Shopping for Z-Wave Controller

[mikek]

I'm just getting into home automation and have settled on a Z-Wave system. I've been comparing Homeseer and Universal Devices, and it seems the stability of the UD hardware is much better. One nagging issue for me is that the Homeseer units are designed primarily for Z-Wave, while the ISY994iZW seems to be an Insteon device with a Z-Wave add-on. If that is the case, then I wonder just how good the Z-Wave side of things is, and how much compromise there is because of the Insteon capability. I think if UD offered a "Z-Wave only" device I would have already pulled the trigger. Maybe my logic is flawed, but I don't like buying hardware with capabilities that I'm sure I will never use. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

[lilyoyo1]

You're on the ISY Forumn so most of your replies will come from fans of the ISY for the ISY. Ditto for homeseer.

 

The best controller is the one that best fits your needs. It comes down to what you are trying to accomplish. Depending on what that is, homeseer nor ISY may not even be the answer. It might be smartthings or fibaro.

 

I've tried many different controllers over the years and haven't found one that can touch the ISY for price and performance. Try out both systems. Whichever you like you keep.

[asbril]

I'm just getting into home automation and have settled on a Z-Wave system. I've been comparing Homeseer and Universal Devices, and it seems the stability of the UD hardware is much better. One nagging issue for me is that the Homeseer units are designed primarily for Z-Wave, while the ISY994iZW seems to be an Insteon device with a Z-Wave add-on. If that is the case, then I wonder just how good the Z-Wave side of things is, and how much compromise there is because of the Insteon capability. I think if UD offered a "Z-Wave only" device I would have already pulled the trigger. Maybe my logic is flawed, but I don't like buying hardware with capabilities that I'm sure I will never use. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

As the other comment points out, the replies that you will get in this forum will mostly from people having Insteon only, or a combination of Insteon and Zwave.

I started with X10, then added Insteon and then added Zwave. That is why I chose ISY. I dropped X10 and Insteon when my PLM stopped working ( a recurring phenomenon for most users) and now have about 60 Zwave devices, controlling my lights, ceiling fans and automatic curtains.

In this forum you will find fans of Insteon, either because they genuinely believe that Insteon is the best, or because they do not want to go through the expense of replacing their Insteon devices for Zwave. Some devices work better in Insteon but the choice is larger in Zwave. One of the advanrtages I personally see in Zwave is that it has been adopted by many manufacturers and this promises a better future over the quasi-monopoly of Insteon,

Now that I did choose ISY, because of my initial need to cover X10, Insteon and Zwave, I must say that UDI's customer service is sublime. Furthermore, the crowd in this forum also gives fantastic help to those (like me) that are more technically challenged than most in this forum.

This being said, as happy as I am with ISY, I keep an eye on Homeseer and one day I want to find out if they are more advanved on Zwave than ISY. What would most interest me, would be whether the more technically-challenged, as I am compared to others, can do more on Homeseer without the skills required in ISY for more advanced requirements (Polyglott, Raspberry, Nodeservers, etc.)

I have seen that Nest is an option with Homeseer, while in ISY including Nest seems to require complicated programming.

[lilyoyo1]

Homeseer has a lot of plugins you can use but many feel incomplete. I'm not a fan of their programming either. With that said, its a great system if you are z wave only (though I'd go with fibaro over homeseer).

[paulbates]

I've used all 3 versions of Homeseer since 2004 and now the ISY for the the last 3 years.  As an FYI, Homeseer supports Insteon extremely well through Mark Sandler's plugin; a pay-for extra that is more than worth it. Conversely, If you don't want insteon with the ISY, you don't have to buy a PLM and every release has FW supporting zwave without insteon.

 

When HS went from 2 - 3, they dropped support for an interface that I had some older yet important vb interface code for. After exploring V3 for a while, I determined it was easier for me to migrate to the ISY than to upgrade everything I had to v3. V3 was arguably better for users starting from scratch, but it was pretty painful for me as a "legacy" user. 

 

To lilyoy's point, neither is bad, they just approach HA from a different technical perspective. It can be broken down simply as follows: 

• The ISY is an appliance first. Some new ISY users that are developers become disillusioned because they want ISY programming environment to offer a full featured language and IDE. The ISY, as a device, is not that; its an event driven controller. The ISY does have an SDK that can support that, but that code must run elsewhere. The ISY has a very simple yet powerful programming language onboard. Most of my HA tasks are fairly straight forward, and the ISY's onboard programs make quick work of that. Also most of my HA is behind the scenes, controller controlled, not tablet or phone screen activated. The ISY excels at that, especially from a productivity perspective, IMO.
   
