Congress Votes to Extend Warrantless-Spying Program Through 2023

[Scottmichaelj]

Congress Votes to Extend Warrantless-Spying Program Through 2023

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-votes-extend-warrantless-spying-175145063.html?utm_content=buffer2f797&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Lets keep the topic civil and all politics out of it.

 

It appears that "warrantless" spying is here with the reasoning of keeping Americans safe from "foreigners" and "terrorism" (sometimes both being the same). This is why its critical to keep on top your privacy rights and don't feel ashamed when you do everything in your power to keep your information private. This can be as simple as refusing to give your social security number to the dentist and doctors. Don't be complacent and a sheep giving into the "nothing I can do about it" camp.

[paulbates]

Agreed on PII. I simply don't give out PII at providers that has no related business purpose.. they do not need my SSN or DL. I ask myself "why?" for each field. I leave those fields blank, no comment or explanation, on paper forms when starting at a new provider or local urgent local care when traveling. I don't mention it when handing the clipboard back. I've never been called on it.  

 

I do not allow my licence to be scanned.. I tell them its against my policy

 

Also agreed on 'do what you can' with your own network, systems..HA technology. As we've discussed elsewhere here, I've started locking down critical communications on my LAN, moving more thing to guest or relocating to DMZ.

 

Paul

[MWareman]

Just another reason to do as much as possible onsite, and not rely on the cloud as much as possible.

 

I’m considering moving my personal email back to my home network (since my ISP is OK with me doing this). This may just be the straw that causes this.

[MWareman]

I do not allow my licence to be scanned.. I tell them its against my policy

 

Best Buy wanted to scan my DL when I was returning something, unopened and with a receipt.

 

I said heck no. They told me they would deny my return unless I consented.

 

I said put the denial in writing, I’ll send it to my credit card company and they will likely do a chargeback under the terms of my credit card agreement.

 

Only difference, if they process the return now they will get he product back...

 

They complained a lot...but did the return...

[apostolakisl]

When a doctor accepts a patient's insurance, they are obliged to prove that the person presenting the insurance card is the person represented by the card.  That is why they get the DL.  It is not an uncommon form of identity theft.  It is also not unusual for a person to fraudulantly share their insurance, which is still identity theft (only that in this case the "victim" is complicit).  In the event that the insurance company alleges fraud, they will take the money back from the doctor.  There is little the doctor can do with no proof of identity.

[Scottmichaelj]

When a doctor accepts a patient's insurance, they are obliged to prove that the person presenting the insurance card is the person represented by the card. That is why they get the DL. It is not an uncommon form of identity theft. It is also not unusual for a person to fraudulantly share their insurance, which is still identity theft (only that in this case the "victim" is complicit). In the event that the insurance company alleges fraud, they will take the money back from the doctor. There is little the doctor can do with no proof of identity.

IMO there is a distinction between “proving identity” and “storing” a scanned copy of my drivers license. I don’t mind proving my identity. However I don’t think they need to STORE my proof.

 

I am not going to go on a crazy rant. We all have comfort levels we are ok with. I won’t try (nor will I) convince you (anyone) to stop. I personally don’t like it, and overall my point is just give it a thought before following blindly. Majority of forum members here are all smarter than the avg bear.

 

It’s sad to think socially “profiling” is “BAD” (or not politically correct) however the governments actions with this passing shows that if your a “foreigner” (whatever that is defined as) you can be profiled and spied on, and that’s “OK” by our government.

 

Interesting times for privacy.

[paulbates]

I agree scott,

 

I may have worded my first response stronger than meant.  Providing proof to be typed directly in to an eligibility system makes sense an protects me as well, got that. The provider then has to decide the risk of proceeding with service.

 

Having said that, no reason to write it on paper and store it after care has been provided and I've left. It does create a different risk where that information is compromised and a different type of identity theft happens.

[apostolakisl]

IMO there is a distinction between “proving identity” and “storing” a scanned copy of my drivers license. I don’t mind proving my identity. However I don’t think they need to STORE my proof.

 

I am not going to go on a crazy rant. We all have comfort levels we are ok with. I won’t try (nor will I) convince you (anyone) to stop. I personally don’t like it, and overall my point is just give it a thought before following blindly. Majority of forum members here are all smarter than the avg bear.

 

It’s sad to think socially “profiling” is “BAD” (or not politically correct) however the governments actions with this passing shows that if your a “foreigner” (whatever that is defined as) you can be profiled and spied on, and that’s “OK” by our government.

