mikek Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I'm pretty new here and have received a lot of very useful guidance in putting together a Security/HA system. Based on what I've learned so far, I'll be installing an ELK M1 system mainly for motion and door/window sensors. There seems to be almost unanimous agreement that this is the best approach. I've also ordered an ISY with Z-Wave for lighting and such. My next big decision is which way to go with lighting controls. Here's where things get less clear. Although it seems Insteon is generally favored because connectivity is more reliable, it seems to have its fair share of problems. I've read of repeated PLM failures (although I've also heard that the issue has been addressed), short life on switches and dimmers and the possible need for noise filtering. On the Z-Wave side, I haven't heard much in the way of device failures, but there seem to be a fair number of communication issues. I understand the mesh concept, but I certainly don't want to add devices where I don't need them just so I can maintain a reliable network. I suspect some opinions and reviews are naturally based on what the user happens to have at the time, but what if you were just starting out like I am and had not yet made any financial investment into your project? Would you choose Insteon or Z-Wave for your lighting controls? Or something completely different (UPB, one of the Lutron systems, etc.)? As always, thanks very much in advance for your help!
ES1400 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 MikeK You are right in that most users recommend what they have, just as I'm doing here. I've built a full household that runs security with video as well as all the normal household functions from lighting, irrigation controls, GEO fence, Mobilinc, over 70 Insteon devices and one hell of a lot of ISY code (V 4.6.2). While I would like to upgrade to ISY V5 stability is more important to me. The Foscams have given me good service and reliability in general for the price. They are easily controlled via ISY code once you learn the network commands. I have the Foscams moving to different positions depending motion detection from various sensors around the property and different locations if we are home or not. I'm experimenting with Z wave stuff but so far not willing to integrate in my system. Insteon in general work well enough if you learn the work around the inconsistency and defects in the designs. The more Insteon devices you have the stronger the network, however in all networks are subject to electrical noise and issue you must resolve them. example I have digitally controlled pool pumps that interfere with communications and by finally isolating the power resolved the issues. You will need to be very creative in writing ISY code to track, monitor, detect errors and report these issues via Text or E-mail so you are aware of problems and maintenance issues. Additional thought, keep ISY code designs simple and well documented! I hope the summery helps i someway...
oberkc Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Given that you have chosen the ISY-994 (a great decision, in my opinion) you should consider more than the inherent benefits of insteon versus zwave. You should also consider which one works better with your new controller. In my mind, this strongly favors insteon. This may be a reflection of of the relative state of support for each built into the ISY, but I find that there is a bit more capaibility when using insteon. There are other factors...look and feel...availability of certain devices...that may make a specific decisions easier, but I like the abilities available when using the ISY with inseon.
Teken Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Given you will have a Z-Wave enabled controller just buy what ever meets the needs for your home. Insteon where it makes sense like lighting and Z-Wave for locks and TSTAT's. Those rocking a hybrid environment have the best of both worlds . . . The only time this becomes an issue is if visuals are important to you as mixing Insteon & Z-Wave switches just looks ghetto on the same wall.
mwester Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I'd choose z-wave, and forego all Insteon if I had the opportunity to do it all over again. Let's not be blinded by shiny features -- look instead to the future. Does Insteon have a future is the first question to ask. And it's not just about being forced to buy used devices from eBay -- it's about that Insteon PLM that's going to fail every two years... Next thing to consider is to be honest about your "multiple device" concern. Yep, with Z-Wave you are going to have some devices in "silly" places just to complete the mesh. But, what you're not considering with Insteon is all the FilterLinc devices you'll end up needing. Every computer you have will need one. Everything that has a power-brick like your laptop computers have will need one. You may get lucky with your cell phone chargers -- but they may also need to be on a power-strip with a FilterLinc. Your garage door opener will probably need one, if it's one of the newer models. I've found my power tool battery charger (DeWalt) also needs a FilterLinc. Your TV (and DVR, and DVD/Blu Ray, and Audio Amp, etc) will need a FilterLinc. And when you think you're done with those, you'll find that you're going to need to carefully select all your LED bulbs that will be controlled by the Insteon switches (meaning trial and error with lots of trips to your local home store to return the ones that make too much noise for the Insteon switches to turn off once they've been turned on). And finally -- you'll need to wire in an Insteon phase coupler if you don't have RF-capable Insteon devices on just the right plugs in your home to do the job of coupling the two halves of your incoming power. My point is that you're going to have a lot more devices than you might like, regardless of the technology. It's the price of entry. You can bet that price of entry on an uncertain Insteon future, or you can bet that money on hoping that the ISY will do a better job of Z-Wave support in the future. I know which company has publicly stated their direction (UDI), and I for one am betting on that. I mean no ill-will to Insteon -- but it's been stagnant for way too long as a technology, and the new owner has shared no future plans for it with the public... I cannot continue to invest $50/device on that sort of uncertainty.