• If you want customized dashboards and go deep into touchscreen remote control and write customized code to for it, the ISY can do that, but its more Homerseer's suit, IMO. Especially if .net is your sweet-spot. You can run that code along side homeseer on its server if you want.
   
• IMO, homeseer  continues to stretch themselves very, very far and that leads to  support disappointment. If you use the core technologies that most users use, typically you're fine. You can spend time on their forum and decide for yourself.
   
• UDI, on the other hand, does not venture off into things they can't support and are quick to respond to fixes over new features. So the complaints are that new product updates take along time, but things that come out, work. Even as work traveler, I do not worry about leaving town if the ISY will lock up or not. I can't recall that it ever did. If spouse approval factor matters to you, I've found that to be much better on ISY (meaning really no complaints)
  
  Overtime, HA went from "hobby" to "production" for me, and I'm happier in that way on the ISY.

Paul

 

[mwester]

I started with Insteon, spent a lot of money on it -- and I regret doing so.  There doesn't seem to be a future for the Insteon technology (no upgrades to protocol, no new products).

 

I've begun adopting Z-Wave instead, and find that with a few exceptions, the Z-Wave devices are equal or better than the Insteon.  Alas, the ISY is not yet ready for Z-Wave.  I remain hopeful - so even though I've been forced to stand up a Home-Assistant HA solution to handle some of my Z-Wave devices that the ISY does not (yet) handle properly, I keep hoping that one day I'll be able to return to a single-controller solution.  Unfortunately, UDI has no official release timeline, nor committed functionality (and based on comments they've made on these forums, neither do they have any internal timeline; it seems that the next release will be ready when it's ready...).

 

So, I'd very much like to keep a single automation platform and I'd love for that platform to be the ISY -- but for right now, and for Z-Wave, I find I need two solutions, and the associated overhead of syncing the two solutions.

[mikek]

I started with Insteon, spent a lot of money on it -- and I regret doing so.  There doesn't seem to be a future for the Insteon technology (no upgrades to protocol, no new products).

 

I've begun adopting Z-Wave instead, and find that with a few exceptions, the Z-Wave devices are equal or better than the Insteon.  Alas, the ISY is not yet ready for Z-Wave.  I remain hopeful - so even though I've been forced to stand up a Home-Assistant HA solution to handle some of my Z-Wave devices that the ISY does not (yet) handle properly, I keep hoping that one day I'll be able to return to a single-controller solution.  Unfortunately, UDI has no official release timeline, nor committed functionality (and based on comments they've made on these forums, neither do they have any internal timeline; it seems that the next release will be ready when it's ready...).

 

So, I'd very much like to keep a single automation platform and I'd love for that platform to be the ISY -- but for right now, and for Z-Wave, I find I need two solutions, and the associated overhead of syncing the two solutions.

Thanks for the reply. Which Z-Wave devices (or types of devices) have you found the ISY unable to handle properly?

[mikek]

I've used all 3 versions of Homeseer since 2004 and now the ISY for the the last 3 years.  As an FYI, Homeseer supports Insteon extremely well through Mark Sandler's plugin; a pay-for extra that is more than worth it. Conversely, If you don't want insteon with the ISY, you don't have to buy a PLM and every release has FW supporting zwave without insteon.

 

When HS went from 2 - 3, they dropped support for an interface that I had some older yet important vb interface code for. After exploring V3 for a while, I determined it was easier for me to migrate to the ISY than to upgrade everything I had to v3. V3 was arguably better for users starting from scratch, but it was pretty painful for me as a "legacy" user. 

 

To lilyoy's point, neither is bad, they just approach HA from a different technical perspective. It can be broken down simply as follows: 

• The ISY is an appliance first. Some new ISY users that are developers become disillusioned because they want ISY programming environment to offer a full featured language and IDE. The ISY, as a device, is not that; its an event driven controller. The ISY does have an SDK that can support that, but that code must run elsewhere. The ISY has a very simple yet powerful programming language onboard. Most of my HA tasks are fairly straight forward, and the ISY's onboard programs make quick work of that. Also most of my HA is behind the scenes, controller controlled, not tablet or phone screen activated. The ISY excels at that, especially from a productivity perspective, IMO.

   

• If you want customized dashboards and go deep into touchscreen remote control and write customized code to for it, the ISY can do that, but its more Homerseer's suit, IMO. Especially if .net is your sweet-spot. You can run that code along side homeseer on its server if you want.

   

• IMO, homeseer  continues to stretch themselves very, very far and that leads to  support disappointment. If you use the core technologies that most users use, typically you're fine. You can spend time on their forum and decide for yourself.

