Strange problem -- Looking for ideas

[jrainey]

****** Edit added by Jrainey on Jan 18, 2018

******

****** Please note that this problem and all of the symptoms were finally resolved by replacing a 7 year old PLM.

****** If you are reading this topic because you are experiencing similar strange behavior you may want to read more

****** of this topic and check out PLM issues in other topics in the forum

******

****** Jack 

 

 

 

Hello forum,

 

I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to troubleshoot a problem that appeared in my system a number of weeks ago.

 

We have programmed our kitchen sink light to remain on through the night, acting in essence as a night light.  It is programmed to shut off in the morning, at ten minutes after sunrise.

 

A number of weeks ago (after years of running correctly), the light began to remain on after the program had run.  I have observed the following conditions after the program has run:

 

    -The light is on, switch (a 2876SB Icon Relay Switch) is on (i.e the pilot light is off)

    -In admin console, the last run status is correct

    -In admin console, the status of the light shows OFF, until queried

    -In Mobilinc pro, the status of the light is OFF until the actual control page is brought up.

    -The other actions in the program have executed normally

          (the motion sensor programs are disabled for the day, and controlled lights get turned off)

    -when I run the then portion of the program manually, the light goes out

    -the associated scene works correctly every time from the admin console

    -when the program is forced to run by setting the time and observed in console the light goes out

    -the program that turns the light on works correctly every time.

 

 

In my attempts to fix this I have tried the following:

     -Splitting what was a single program for Sunset/Sunrise into two

     -programming the action directly on the device and through a scene

     -modifying the position of the action in the program.

 

This is the current version of the program:

Sunrise - [iD 0044][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Time is Sunrise + 10 minutes

 

Then

        Set Scene 'Kitchen Area / Kitchen Sink Light' Off

        Set Scene 'BedAndbath / MotionSensorControl' Off

        Set Scene 'Outside / Lower Patio Light' Off

        Set Scene 'Outside / Back Patio Light' Off

        Set Scene 'Outside / Deck Light' Off

        Set Scene 'Outside / Front Porch Light' Off

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

My next step will be to replace the switch and try again. 

 

I am wondering if anyone has encountered and solved a similar issue.  

 

I would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to further steps I can take in trying to figure out what is happening here.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Jack

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by jrainey

[paulbates]

Hey Jack, good to hear from you.

 

These things stand out

• The light is on, switch (a 2876SB Icon Relay Switch) is on (i.e the pilot light is off

• In admin console, the last run status is correct

• In admin console, the status of the light shows OFF, until queried
• In Mobilinc pro, the status of the light is OFF until the actual control page is brought up.

Given that its a scene, it can make sense that the admin console (and downstream things that refer to the AC), show things as the ISY believes them to be. This suggests that either the scene command / group cleanup aren't making it to the switch, or, the switch is ignoring it.

• Any other programs running at the same time?
• Have you factory reset the switch and restored it?
• Any chance the settings in the scene or the switch itself have changed

Paul

[jrainey]

Thanks Paul,  good to hear from you.

 

Had not tried a factory reset.  Waited until my wife finished the dishes, then removed from scene, did factory reset, and added back into scene.

 

Now the device is controllable directly, but  not with the scene.  With the scene, it shows the light turning off and on in console, but the light itself is not turning off and on.  Will keep testing,but it looks like I will be changing the switch.

 

BTW, how is the Hydreon doing?

 

Jack 

 

 

[paulbates]

Jack

Ok.. Hope you figure out. Part of me wonders if its the PLM. My experience is that they can fall apart a little bit at a time. Its probably worth looking at the ISY, PLM and Device links.

 

The hydreon has been great!  Just had a forum chat  about it the last couple of days. My water usage / bills have been way down, which is good because our water is expensive. I've had no problems with it. Other than inspecting and wiping it down at the start of the season in march, it gets ignored.

 

I switched out the ezfloras for a rainmachine a 2 seasons ago. The RM does the bulk of active watering, and cuts back zone time based on WX / forecast data. I push a 48 hour "sleep" to it when the hydreon senses enough water, and also determine if my in-the-sun hot zones... also if its rained enough during an active watering cycle.

 

Paul

[jrainey]

I recently retired, and my lawn became a pet project, so water usage is up .. we don't get vry much rainfall her.  