 

Interesting times for privacy.

It is all he said she said when the insurance company does a charge back of perhaps 10's of thousands of dollars (or more).  The insurance company will laugh when you tell them "my receptionist swears she looked at the DL".  

 

If you don't like it, you have the option to pay cash and file the insurance claims yourself.  

[Scottmichaelj]

If you don't like it, you have the option to pay cash and file the insurance claims yourself.

Don’t we already? Being self employed I can tell you first hand how expensive health insurance is, how horrible it is, and high my deductibles are.

 

So I rather cross that bridge if/when it would come to that in your scenario. Not sure making and storing my drivers license will really stop anything illegitimate.

 

Like Paul, I don’t write anything down, make sure I see a privacy notice, and take steps before giving my info at will. Always better for them to ask for more than give them too much.

 

We are digressing into your scenario again but how do the doctors/dentist prove the social security number or info is even correct? That’s why illegal immigrants are employed here in the USA and getting healthcare and other government benefits. There’s no checks and balances. Which goes deeper into why we need to fix these issues while keeping our privacy intact.

 

At the end of the day I am just afraid that this NSA spying is now allowing the government to profile people and “interested parties” (possibly US citizens) could/will have their privacy violated with no way to protect themselves. All while being perfectly legal.

 

Then becomes the subject, is it ok under the cover of “terrorism” and to “protect US citizens” which is why the government wants backdoors to encryption, our devices, etc. This is a personal position where I think both sides have valid points but I am all for privacy, protection and not having companies like Apple hand out my info to the FBI. Keep everything on the device and companies hands out of my business. I also have friends in law enforcement and warrants are easy to get so I don’t feel to protected with that aspect of “protection” either.

[oberkc]

 

If you don't like it, you have the option to pay cash and file the insurance claims yourself. 

I tried to do this not long ago.  The staff at the medical clinic ended up staring at each other because nobody could figure out how much the procedure cost, nor how to handle the transaction.

[apostolakisl]

I tried to do this not long ago.  The staff at the medical clinic ended up staring at each other because nobody could figure out how much the procedure cost, nor how to handle the transaction.

Yes, well that is a whole other issue.  Market places do not function when one side doesn't understand the product and neither side knows the price.

 

My suggestion to you would be to do what I do.  Demand a price for the service up front.  If they refuse, move on.  Don't give in.  You will lose.  And in the case you function like that, definitely do not give them the information they would use to bill you.

[Scottmichaelj]

I tried to do this not long ago. The staff at the medical clinic ended up staring at each other because nobody could figure out how much the procedure cost, nor how to handle the transaction.

You made me laugh so hard! I just called my new insurance company and asked what my “first time visit cost would be” - surprise they couldn’t give me an answer and said “somewhere between $200-500” LOL “it’s up to the doctor and how he codes it” - WHAT!? OMG SMH

[MWareman]

This sums up precisely what wrong with healthcare in the U.S.

 

I once confirmed that a particular Dr was ‘in network’ (before a procedure), and confirmed that the hospital was ‘in-network’. All good. Except, apparently, the Dr is only ‘in-network- when they bill themselves. When working in the hospital they bill thru the hospital. The billing company is a third party, and though the hospital fees are processed as in-network due to contractural anomalies the doctors charges are billed differently, and this falls out of network. Nobody could explain why this makes sense, because apparently nobody had questioned them before... Sheesh...

 

My Insurance doesn’t care, but it’s more than twice the price when out of network...

 

As long as nobody understands the price at the point of service then the problems will continue.

[oberkc]

We had similar experience. We once asked, ahead of time, the cost of a service. We were told a price. We accepted and had the service performed. The billed amount was not anywhere near the quoted price. Response of service provider when questioned: sorry. We dont know why we quoted the original price.

 

On another front, I once sought out the price of some prescription medicine. I went to my normal pharmacy and asked. They refused to tell me, claining they were not legally allowed. They suggested consulting with my insurance carrier. The insurance carrier suggested I ask the pharmacy. Go figure!

 

I have similar feelings about medical billing process.

[MWareman]

We had similar experience. We once asked, ahead of time, the cost of a service. We were told a price. We accepted and had the service performed. The billed amount was not anywhere near the quoted price. Response of service provider when questioned: sorry. We dont know why we quoted the original price.

 

On another front, I once sought out the price of some prescription medicine. I went to my normal pharmacy and asked. They refused to tell me, claining they were not legally allowed. They suggested consulting with my insurance carrier. The insurance carrier suggested I ask the pharmacy. Go figure!

