some serious effort on the part of the thieves!   

 

We spec'd a type PEX due to the extreme temperatures we see in the north along with all the other positive attributes that come with it. 

[LFMc]

Is copper theft still a thing in the Red State?    In our area I would say maybe nine years ago there was a rampant theft of copper. The electrician & plumber would be in and shortly thereafter people would breach the home and strip it all out. I don't pretend to know how much effort that would take to remove all the copper Romex and copper pipe.

 

But, that is some serious effort on the part of the thieves!   

 

We spec'd a type PEX due to the extreme temperatures we see in the north along with all the other positive attributes that come with it. 

Yep, during the great depression of 2008, when they ran out of copper to steal, they switched to outside AC units. Created a whole new market for AC condenser cages to lock up the outside AC units. 

[Teken]

Yep, during the great depression of 2008, when they ran out of copper to steal, they switched to outside AC units. Created a whole new market for AC condenser cages to lock up the outside AC units. 

 

LOL ~ I only read about that happening in random articles. The fact this was a *Thing* in Texas is pretty humbling to learn.  About six years ago we had something I never expected to see in this hick town and that was some really brazen SOB was removing power lines.

 

In my head I'm thinking *You have a boom truck, you work in the industry* why???

 

Not to be too morbid but I honestly was hoping to read the paper one day that they found some random dude all crispy creamed on the power line!

 

LMAO . . . 

 

Surprisingly, after the five miles of wire was stolen the thefts just stopped.

 

I honestly can't see coming to a metal scrap yard and the company doesn't ask how it is you have miles of power cable??? 

[LFMc]

Today they take ID and photos anyone bringing in scrap to a junk yard (as I call them), now called recycling. 

[Teken]

Leon,

 

So back on point if you repaired that section of copper pipe isn't there now at least two sections which are sweat / soldered joints? One was from the past owner and now you?

[LFMc]

Yep, can't avoid that. There were too many of them (plumbers and diggers) gathered around the hole in my foundation to tell if they used any protection over the sweat joint. 

Hey Teken,

 

I am getting up to speed on RPi. Can you hook more than one, 1-wire sensor to a RPi?  Not to change the topic, but I thought I would ask since I started it. (-;

[Teken]

Yep, can't avoid that. There were too many of them (plumbers and diggers) gathered around the hole in my foundation to tell if they used any protection over the sweat joint. 

Hey Teken,

 

I am getting up to speed on RPi. Can you hook more than one, 1-wire sensor to a RPi?  Not to change the topic, but I thought I would ask since I started it. (-;

 

That's just crazy ~ Lucky it doesn't get very cold in Texas!

[apostolakisl]

I live in Texas and just built my house 8 years ago.

 

I have pex.

 

However, I did not allow anyything in the foundation except drain lines and floor electric outlets.  All of my water lines run in the ceiling/floor between the first and second floor and branch up or down as needed.  The only exception is my kitchen island, but I had conduit run for those water lines so you can pull the pex out and replace it if there is ever a need.

 

I did have a pex fitting fail and leak in a wall.  The kind of fittings they used have a metal band that is crimped with a special tool and it looks to me like the person who made the crimp didn't do it correctly and the band broke.  I have not had any other pex failures.  I have not heard of any reason to fear pex long term.  It would seem that pex has been in common use now for at least 15 years, so it looks pretty reasonable for the long term.  There are obvious situations where pex has been exposed to things that it shouldn't and fails.  But regular potable water and nothing caustic on the outside of it seems to mean it lasts indefinitely.  Obviously it will not last forever, but I expect it will last longer than I do.

 

I do not live in the clay parts of Texas.  I live on limestone.  I have a standard re-bar foundation.  No basement of course.  Digging a hole in limestone is something that is generally avoided if possible.

[Teken]

The only copper in my home is from the city main line and (Approx) 18" of copper that terminates outside to the two exterior facets. One is for the backyard and the other is to the attached garage. Both have manual shut off handles and a drain port to ensure the line is free of water during our arctic winters. Both lines are monitored by my 1-Wire network for temperature and they have several freeze alert programs watching for a out of band temperature extreme.