 

On the positive side though, I added a google home.  Now if I want some extra water on the lawn I just say "Hey Google turn on the full cycle" or "turn on zone 2"  

 

Jack

[paulbates]

Cool...the rainmachine has the Alexa skill built in... turn in on the RM's web page, use the Alexa discover, nothing to install.  I used it once to herd a squirrel from one part of the yard to another . 

 

Paul

[Goose66]

I am wondering if anyone has encountered and solved a similar issue.  

 

I would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to further steps I can take in trying to figure out what is happening here.

I have a very similar problem. I have a scene that includes a dozen or so On/Off modules that control my indoor Christmas lights. The scene also has a KPL button as a controller. A program turns the scene On and Off at 7:00 AM and 11:00 PM, respectively. Activating the scene through the ISY turns them all on or off. Using the KPL button turns them all on or off, but it seems like 1 out of 3 mornings at 7:00 am, one or two of them does not turn on. If I walk to the KPL and turn the scene off and then back on, I can get them all to come on, even if I do it at 7:02 am.

 

Now, while I would expect the KPL button to be more reliable, there appears to be nothing about programs that would make them less reliably than other methods of turning on the scene through the ISY (Admin Console, Alexa, Mobilinc, etc.), and the fact that the program runs at 7:00 and 11:00 instead of sunset/sunrise suggests that it's not a problem with colliding with other programs. What I think it all comes down to is that Insteon communication to these On/Off modules is just not that reliable. And the mathematics of the situation makes it more noticeable in the scheduled program run because it runs every day while troubleshooting attempts such as activating the scene through the Admin Console are only done occasionally.

 

In fact, I have precisely the same problem with another scene with outdoor ApplianceLincs that controls my outdoor Christmas lights between sunset - 30 min and 12:00 am. By comparison, my program that turns on and off my outdoor lighting scene containing all KeypadLincs at sunset and sunrise works flawlessly every night, as far as I can tell. 

[ScottAvery]

Funny, I also have noticed an issue with my Christmas Lights not following their schedule.  I used a new dual band On/Off module this year vs the older appliancelinc I have used in the past.  (My wife plugged a vacuum cleaner into one of them!)   I'll probably double up the commands in the timer programs.

[paulbates]

There is one other thing to try, if the device supports it:  'Communication to the PLM'. Its found by right clicking on a device and picking 'Advanced'. If the device supports it, there will be a drop down to pick the number of retries. I have a few devices on the edge of my network that were problems I tried this on.

 

For keypads, you set it by the key which was handy for me.

 

I started with 2 retries and that seemed to solve it. I'm not really sure of the scope of this feature, and the problem was very intermittent... but the problem has gone away. Its easy to try.

 

Paul

Edited December 12, 2017 by paulbates

[oberkc]

Hey, Jack.  If the switch is turning ON to a scene command, but not OFF, I would tend to discount (for now) a faulty switch.  I did not see it asked, but what is the load on the switch?  Can you temporarily remove the load to see if the switch starts responding to scene-off commands?  (I am wondering if the load is causing the communication problem.)

 

I do not believe that this is a programmatic problem.  It sounds like a classic case of the ISY assuming a switch responds, but does not.  

[IndyMike]

Unless something has changed recently:

 

1. The ISY will not request a group cleanup after turning a scene on/off.  There are no retries associated with an ISY scene.  The ISY reports what "it believes" the correct device status is based on the scene command it executed.  While not as reliable, this is very fast and does not encounter issues when stringing multiple scene commands together.
2. A device direct command from the ISY (clicking a device on/off from the device tree) will request a cleanup response and will retry failed communications.
3. A button press (KPL button or switch button) will execute a scene command and request cleanup from each device in the scene.

[Goose66]

 

Unless something has changed recently:

 

1. The ISY will not request a group cleanup after turning a scene on/off.  There are no retries associated with an ISY scene.  The ISY reports what "it believes" the correct device status is based on the scene command it executed.  While not as reliable, this is very fast and does not encounter issues when stringing multiple scene commands together.
2. A device direct command from the ISY (clicking a device on/off from the device tree) will request a cleanup response and will retry failed communications.
3. A button press (KPL button or switch button) will execute a scene command and request cleanup from each device in the scene.

 

I would love to get confirmation from Michel on this because it would explain a lot. I just assumed that the PLM handled scenes the same way as the other Insteon devices, but it makes complete sense that would be up to the ISY and not the PLM (because it is not the same as a PLC or Insteon Hub). It would be possible, under those circumstances as well, for a program's invocation of a scene to be different from a user's invocation of the scene through the Admin Console (although I don't see that listed in Mike's comment).