 

I have similar feelings about medical billing process.

How is this even legal?

 

Buying something where the seller is legally prohibited from telling you the price in advance...

 

Giving you a quote for service that is not in the realm of reality, and having to bind yourself to who-know-how-much because they cannot be held to the quoted price.

 

It’s a crazy world we live in. It’s tempting to give in and move the the GWN...

[paulbates]

I recently consulted on a pharm benefit management system. The requirements in this regard were interesting. You've heard of "spread"..the difference between the bid and the ask price. In this case, it extends from the payer through the pharmacy counter to the drug company. Less of a line and more of a triangle. Its known as "spread on spread". Seriously made my head hurt.

[Scottmichaelj]

Went in for my “free annual physical” last year but needed a new prescription on an inhaler, doctors response was “sorry we can’t talk about that this is a physical only. Happy for you to make an appointment for you to come back” - of course at the “imaginary flux rate” of whatever he codes it at or the billing office and more of my time off work. Fine. I leave. Two weeks later in the mail is a bill. Call up and start asking questions about the line items. “Oh your insurance does cover the act of drawing your blood, only the lab work” - wait what? How do you get it to test without drawing it? Then another line item to handle my, “sample”, $43! Again, what? How’s it going to get to the lab and why is there a charge to handle it? There were a few others just as bad like the bandaid (of course it was just tape over a Cotten ball) and something else. So my “free physical” wasn’t free and all said and done they wanted another $100+ from me. I argued with the billing department to get it waived. The front desk and nurses say “oh yeah your covered” then billing gets involved and you tell them what they said and their response is “every insurance is different” lol What’s the point of giving them my insurance card? Can’t they look it up and tell you before you walk in? It’s almost seems like this should be illegal. You go in and then a bill shows up but they are all in the right because you signed at the bottom of the form that you agree to pay the extra fees not covered by insurance with no list of actual prices when you walk in the door. Making up random line items like “handling sample” - come on! This is a physical you know what’s done and this is general routine stuff. So it doesn’t matter how diligent you are before hand they will still get you somehow.

 

Funny thing was I ran out of that inhaler (was mad he said that and never went back) and so then I went to an “emergency clinic” who filled a prescription for 6 for me which lasted a year and they charged me $80 for the visit and gave me a “free sample”! Lol Minimum cost to see my doctor to chit chat about it would have been $200!

 

Being self employed I learned sometimes it’s best not to say you have insurance and you pay right away and they give you a cash discount. The billing is a majority of the time, less than they bill the insurance company. Again which is crazy because this is why our premiums are so high! Being in an HSA plan all expenses are out of pocket until I reach like $2,500 for the year, which I never have done. The only point to it now is for big items, like if I break something or have a serious illness.

 

Wow how we left NSA spying to sharing our medical horror stories.

[paulbates]

Now that is BS. My annual physical is covered, but I can get 'a' prescription refilled, pretty much anything I have (not much) if I happen to be out. However if it was prescribed through a specialist, I do need see the specialist eventually for a long term prescription. But I'm with a comprehensive provider, so all of the specialists are part of the same system. 

 

My company went to a HSA this year. I implemented a patient directed health plan in 2008 for a BCBS plan, so I was very familiar with them. The benefits were touted this past benefit cycle, but with the nature of my wife's health, we blow the high deductible plan out of the water month one (July). We do have a 'planning session' a couple times a year on deciding what to do when based on that, either wait.. or do it before June.

[Scottmichaelj]

Now that is BS. My annual physical is covered, but I can get 'a' prescription refilled, pretty much anything I have (not much) if I happen to be out. However if it was prescribed through a specialist, I do need see the specialist eventually for a long term prescription. But I'm with a comprehensive provider, so all of the specialists are part of the same system.

 

My company went to a HSA this year. I implemented a patient directed health plan in 2008 for a BCBS plan, so I was very familiar with them. The benefits were touted this past benefit cycle, but with the nature of my wife's health, we blow the high deductible plan out of the water month one (July). We do have a 'planning session' a couple times a year on deciding what to do when based on that, either wait.. or do it before June.

The funny thing I remember is the doctor says “I see your blood pressure is high” - I looked at him and said “well based on your response about my prescription can you blame me for being pissed off” - he moved on.