 

For the back yard line if such a condition is detected a heat tape is brought on line to ensure there is zero chance of a breach in the line.

 

Thankfully, the program has never run in the last nine years and a quick cut of insulation foam at the outer tap has helped keep that portion somewhat protected. I've considered making a little hat for the backyard facet using a insulated tennis ball.

 

But so far that's really low on the WAF / GF scale . . .

 

Too red neck?!? 

[LFMc]

I live in Texas and just built my house 8 years ago.

 

I have pex.

 

However, I did not allow anyything in the foundation except drain lines and floor electric outlets.  All of my water lines run in the ceiling/floor between the first and second floor and branch up or down as needed.  The only exception is my kitchen island, but I had conduit run for those water lines so you can pull the pex out and replace it if there is ever a need.

 

I did have a pex fitting fail and leak in a wall.  The kind of fittings they used have a metal band that is crimped with a special tool and it looks to me like the person who made the crimp didn't do it correctly and the band broke.  I have not had any other pex failures.  I have not heard of any reason to fear pex long term.  It would seem that pex has been in common use now for at least 15 years, so it looks pretty reasonable for the long term.  There are obvious situations where pex has been exposed to things that it shouldn't and fails.  But regular potable water and nothing caustic on the outside of it seems to mean it lasts indefinitely.  Obviously it will not last forever, but I expect it will last longer than I do.

 

I do not live in the clay parts of Texas.  I live on limestone.  I have a standard re-bar foundation.  No basement of course.  Digging a hole in limestone is something that is generally avoided if possible.

Yeah, building a house on a rock foundation is biblical!  The rock in Dallas, if you can get to it, is caliche rock. It is soft and just a few million years away from being limestone. 

 

Between floors is good, if you have a second floor, other than if you hear the water running when someone is using it. 

 

Plastic pipe was tried in the 70's down in Houston and they put it in the ceiling (no freezing weather). But then it started degrading, leaking and the lawyers got involved. That was a huge mess. it took down several companies. The pipe was polybutylene. 

[apostolakisl]

Yeah, building a house on a rock foundation is biblical!  The rock in Dallas, if you can get to it, is caliche rock. It is soft and just a few million years away from being limestone. 

 

Between floors is good, if you have a second floor, other than if you hear the water running when someone is using it. 

 

Plastic pipe was tried in the 70's down in Houston and they put it in the ceiling (no freezing weather). But then it started degrading, leaking and the lawyers got involved. That was a huge mess. it took down several companies. The pipe was polybutylene. 

You can't hear any water running in the pex at all.  It is completely silent.  I suppose if you put your ear right on it, maybe, haven't tried.

 

I can hear water in a drain line from one upstairs bathroom.  Mostly it is the toilet flush.  The sink and shower make a little noise.  I should have had that drain line done in cast iron.  Oh well.  Oddly, none of the other upstairs bathrooms drain lines can be hear at all.  Not sure what the difference is.

 

And we have caliche as well.  The caliche and limestone will run in layers.  Just depends on the exact location.  Limestone is pretty stable, but it isn't like granite bedrock or anything.  Which is good, can you imagine what it would cost to have that removed.

[Teken]

Guess piles wouldn't be needed in those locations like mine.

[LFMc]

Guess piles wouldn't be needed in those locations like mine. ☹

 

 

 

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LMAO. those are some serious pilings.

 

They need those in Houston to stay above the water.

[Teken]

LMAO. those are some serious pilings.

 

They need those in Houston to stay above the water.

 

Yeah, it was $10K extra I wasn't expecting to be spending when the home was being designed. That money was initially ear marked for lots of infrastructure hardware that got pushed later down the line.       I was super pissed off at the time but when I was on site with the excavator guy and the frost line broke 12 feet. I caved and spent the money for the piles because I didn't want my house to shift and sink from the extreme thaw / freeze we see here.