[paulbates]

IndyMike is right, I forgot that that the ISY does not do group clean ups. Having a controller like the ISY getting dozen or more cleanups back from a very large scene potentially creates a lot of traffic.. around the same time.

 

Paul

[lilyoyo1]

I'm with Oberkc. The fact that the lights turn on makes me think there is something interfering with communication; especially since everything else is working.

 

What kind of bulb are you using in that particular location? You could also trying turning that particular device on/off by itself to see if it works outside of the scene

[jrainey]

Hi all,

 

And thanks for all of the feedback.  Lots to think about.  I'll try to answer the comments and suggestions in order.

 

First, for kingwr, this sounds exactly like the problem I have.  It started off as an intermittent, and became more consistent after I started to investigate. Now it is misbehaving regularly.

 

For Scott, yours sounds like it could be similar in that I believe it is a hardware problem.

 

Paul - unfortunately the 2876 does not have the advanced options, so I am unable to test that.

 

Oberkc - Originally the switch would turn on via the sunset program but would not turn off at sunrise.  Since the factory reset behavior is consistent - the scene will not turn the switch on or off, but the status in console changes when the scene is activated.  I Don't know if I said this before, but the switch operates perfectly from the console when accessed via the ISY device entry.

 

The load is a single 75 watt equivalent led floodlight mounted in a ceiling pot fixture, so say 12 or 13 watts.  I removed the load by unscrewing the bulb and there was no change in behavior.

 

Mike/kingwr/Paul - Interesting discussion . I am unfamiliar with the 'scene cleanup' procedure.  This leads me to wonder where the scenes live.  When I create a simple scene such as this one which has a single device which is both controller and responder where do the components of this scene reside - in the device, the PLM or the ISY and which one resides where?  In Mikes line 3, how does the ISY determine the status of the devices in the scene, and the status of the scene itself when a button is pressed. 

 

lilyoyo1 - I'm with you and oberkc too, I don't think this is a programmatic problem.  Two reasons:

          1) this stuff worked for years with no issues and little or no change to the involved scenes

          2) (news flash) While monitoring the device (not the scene) in console from a laptop i turned the switch on and off,

                 and the device status did not change in the console display

 

So now, I am still wondering where the problem is residing precisely.  Is it the device itself (most likely in my mind), or in the PLM (still a possibility, but at the moment I don't know how to address this)

 

In either case, my next step is to replace the switch.

 

Thanks guys,  will keep you posted.  Will probably change the switch in a couple of days. (I love retirement - nothing is urgent)

 

Jack 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

With it being an older device like it is, I would say swap it as well. You're probably going to spend more time than it's worth troubleshooting it

[jrainey]

Since my last post I have tried a couple of things to see if I can resolve this issue .. again, without success.

 

First - I removed the device from the scene, then deleted the device completely. I then re-added the device, and added it back into the scene. (as controller)  This cured problems with the scene, which was then able to control the switch as normal.  Left things alone, and the light switched on at dusk as normal, but did not switch off the next morning as it should have.    The light was on, and the switch pilot light was off.  In the console, the switch status was showing as off, and only showed the correct status when it was queried.

 

Second:  I replaced the switch with an identical model that I happened to have, after removing it from the scene and configuration.  Added the new switch into the configuration and the scene.  At the same time for test purposes I installed the original misbehaving switch into another location (the walk-in closet) that had not yet gotten an insteon switch, added it to the configuration, created a scene for it, and added it to my SleepTime program, which shuts the lights off at bedtime..  Then waited.  The original misbehaving switch (in the closet) turned off as it should have, the replacement switch behaved identically to the original switch ... i.e it did not shut off in the morning yet showed off in console.

 

Third:  I removed the walk-in closet switch from programming, and moved the kitchen sink light switch out of the SunRise program and into the SleepTime program.  It shut off exactly as it should have.  (much to my wife's consternation, as she wants that light to remain on through the night, and shut off in the morning, particularly if we are away).

 

Fourth:  Removed the kitchen sink light from the SleepTime program, and created a separate program dedicated to turning off that light in the morning.  

 

That's where things stand at the moment.  Waiting to see what happens tomorrow morning.