TrojanHorse Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Maybe I got lucky here with Insteon. I don’t have any communication issues that I’m aware of and I only use 2 FilterLincs on my UPS units. I have several of the devices that mwester mentipns but didn’t need a filter. No phase bridge installed. I have dual band switches throughout the home in plastic boxes. Some boxes have switches that are fed by circuits on different legs of the split, single phase supply (Stu will tell me if this is the wrong terminology ) so that probably helps too. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lilyoyo1 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 A switch is a switch and is generally the backbone of your system. IMO insteon switches look, feel, and work better than zwave switches. Yes, the zwave protocol has many many more features than insteon switches. The thing is, they are all over the board with them that most of those features are not supported. At the end of the day, you're turning a light on, off, or dimming. Needing filters is highly over done at this point. With that said, should there be communication issues at least there is a fix. I have 7 TV's and not a single one has a filter. My brand new kaleidescape system doesn't need a filter. None of the bedroom DVD players need filters. Ditto for my garage doors. I have a few old filters from a long time ago that I have in certain places. Not because I need them.but because I had them from a time when they were needed. Let's be real, if your going to give cons on a device at least give real information. If he's putting in all switches he will have the phases coupled. Can that be an issue with just a couple of insteon devices. Of course. But the same holds true with zwave as well. They may not be in range of one another. Early insteon quality was subpar. Over the years they have improved it. Me personally, I haven't had any issues with insteon longevity. I have taken precautions in all of my homes over the years in regards to surge protection etc. (I protect my TV's and other electronics so why not my switches too). Regardless of technology, I recommend you do the same. My final recommendation would be to go for the best devices that fits your needs. For me it's insteon for lights and Zwave for everything else. Insteon's biggest weakness is sensors (my opinion). When it comes to extra things like irrigation and HVAC, those are not integrated with my ISY. I use the rain machine and ecobee 3. With that said, I live in an environment that uses the HVAC constantly anyway so the level of programming I need is provided by the thermostat itself.