 

I've lived in lots of parts of North America and can't honestly say breaking 3~4 feet of frost line is something not very common. Seeing the frost line at 12 feet was just not believable to me but when you see the bucket literally stuck in clay which is frozen solid and harder than steel.

 

You just say *Here's the cheque take my money*  . . .      

[LFMc]

Yeah, it was $10K extra I wasn't expecting to be spending when the home was being designed. That money was initially ear marked for lots of infrastructure hardware that got pushed later down the line.       I was super pissed off at the time but when I was on site with the excavator guy and the frost line broke 12 feet. I caved and spent the money for the piles because I didn't want my house to shift and sink from the extreme thaw / freeze we see here.

 

I've lived in lots of parts of North America and can't honestly say breaking 3~4 feet of frost line is something not very common. Seeing the frost line at 12 feet was just not believable to me but when you see the bucket literally stuck in clay which is frozen solid and harder than steel.

 

You just say *Here's the cheque take my money*  . . .      

You know that when the U.S. built the Alaska pipeline, they floated the pipeline stanchions above the permafrost by putting passive heat exchangers under them to keep the PF frozen so the hotter oil wouldn't defrost it?   Wouldn't that be cool, a house surrounded by heat pipes sticking up out of the ground?

 

Somebody had to live in Canada, I am just glad it was the Canadians.   

[Teken]

You know that when the U.S. built the Alaska pipeline, they floated the pipeline stanchions above the permafrost by putting passive heat exchangers under them to keep the PF frozen so the hotter oil wouldn't defrost it? Wouldn't that be cool, a house surrounded by heat pipes sticking up out of the ground?

 

Somebody had to live in Canada, I am just glad it was the Canadians.

LMAO . . .

 

Well, what I can say about living in this part of the world is that the people and technology is Arctic proven. Anything that lasts more than five years and operates in sub zero temperatures for 8~9 months of the year in below freezing temps is a *Lifetime Buy* in my books.

 

If something is going to happen that people don't believe could ~ It will happen here. GF pings me and says she can't plug the car in for the block heater. Where she works the parkade doesn't have lights. Given it was 5:00 AM in the dead of winter it was pretty dark.

 

I told her don't worry about plugin the car today until I can check it. She comes back and I check the plug and this is what I find.

[lilyoyo1]

Here in Charlotte, we mostly use slabs too due to the dirt. You'll find some basements if the house is built into a hill and sometimes a crawl space but the majority is slab. Our pipes run under ground as well. They still steal copper here. Thats part of why I chose pex (along with cost)

[lilyoyo1]

LMAO . . .

 

Well, what I can say about living in this part of the world is that the people and technology is Arctic proven. Anything that lasts more than five years and operates in sub zero temperatures for 8~9 months of the year in below freezing temps is a *Lifetime Buy* in my books.

 

If something is going to happen that people don't believe could ~ It will happen here. GF pings me and says she can't plug the car in for the block heater. Where she works the parkade doesn't have lights. Given it was 5:00 AM in the dead of winter it was pretty dark.

 

I told her don't worry about plugin the car today until I can check it. She comes back and I check the plug and this is what I find.

 

Yeah it's not cold out here . . .

 

You can have all that. There is no way I would live there

[stusviews]

Somebody had to live in Canada, I am just glad it was the Canadians.   

 

Then came the Vikings, followed centuries later by the English and French. Unlike their neighbor, the merging was generally peaceful. Well, maybe a few skirmishes. The squabbles between the latter two groups is more heated now

[LFMc]

Teken,

 

You think that is bad? My wife goes shopping at Wholefoods a while back. She comes home and tells me that they sell so much Extra Virgin Olive Oil there they have two drive up pumps you can pull up to in the parking lot and fill up your olive oil jug. 

 

I asked her, how do you know this?

 

She said there were two signs with a hose hanging on each one in the parking lot. The sign said "EVO" on it. 

 

She was a bit miffed when I asked her if it if it might stand for "Electric Vehicle Outlet". 

 

LMAO. We still laugh about that one. She's a good sport.