 

The only thing that I can conclude for sure from all of this is that it was not a hardware issue as I suspected.

 

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and/or suggestions as to what could be the cause and resolution of this problem.  Any Ideas as to what I can check in the various link tables, for example, and, is there any way I can easily wipe and reload the PLM.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Jack

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

Change the connected load to a different type of bulb if possible.

[jrainey]

Thanks lilyoyo1.  I have replaced the LED bulb with a 75 watt incandescent that we saved when we did the original replacement.

 

Just to update everyone on the latest status,  this morning the light was still on, with the switch pilot light off, the console incorrectly showed that the switch was off.  The program showed that it executed at the appropriate time, and that the then portion of the program had executed.

 

When queried, the console updated the status correctly, and I was able to control the light via the scene.

 

The next step, after this test with the incandescent light  will be to change time of the standalone program to an earlier time.

[stusviews]

I've, on occasion, had to re-create an aberrant program to get it to work correctly. Create a copy. Uncheck the original program's Enabled box before doing anything else.

 

 Re-name the original and the copy (optional). Delete all Then statements except the first from the new program (the copy). If that works, then add another (or two) scene each day. Troubleshooting is often tedious.

 

Modifying the original as a shortcut usually won't work.

Edited December 19, 2017 by stusviews

[lilyoyo1]

Thanks lilyoyo1. I have replaced the LED bulb with a 75 watt incandescent that we saved when we did the original replacement.

 

Just to update everyone on the latest status, this morning the light was still on, with the switch pilot light off, the console incorrectly showed that the switch was off. The program showed that it executed at the appropriate time, and that the then portion of the program had executed.

 

When queried, the console updated the status correctly, and I was able to control the light via the scene.

 

The next step, after this test with the incandescent light will be to change time of the standalone program to an earlier time.

Make a test program that lasts for a minute or 2 to see if it works. Maybe there is something on the circuit itself

[jrainey]

Thanks stusviews and lilyoyo1,

 

The incandescent light made no difference.  Same thing this morning ... light on, console status off and normal program run status.

 

Will try to change the program time to near bedtime, and observer what happens.

 

Will put both of your suggestions in the queue

 

Yes, troubleshooting can be exceedingly tedious.

 

Jack

 

[ScottAvery]

Your tests show that the problem is likely noise at the location of the device.  I believe that the Icon predates the current Insteon Protocol so it may not have the most efficient comms to begin with.  Your program design has a lot of simultaneous scene traffic that has no clean up. Is there a reason you do not want to put the device directly into the program and or add a wait and repeat?  This is what others try to overcome comm challenges.  What happens if you turn that one scene off 30 seconds later than the rest?

[jrainey]

Thanks ScottAvery,

 

I have modified the program to execute at 01:00, so that should test it away from other scene traffic tonight. I have, however, modified the program as it is several times, adding and removing waits and changing the location of the line in the program, all to no avail.  The only success I have had is removing the line entirely from the Sunrise program, and placing it in the SleepTime program. That success, and forcing the program to run from elsewhere at other times, like executing the then from console or mobilinc, or setting the time for a minute or two beyond the current time and watching.  In those circumstances it works every time.

 

I am considering replacing the switch with a more up to date model, but I want to continue testing for a while to see if I can isolate the cause.

 

At one point I did access the device directly, but it made no difference.

 

I have taken to using scenes in recent years as a matter of convenience.  If I change the device or add new devices to the scene I don't have to search down every occurrence  and check it out.

 

I am puzzled by this though.  This program ran flawlessly for years.  The only change that might be associated with the problem is that I recently updated my ISY firmware to the latest version.  Unfortunately, I can't definitively say that the problem started with the update.

 

Thanks

 

Jack 

 

 

[oberkc]

I have thought this to be a comms problem from the beginning.  Unfortunately, I have no idea why the comms problem (if, in fact, that is what it is) would be present at one particular time consistently but not another.  I will add, also, that I generally don't experience communication problems as a result of other insteon communications, as you suggest.

 

I am puzzled by this though.​

 

 

As things in the house age, perhaps they are more interfering with insteon comms.  Perhaps insteon devices, themselves, as they age, become more prone to being interfered with.  I continue to believe this to be a programmatic problem.

 

Perhaps a new insteon device may have more sensitive communication ability and may solve your problem.  Certainly, it is not easy trying to find these sources of interference and a new device may be the least painful solution.