[paulbates]

Good thing you didn't ask for a second opinion 

[DrLumen]

Medical billing is a crazy racket. Like was said, if you pay cash they usually give you a discount for say $80. If they bill insurance it is like $160 but they will accept $23 from the insurance company. It makes no sense. Then they say they are losing money. All you have to do is look at the expansions of all the hospitals to know that is BS. They wouldn't be spending millions on new offices and specialist clinics if they weren't making money hand over fist. Granted the public/county hospitals are getting killed by illegals but the private places are doing just fine - at least around here.

 

As to identity privacy, if you have any credit your info is out there for the picking considering the Equifax debacle. Once I get my current credit accounts paid off I'm going to start asking all credit companies if they report to Equifax. If they do, I will go elsewhere. I may not have credit any more but at least Equifax wont have any more info on me. Talk about a clusterfudge!

 

As an aside, the conspiracy theorist in me says the spectre and meltdown hacks have been known by the NSA and intel all along.

[asbril]

I am saying this with the utmost respect (and I do not disagree with most being said about healthcare) but this is not the place. I am sure that there are plenty of forums dealing with healthcare, but this one is about ISY and related matters.

[apostolakisl]

Went in for my “free annual physical” last year but needed a new prescription on an inhaler, doctors response was “sorry we can’t talk about that this is a physical only. Happy for you to make an appointment for you to come back” - of course at the “imaginary flux rate” of whatever he codes it at or the billing office and more of my time off work. Fine. I leave. Two weeks later in the mail is a bill. Call up and start asking questions about the line items. “Oh your insurance does cover the act of drawing your blood, only the lab work” - wait what? How do you get it to test without drawing it? Then another line item to handle my, “sample”, $43! Again, what? How’s it going to get to the lab and why is there a charge to handle it? There were a few others just as bad like the bandaid (of course it was just tape over a Cotten ball) and something else. So my “free physical” wasn’t free and all said and done they wanted another $100+ from me. I argued with the billing department to get it waived. The front desk and nurses say “oh yeah your covered” then billing gets involved and you tell them what they said and their response is “every insurance is different” lol What’s the point of giving them my insurance card? Can’t they look it up and tell you before you walk in? It’s almost seems like this should be illegal. You go in and then a bill shows up but they are all in the right because you signed at the bottom of the form that you agree to pay the extra fees not covered by insurance with no list of actual prices when you walk in the door. Making up random line items like “handling sample” - come on! This is a physical you know what’s done and this is general routine stuff. So it doesn’t matter how diligent you are before hand they will still get you somehow.

 

Funny thing was I ran out of that inhaler (was mad he said that and never went back) and so then I went to an “emergency clinic” who filled a prescription for 6 for me which lasted a year and they charged me $80 for the visit and gave me a “free sample”! Lol Minimum cost to see my doctor to chit chat about it would have been $200!

 

Being self employed I learned sometimes it’s best not to say you have insurance and you pay right away and they give you a cash discount. The billing is a majority of the time, less than they bill the insurance company. Again which is crazy because this is why our premiums are so high! Being in an HSA plan all expenses are out of pocket until I reach like $2,500 for the year, which I never have done. The only point to it now is for big items, like if I break something or have a serious illness.

 

Wow how we left NSA spying to sharing our medical horror stories.

YES YES YES!!!

 

Don't give them any ability to bill you.  You pay cash and you pre-negotiate the price and the service.  More and more doctors are realizing that patients respond well to this.  I have insurance, but I don't tell them I have it.  

 

It is my contention that for all non-live saving time-critical emergency visits, that the patient must sign a contract itemizing what the charges will be PRIOR to the service being rendered.  There are very few medical services that someone needs that can't wait a few weeks and even fewer that can't wait a few hours.

 

Finally, the gov't should standardize the prices for all life-saving time-critical emergency interventions.  Otherwise, the gov't should stay out of it.

[Scottmichaelj]

I am saying this with the utmost respect (and I do not disagree with most being said about healthcare) but this is not the place. I am sure that there are plenty of forums dealing with healthcare, but this one is about ISY and related matters.

This is the coffee shop section so anything (within the forum rules) goes. This started as NSA spying, then moved to privacy and then further into how different companies etc “store” our private info and best protections, which in turn became about the dysfunctional healthcare system.

[Michel Kohanim]

There's a Chinese proverb: "Once bitten by a snake, he/she is scared all his/her life at the mere sight of a rope.”.

 

Having first hand experience of witnessing, on this very forum, many political discussions quickly devolving into virtual fist-fights, makes me an ardent supporter of asbril's sentiments!

 

With kind regards,

Michel