   

• UDI, on the other hand, does not venture off into things they can't support and are quick to respond to fixes over new features. So the complaints are that new product updates take along time, but things that come out, work. Even as work traveler, I do not worry about leaving town if the ISY will lock up or not. I can't recall that it ever did. If spouse approval factor matters to you, I've found that to be much better on ISY (meaning really no complaints)

   

  Overtime, HA went from "hobby" to "production" for me, and I'm happier in that way on the ISY.

Paul

Thanks, Paul. I take it that once you have things configured to your liking, you pretty much leave the ISY alone to do it's thing until you want to make changes. Is that right? Are you controlling any devices with the Agave app or any other remote? If so, how that that functionality fit in with the overall performance?

[mwester]

The common element for me are those devices that use "Hail" instead of "Instant Status" -- the ISY does not support the Hail message.  For me that includes the GE/Jasco Z-Wave devices, but there are many more that do "Hail" as a workaround for the patented "Instant Status" (patent recently expired, thank goodness).  A workaround is to poll the z-wave devices periodically, if the polling delay is acceptable.

 

From others on the forum, the Mimo2 (sp?) device is not fully supported -- I'll be getting a couple of those for another project.  The single-channel device IS supported, so if money is no object, you can just use multiple of the single-channel devices as a work-around.

 

There are numerous other devices that are, at present, partially or incompletely supported -- you'll have to search the forum.  The above are the ones that I personally have used or recently researched.  Note that "partial or incomplete support" is a common theme for controllers of all manufacture when associated with new Z-Wave devices.  It seems that each z-wave device needs special drivers or support on each controller, which is quite problematic IMO.

[lilyoyo1]

That's why I have a problem with zwave over insteon. With Insteon you have basic devices that do exactly what you want and do it well for the most part. With zwave, you have devices full of many different features but needing to spend unnecessary time researching what works and what doesn't. That applies to the device itself and to the controller.

 

I love Insteon for it's simplicity. Their devices are actually capable of more but in the end, I just need things to turn on, off, and dim. The magic is in the programming that I do. I've found the speed at which insteon talks to other insteon devices is faster than zwave devices (though they are getting better).

 

The one thing I like is that you can do both with ISY and homeseer. You get the best of both worlds. I myself prefer Insteon light switches Zwave sensors, and Zwave locks. I do use some zwave outlets to complete my Zwave network for communication.

 

One thing I would say is to be open to using a mixture of things as it will allow you to achieve the best system that you can put together.

[mikek]

That's why I have a problem with zwave over insteon. With Insteon you have basic devices that do exactly what you want and do it well for the most part. With zwave, you have devices full of many different features but needing to spend unnecessary time researching what works and what doesn't. That applies to the device itself and to the controller.

 

I love Insteon for it's simplicity. Their devices are actually capable of more but in the end, I just need things to turn on, off, and dim. The magic is in the programming that I do. I've found the speed at which insteon talks to other insteon devices is faster than zwave devices (though they are getting better).

 

The one thing I like is that you can do both with ISY and homeseer. You get the best of both worlds. I myself prefer Insteon light switches Zwave sensors, and Zwave locks. I do use some zwave outlets to complete my Zwave network for communication.

 

One thing I would say is to be open to using a mixture of things as it will allow you to achieve the best system that you can put together.

When using both Insteon and Z-Wave, from a controller standpoint, are the devices merged into a single system? Or do you have to run two separate device networks side-by-side? Is there a single solution for remote monitoring of the system(s) via phone or tablet or do you need one for Insteon and another for Z-Wave? You make a good point about picking and choosing the strong points of multiple technologies, but I want to make sure I'm not complicating matters too much.

[lilyoyo1]

From the controller they are 1. The communication routed to each device is still separate. For example if you are talking to a zwave switch, you'll need other zwave devices for the signal to reach it.

 

Whatever app you use for your Controllers (let's just say ISY) will control both your zwave and insteon devices. You will not need separate interfaces for them.

 

One thing I've found is that sensors matter alot. When I built my house I put sensors everywhere and for the most part, it's completely automated. I don't have to push buttons unless I choose to. I can't tell you the last time I've opened up an app to control anything.

[lilyoyo1]

One thing that PaulBates and Asbril said that I wholly agree with is the forums. The help that UDI gives as well as members are second to none (I'm on a few different forums). If you stay with the ISY you'll know you'll be taken well good care of.

[asbril]

Thanks for the reply. Which Z-Wave devices (or types of devices) have you found the ISY unable to handle properly?