Teken Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 A switch is a switch and is generally the backbone of your system. IMO insteon switches look, feel, and work better than zwave switches. Yes, the zwave protocol has many many more features than insteon switches. The thing is, they are all over the board with them that most of those features are not supported. At the end of the day, you're turning a light on, off, or dimming. Needing filters is highly over done at this point. With that said, should there be communication issues at least there is a fix. I have 7 TV's and not a single one has a filter. My brand new kaleidescape system doesn't need a filter. None of the bedroom DVD players need filters. Ditto for my garage doors. I have a few old filters from a long time ago that I have in certain places. Not because I need them.but because I had them from a time when they were needed. Let's be real, if your going to give cons on a device at least give real information. If he's putting in all switches he will have the phases coupled. Can that be an issue with just a couple of insteon devices. Of course. But the same holds true with zwave as well. They may not be in range of one another. Early insteon quality was subpar. Over the years they have improved it. Me personally, I haven't had any issues with insteon longevity. I have taken precautions in all of my homes over the years in regards to surge protection etc. (I protect my TV's and other electronics so why not my switches too). Regardless of technology, I recommend you do the same. My final recommendation would be to go for the best devices that fits your needs. For me it's insteon for lights and Zwave for everything else. Insteon's biggest weakness is sensors (my opinion). When it comes to extra things like irrigation and HVAC, those are not integrated with my ISY. I use the rain machine and ecobee 3. With that said, I live in an environment that uses the HVAC constantly anyway so the level of programming I need is provided by the thermostat itself. Spot on . . . Every persons environment will be unique and thus will offer different challenges should they arise. In the ideal world the need for any sort of line filtering wouldn't be required. But we all know the world isn't ideal and there are billions of devices made extremely well to sub par. I've never had a passive Signal Linc installed at my service panel. Given the vast majority of Insteon hardware is dual band the need for the signal linc has been reduced. There are always going to be edge cases where this specific device does help such as multiple sub panels. I have exactly two Filter Lincs in use for my Insteon network one of which is for a massive Audio / Video system. The other is on a Panasonic wireless phone system that is under a proof of concept test. Some of the main issues I have with the current batch of Z-Wave products is that not a single vendor follows the spec's or supports all elements of the protocol. This problem is exacerbated by the fact those who make smart controllers also don't support various elements of the Z-Wave protocol. Z-Wave was touted as being open, easy, to integrate for all the reality is it isn't. Proof is by smart controller vendors from the likes of Home Seer, Vera, ISY Series Controller . . . All I know is support for multi- channel for Z-Wave has taken more than two years for UDI. Clearly if the API was that easy to incorporate one would think it would have been offered long ago. Then again the whole concept of routing, neighbors for Z-Wave in my mind is a failed concept. One of the major issues I have with Z-Wave is how controllers can automagically display random nodes a piece of hardware simply can't support. This has never been an issue with Insteon . . . I can tell you its extremely hard to explain to someone at a final install how a X that has hands and feet for months to years. Then one day out of the blue shows up with a nose, tail, and extra head?!?! Having read hundreds of posts about this issue it simply doesn't pass the smell test because the underlying issue is poorly executed protocol. A switch that simply has On, Off, Dim, simply can not have other node elements showing up like energy, light, temperature, sound, pressure, etc. Makes no sense and these issues are simply being hidden by the smart controllers now . . . Lastly, Z-Wave isn't designed for large scale installations as the protocol is by default limited to 232 vs Insteon is unlimited. Z-Wave offers a partial mesh network vs Insteon is full mesh. Z-Wave since inception is not fully backwards compatible with multi vendor hardware this is why the Z-Wave alliance has pushed for rigid standards. Even then it assumes the vendor will support all vs the bare minimum of the spec outlined by the license. Ultimately there are good and bad things with each protocol the beauty of the world is everyone has a choice from: X-10, Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, etc.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Spot on . . . Every persons environment will be unique and thus will offer different challenges should they arise. In the ideal world the need for any sort of line filtering wouldn't be required. But we all know the world isn't ideal and there are billions of devices made extremely well to sub par. I've never had a passive Signal Linc installed at my service panel. Given the vast majority of Insteon hardware is dual band the need for the signal linc has been reduced. There are always going to be edge cases where this specific device does help such as multiple sub panels. I have exactly two Filter Lincs in use for my Insteon network one of which is for a massive Audio / Video system. The other is on a Panasonic wireless phone system that is under a proof of concept test. Some of the main issues I have with the current batch of Z-Wave products is that not a single vendor follows the spec's or supports all elements of the protocol. This problem is exacerbated by the fact those who make