As I mentioned, I have about 60 Zwave devices, including light and fan switches, motion detectors, open/closed door detectors and since recently Mimo-Lite devices to control my automatic switches. The only issue I ever encountered was with multi-switches such as the Enerwave 7-buttons ( https://www.amazon.com/Enerwave-ZWN-SC7-Controller-7-Button-REQUIRED/dp/B00RY4LP5Y ).and I would not be surprised that these now work in 5.0.X.

The one device that seems to be better in Insteon is the Fanlink allowing dual control of fan and fan lamp. There is no (yet) such dual device in Zwave, requiring separate switches for the fan and for the light. I definitely recommend Zwave.

[dbuss]

When using both Insteon and Z-Wave, from a controller standpoint, are the devices merged into a single system? Or do you have to run two separate device networks side-by-side? Is there a single solution for remote monitoring of the system(s) via phone or tablet or do you need one for Insteon and another for Z-Wave? You make a good point about picking and choosing the strong points of multiple technologies, but I want to make sure I'm not complicating matters tooh.

Z-wave and Insteon have separate networks However, with the programming and scene capabilities of the ISY, you can create programs and scenes using both Z-wave and Insteon. You can also have an Elk alarm system integrated into your ISY.  This gives you the capability to have your Insteon, Z-Wave and Elk all work together. Even though they all have their own separate networks. As others have said, it's important for you to decide what you want to accomplish with home automation. This will help you decide which controller best fits your needs and wants and you will be much happier down the road. For me, Insteon, Z-wave, Elk and ISY work well and I'm very happy with what they can do for me. I also have several Echo devices integrated into my systems.

[paulbates]

Thanks, Paul. I take it that once you have things configured to your liking, you pretty much leave the ISY alone to do it's thing until you want to make changes. Is that right? Are you controlling any devices with the Agave app or any other remote? If so, how that that functionality fit in with the overall performance?

 

MIke - Yes. I view it as there are 2 "camps" in HA

1. Automation means controlling things via tablet phone
2. Automation means abject laziness, and get the technology to do as much as possible on its own <- me

A lot of my lighting control is n-way virtual circuits for key lighting.. and in those cases the ISY was used to program the isnteon scenes to allow the devices to work...no ISY active involvement. In fact they'll work even if the PLM dies. That's all done. I have a handful of programs that see if certain lights on stairs and outside lights left on to long, or a "good night" routine for turning the right lights off when going to bed.

 

After 3 years with the ISY I have the house so close to where I want it that I make very few changes. I have to travel extensively for work, and its been a long time since I had to, or felt the need to, login in the to ISY admin console via the ISY portal. I get reports outs of HVAC and sprinkler activity through pushover messages, but even those have become routine, showing that things are doing what they should. 

 

I own agave and love it, but went through a work related phone upgrade a while back that now gives me an ios device, so currently not using agave. Agave is pretty fast, but mostly I used it with my local network, and if I was remote I wouldn't notice how long it too

 

Paul

[mikek]

As I mentioned, I have about 60 Zwave devices, including light and fan switches, motion detectors, open/closed door detectors and since recently Mimo-Lite devices to control my automatic switches. The only issue I ever encountered was with multi-switches such as the Enerwave 7-buttons ( https://www.amazon.com/Enerwave-ZWN-SC7-Controller-7-Button-REQUIRED/dp/B00RY4LP5Y ).and I would not be surprised that these now work in 5.0.X.

The one device that seems to be better in Insteon is the Fanlink allowing dual control of fan and fan lamp. There is no (yet) such dual device in Zwave, requiring separate switches for the fan and for the light. I definitely recommend Zwave.

In your experiences with all the Z-wave devices, have you found any brands more reliable and/or easier to connect and configure than others? Any experience with the GoControl products, specifically their GC-TBZ48 thermostat? 

[asbril]

In your experiences with all the Z-wave devices, have you found any brands more reliable and/or easier to connect and configure than others? Any experience with the GoControl products, specifically their GC-TBZ48 thermostat? 

I do not have Zwave thermostats as I already had two Nest thermostats in our home. My preference has been to use Homeseer switches. Though  GE's newest switches may also be Zwave Plus, the Homeseer switches have had instant status for a while. Their dimmer switches have little lights to show the dimmer level and their new (not yet out) series 200 dimmer switches will have color lights that also can be used to indicate the status of other devices. I am not sure that this will (yet) work with ISY.

I have used various brands (incl I believe GoControl) for plug-in devices and they all work well, though my preference is for the Inovelli plug-in devices.

So in short go for Homeseer switches and Inovelli plug-in modules.