smart controllers also don't support various elements of the Z-Wave protocol. Z-Wave was touted as being open, easy, to integrate for all the reality is it isn't. Proof is by smart controller vendors from the likes of Home Seer, Vera, ISY Series Controller . . . All I know is support for multi- channel for Z-Wave has taken more than two years for UDI. Clearly if the API was that easy to incorporate one would think it would have been offered long ago. Then again the whole concept of routing, neighbors for Z-Wave in my mind is a failed concept. One of the major issues I have with Z-Wave is how controllers can automagically display random nodes a piece of hardware simply can't support. This has never been an issue with Insteon . . . I can tell you its extremely hard to explain to someone at a final install how a X that has hands and feet for months to years. Then one day out of the blue shows up with a nose, tail, and extra head?!?! Having read hundreds of posts about this issue it simply doesn't pass the smell test because the underlying issue is poorly executed protocol. A switch that simply has On, Off, Dim, simply can not have other node elements showing up like energy, light, temperature, sound, pressure, etc. Makes no sense and these issues are simply being hidden by the smart controllers now . . . Lastly, Z-Wave isn't designed for large scale installations as the protocol is by default limited to 232 vs Insteon is unlimited. Z-Wave offers a partial mesh network vs Insteon is full mesh. Z-Wave since inception is not fully backwards compatible with multi vendor hardware this is why the Z-Wave alliance has pushed for rigid standards. Even then it assumes the vendor will support all vs the bare minimum of the spec outlined by the license. Ultimately there are good and bad things with each protocol the beauty of the world is everyone has a choice from: X-10, Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, etc. I agree with all your points (damn, it must really be a new year. Lol). What trips me out is everyone blasts insteon for being a single vendor but yet will buy their devices from a single vendor (what's the difference). Reality is no one is buying switches from different places because it would look tacky as hell. My next thing as you said is how innovative they claim zwave to be. Yet their innovations are only catching up to what insteon can do now. People talk about all the features zwave has but most devices either don't have them or controllers don't take advantage of them as you said. This isn't just the ISY but all have differing levels of support for newer features. All are old arguments. Regardless of how advanced and feature right people want zwave to be, they are still switches at the end of the day. They are devices that will turn on, turn off, and dim. How they do it are irrelevant. If a person likes zwave that's great. More power to you. No protocol is perfect. Every single last one of them has a downside. When done properly each one has positives and can work flawlessly providing years of enjoyment.
Teken Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I agree with all your points (damn, it must really be a new year. Lol). What trips me out is everyone blasts insteon for being a single vendor but yet will buy their devices from a single vendor (what's the difference). Reality is no one is buying switches from different places because it would look tacky as hell. My next thing as you said is how innovative they claim zwave to be. Yet their innovations are only catching up to what insteon can do now. People talk about all the features zwave has but most devices either don't have them or controllers don't take advantage of them as you said. This isn't just the ISY but all have differing levels of support for newer features. All are old arguments. Regardless of how advanced and feature right people want zwave to be, they are still switches at the end of the day. They are devices that will turn on, turn off, and dim. How they do it are irrelevant. If a person likes zwave that's great. More power to you. No protocol is perfect. Every single last one of them has a downside. When done properly each one has positives and can work flawlessly providing years of enjoyment. Better stop agreeing with one another 2018 just started!! I honestly thought in 2017 my network would incorporate some Z-Wave but that never happen due to many of the things I touched upon. There have been a slow uptick in terms of look and feel for some Z-Wave switches. The latest Home Seer that has that multi color LED has promise and over all it looks to be solid. The others honestly look and feel like dollar store hardware. Every time I see a Z-Wave plugin module I have this impulse to barf in my throat. Regardless, as I have noted before what Insteon needs to do is get on to the energy monitoring / energy management train along with true encryption. The Z-Wave camp is all over this and believe 2018 and beyond will continue to lead the way in these three important areas. As you noted also this whole *Instant Status* where many still don't support it just makes no sense in any install. The fact people by into the band aid of polling a device to determine its state really makes me shake my head.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Energy management isn't on my list of needs with insteon. If I were to ever get into that (highly doubtful) I would go with a panel based 3rd party solution. I can see where people might want it so I'm not opposed. Just for me personally, it's not needed. Ditto for encrypted devices. If insteon wants to have secure devices such as locks, thermostats, alarm, then I see the greater need. For now, the need is only for consumers to feel good about what they are doing. My controller otoh is a different story. Im not a fan of zwave for all the reasons we've mentioned throughout time. I did invest because there are some innovative designs (you already know fibaro is my favorite) and I like the locks.
RRoyceus Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 I am nowhere near the expert the other posters are, but I have used home automation since rhe X10 days. Currently my home has an ISY, a Smartthings Hub, many Amazon Echos and Dts, an Autelis Pool Control, a Rachio irrigation system, a PHin pool monitor, a Harmony controller, and a Global Cache. Most are connected to the ISY using network resources. What I can’t control with the ISY, I can with Alexa. I have one $10 Sengled Zigbee build connected to the SmartThings Hub, hoping to figure out a way to bridge it into the ISY Hub to open the door to Zigbee. So I can say, as long as you have a want or need to control something, keep an open mind and pick what fits your need and your pocket book. I started with X10 & A10 and a table top controller. At the time it filled my needs. I constantly had to search and find line noise problems. Bridging the phases was problem. Next I added an ISY and started adding Insteon switches. Still had some noise problems, but they got fewer. At one time, I had 4 ISY, one at my main house, one at my office, and two at weekend homes. At my current main house I went all Insteon, no more X10. So far no bridge and one filterlinc. I have found it easier to install a light switch where I really don’t need one to improve the network. So, I am an Insteon fan. BUT! Because the new motion sensors do not work with the ISY because it appears Smarthome will not help with the code, cost and dismal life of Insteon bulbs, discontinuing the Morninglinc lock controller, the sale of Smarthome, and using network resources to incorporate other devices, I recently started looking at and buying some Z-Wave devices. I am impressed with what I have found. An outdoor module with 2 controllable outlets. A power switch with 4 controllable outlets. A power outlet for my shop window unit with a power monitor. The more I look, the more Z-Wave devices I find. My current project is to use the inexpensive Z-Wave bulbs and re-wiring the Insteon switches to be only a controller for the bulbs. I tell my sales people, some people like red cars, some like blue, some buy what the dealer has on sale and is in stock. First rule of selling, find out what color the customer likes, and tell him we sell any color they want. For Home Automation, why does it matter? So, as long as you have the ISY with Z-Wave, buy what you want that fills your needs.
stusviews Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 I've been using Insteon devices since its inception. Except for a very few failures, the only Insteon devices I replaced was voluntary, moving from powerline only to dual-band. Until then, I did have a bunch of FilterLincs, but have since donated them to another long time poster. (who has also posted to this topic). Now, only my computer room and line conditioners are fed through filters for a total of three. In spite of mostly metal wall and ceiling boxes, I have no Insteon Range Extenders. However, I did have to install a few Z-Wave range extenders to make the Z-Wave mesh solid. Some have had problems with FanLinc, I have not. Some have replaced (or repaired) their PLMs. I have not, but I do keep a spare around. Well, I did replace one, but only as a troubleshooting technique and that was quite a bit more than the critical 2 year lifespan. OTOH, I have no difficulty using both Insteon and Z-Wave products. Insteon device, IMO, look and feel like a quality product. And I've been installing electrical wiring and devices for decades. I especially appreciate having custom etched keypad buttons. Being able ti adjust the brightness level of both buttons and SwitchLinc LEDs on the go (i.e., programs) has been a boon for both watching a movie and sleeping or both concurrently for my wife But after the All On phenomenon opened my garage doors a couple of times, I switched from I/O Links to the MIMOLite Z-Wave I/O Contact Bridges. Also, there is no Insteon equivalent for Z-Wave locks. But, there are no Z-Wave replacements for a FanLinc nor an 8-button keypad. So, I'll mention it again. There is nothing for the DIYer that's a elegant for lighting as Insteon. But, there are a few Z-Wave items that vastly outdo Insteon. Hybrid is the way to go!
mikek Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond.
Steigs Posted February 19, 2018 Posted February 19, 2018 On 1/7/2018 at 10:22 AM, ES1400 said: I have digitally controlled pool pumps that interfere with communications and by finally isolating the power resolved the issues. Can I ask what your solution for this was?
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